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So, I know a lot of people hate Wal Mart, and I get it, I do. But here's what I don't get and wish I had an answer for. When you go into almost anywhere from Target to Gucci and look at the labels, they all say "made in China/Taiwan/Vietnam/etc". Just because these companies didn't have a documentary made about them does not mean that they don't exploit workers in 3rd world countries just as badly. The company that makes Mac stuff has had 8 suicides this year (Foxx Con) but no one seems to complain about the iPhone. Someone please explain to me why Wal Mart gets so much crap?
I think the difference is in how Wal-mart treats their employees, and also how it undercuts competitors, which are often locally owned shops. Pretty much every brand out there uses overseas labor (those $2,000 wedding gowns? Sewn by somebody making around $65 a month in wages. Seriously). I think that there is a long ways to go for all companies in that respect, but because of Wal-mart's size and influence on the global market, it goes so much deeper than that.
Crayfish got it right. My major issue with Wal-Mart is how they treat their employees.
They pay their employees very low wages and their benefits package is dreadful. There have been allegations that they've forced employees to work off the clock and denied them overtime pay or breaks. They've been accused of gender discrimination and of breaking child labor laws.
I also don't like the fact that they refuse to sell certain books, magazines, and CDs, but they have no problem selling firearms.
You should watch the HBO show Bullshit with Penn and Teller. They have an episode on Walmart which pretty much debunks what most people complain about with Walmart. Walmart is touted as evil by companies forced to use unionized labor. Walmart doesn't have a laborer's union, which is one way they keep their prices down. I won't go into everything they said on the show, but Walmart is a basic capitalist company like any other. I agree that the company is unfairly marked.
(Disclaimer: I haven't read danadelphia's post, so I'm not sure what your title is referring to.)
I see what you mean. Walmart is not the only corporation out there that really needs to shape up its act. However I think Walmart is special for many reasons and yes one of those reasons is that Walmart is more exposed...
It is one of the LARGEST and most shopped retailers in this country. Therefore its practices are exponential and much farther reaching. It can force a lot of companies' practices because for many, if you don't sell to wal-mart you lose the market.
It is one of the LARGEST employers in this country. Its track record for employee treatment is awful.
Walmart is much more pervasive than many other big stores. They are building on the periphery of every community. I grew up in a small town with walmart on the periphery. It has forced out small businesses and people are getting wise and fighting back with their consumer purchases and blocking the store from expanding because they want local businesses.
I'll agree that in many respects Target is similar.
Why is unionization so demonized? Unions played a crucial role in our country!
And because unions are so vehemently kept out of Walmart, they are more free to abuse workers!
The problem with WalMart is their scale - they are the nation's (world's?) largest retailer. To get the cheapest products for sale, they have to get the cheapest wholesale products – so they buy from the lowest bidder worldwide. The cheapest goods are never going to come from American workers – or from non-exploited foreign workers. If you want American made goods, and American manufacturing jobs back, you have to pay for it – which sadly, not tons of Americans are willing to do.
They are very anti-union, and many grocery stores across the country are unionized (WalMart is also one of the largest grocery stores now). When they put unionized grocery stores out of business, it’s not just jobs lost – it’s good jobs with benefits/pensions lost in favor of low-paying jobs with little/no benefits. Whether you’re pro-union or not, unions offer employee protections, high wages and better benefits that WalMart doesn’t offer. They pay low wages to their employees, and because the pay is so low employees are eligible for all sorts of state and federal aid that they wouldn’t be eligible for if the corporation paid more living wages and paid for health coverage. We get cheap goods, and in exchange basically subsidize higher rates of housing assistance, TANF (“welfare”), state paid school lunches, food stamps, etc.
I’m sure the Gucci bags made in China are made by exploited workers, and yeah, that’s not cool. But Gucci and Mac just don’t have the market share that WalMart has, and don’t impact workers and communities the way WalMart does.
@MightySapphire: Thank you for pointing this out! Wal-Mart is absolutely unfairly targeted. My husband actually worked there as a cart boy when he was in high school. Years after he worked there he got a notification trying to get him to sign on as a petitioner in a law suit against Wal-Mart based on unfair break time policys. Basically every employee would make like $16 and the lawyers would get paid millions, simply because they targeted a major corporation. My husband was perfectly happy when he worked there and felt he was paid and treated fairly. It's easy to target Wal-Mart because they are so successful. This is a capitolist economy, we function based on a supply and demand model. They obviously will try to price cut where ever possible (without consideration for competitors.. because they are just that, competitors). They are a publicly traded company which has a responsibility to their shareholders to be as profitable as possible. Don't get me wrong.. I don't love Wal-Mart and I don't shop there very often, but I'm a business student and I have done plenty of studies on them.
@danadelphia: You are absolutely correct! I had the misfortune of working for Wal-Mart for 2 years. Because I was a woman (and even though I had more education) I was started out $0.40 per hour less than the high school boy that was hired with me. I was skipped over for breaks and when I complained they made me wait even LONGER. I was told that I would be getting 32 hours a week and they dropped me to 12. I was also denied the opportunity to opt in for insurance (on my measly $75 a week) due to a pre-existing condition and they threatened to fire me over my health. Wal-Mart can go to hell as far as I am concerned.
@Bamboo: We were threatened with employment termination if we decided to form a union and one of our "training" videos was dedicated solely to demonizing unions. It's really criminal.
@Bamboo: Unions are demonized because the union leaders are out for their own money, not their employees. My experience with unions was when Safeway had a strike back in the 90's. My mom crossed union lines to work there as a cashier for $16 per hour. A freakin cashier making that much!! And what was the strike for? To demand dental coverage for their BAGGERS among other things. That's just BULL$h!+. And Safeway eventually had to cave because they were losing so much business because no shoppers wanted to cross the noisy union lines. And they never really recovered from that, and to this day Safeway has the highest prices nationally. The unions KILL companies by making UNREASONABLE demands which force the company to comply or go bankrupt.
A union should only do the following:
Unfortunately they don't do that, and it is the consumers who suffer. If I ever really needed a job, I would work at Safeway, so I could get my medical/dental and triple the minimum wage to do a simple job requiring ZERO training.
@Moose1209: My BIL worked for Walmart, and he never had any issues either. He felt he was paid fairly, promoted fairly, scheduled fairly. He wasn't sure he would be since he's gay, but it was never an issue.
I think Walmart is often accused of systemic problems, but the problems are probably not systemic but isolated to regions. (Some regions treat women unfairly as a whole, some treat certain races/ethnicities unfairly.) Perhaps the "problems" at Walmart are actually cultural problems here in America.
gabrielleelise1981 wrote exactly what I was going to say.
It also drives me nuts to hear people say keeping workers from becoming unionized is a good thing. (Well, it IS a good thing - for the Walton family's bottom line.) I understand that some unions are run badly, just as some corporations are run badly, but the fact remains that without unionization, we'd still all be working 12 hour days with no weekends and no minimum wage.
There's a middle ground between unions taking employees' dues without giving them anything in return and companies being free to run roughshod over employees who can't quit in protest because they need the job to pay the rent. Unfortunately, the word "union" has been hijacked much like the word "welfare", and now it just causes a knee-jerk negative reaction in people and shuts down discussion before it even begins.
@madcat: I completely disagree. Perhaps VERY low skilled workers (like the majority of employees at Wal-Mart) would be working longers hours without unions. But not all of us. I work in an industry that is not touched by unions and I work fair hours, for plenty of pay, with excellent benefits. To understand the negative side of unions all you have to do is look at the total destruction of the auto industry in the USA. Their union members would rather LOSE THEIR JOBS because the company goes bankrupt than agree to a pay cut. Probably not the best system in the world.
Mightysapphire - Why is it so outrageous to offer dental coverage for baggers and good wages for cashiers? It means that they have more money left over to spend on other things, which helps the economy.
It seems that Safeway's union leaders did for their members exactly what they're supposed to do - they got their employees better benefits and more money. Not sure how that makes them a good example of a bad union.
Unions are responsible for the state this country is in right now. They have priced themselves out of the market and that is why so many jobs have been moved over seas and that is why the unemployement rate is so high. Why would a company make something in the US when they can cross the border to Mexico and be able to pay a fraction of the wage. I'm not saying it is right but it is true.
Moose1209 - a) It's great that you get paid well and get good benefits without needing to. So do I, because I'm lucky enough to have found a job with a company that provides them. Most people aren't so lucky and they need collective bargaining to force their employers to pay them fairly. I don't think it's fair to say that because we don't need that, nobody does.
b) The evils of the auto workers union is one of the biggest myths out there. The stories on how auto union workers were making $70 an hour have been completely debunked. The $70 figure was based on cost of benefits for all retirees, the cost of current worker wages, and the cost of current worker benefits, spread out among current workers only. It completely neglects to take into account the huge numbers of retirees. When you do that, average current worker wage comes out to more like $28 an hour, which is not that much more than what workers are making at Honda/Toyota/etc. Not to mention that labor costs are only about 10% of the cost of making each car. This article explains it really well.
I'm just tired of hearing everyone blame every economic problem on the people with the least resources or power to change their situation. (And no, I'm not talking about corrupt union bosses. They're as bad as the management of the companies they negotiate with.)
@mncrk09:
I don’t really think it’s fair to say that unions are responsible for the state of our economy.
Look at your state and federal minimum wages – those don’t compare with the $.25 an hour (or less) workers in other countries make. Even if workers in other countries made $1 an hour, which they don't - our federal minimum wage is much higher than that. Then take into account the added costs of operating within child labor laws, anti-discrimination laws, OSHA rules and regulations, ADA compliance, health insurance coverage, unemployment insurance, workers compensation, etc.
It’s tons cheaper to get stuff made outside of the US for those reasons - if all the unions went away tomorrow, those jobs would not come back.
It’s easy to pick on unions (and some of the complaints are totally fair!! I don’t think unions are all rainbows for this country) but it’s not really fair to say unions are responsible for the state the country is in.
@madcat-I think you missed the point behind the Safeway example. Why would a bagger or cashier be paid that high of a wage rate? Safeway has for the most part gone out of business in my region and it is due to the higher costs of their items which reduces profits and then having a much higher overhead. Same thing has happened with lots of companies.
@gabrielleelise1981: I never mentioned the economy. I was referring to the huge unemployement rates, the goverment bailouts, and the like. I consider the economy crashing to be a global issue and I don't think it is all the unions fault.
Everybody has told me that Walmart is a good company and even suggested my husband try to go work with them because they are pro-veteran and very "fair". That being said, we don't have one near us. My parents have one near them, and boy, is it hoosier! But that's my only beef with them, that sometimes they're kinda trashy, but totally depending on where you go. I like myself some cheap goods, too =]
Union workers in our shops make about $25/hour. You know what? it's a hard job. goodness knows I wouldn't want to do it, even for that money. It's hard labor. They can have it! But unions can be a good thing, from what I've seen. But it can also get out of hand, just like everything else.
Here's the thing: Unions, corporations, and politicians that work with either of these are in it for the money (profit). Unions have done some good things in the past and corporations have encouraged technology but they both are in it to out do the other. However, I think that Walmart is just one of many that have bad practices. I try to stay out of politics but I think if you get down to it, every corporation ran store does something unethical with the help of our politicians.
My advice if you have the money, is to give as much charitable contributions to your communty as possible and try to shop at very small stores. For example, if you eat meat, buy meat at a local butcher. Buy from small markets if you can, join/buy from a community supported agriculture, and buy from your farmer's market. As for goods, just consider how your wedding dress was made, most are made by those underpaid in third world countries, consider employing a local seamstress. Another thing is, there are businesses that give fair wages, they're just smaller and require more effort in searching. My fiance buys American made jeans b/c the quality of designer and name brand are just too much for crappy jeans, he pays significantly more but they last longer. Lastly, vote with your conscience...don't stick to one party. In fact, I rarely vote Republican or Democrat b/c they get a lot of dough from lobbyists and do the same unethical practices as each other.
Um, if anyone doubts the good power of unions needs to read a history book!Yes there can be corruption, but unions helped ensure safer working conditions, living wages, child labor laws and a whole host of other laws that benefitted both skilled and unskilled labor. I don't buy the woe is me line that companies pull with unions because heads of businesses become fat cats while their lowest employees can barely make it. Unions are still necessary in many industries.
If anything I wish unions had a greater presence. Corporations can lobby like crazy for their interests, why shouldn't the common people band together and challange some of that power.
@Bamboo: I was trying to say that, in the past they've helped ensure that people could have safer work conditions. My fiance hate unions, I don't mind them. I think they should exist. However, when they reach a certain size, they care less about the individual. I agree, common people should band together. My FFIL said he's forced to pay union dues to a huge union, though, b/c everyone else does, you can choose not to be in the union but the company still removes the union dues from his paycheck. It goes both ways.
Unions were great. When they were necessary. NOW we have LAWS that do exactly what the unions USED to do. Examples:
Unions used to: Laws now:
Prevent child labor Forbid child labor
Ensure a safe working environment Ensure a safe working environment (OSHA)
Ensure a minimum wage Ensure a minimum wage
Regulate discrimination Forbid discrimination
In the modern age the union has become obsolete in the face of law.
Honestly we completely disagree with each other MightySapphire. And I would argue that at the least, there are industries in which the regulation is not up to snuff and unions are still quite necessary. But, I will stop hijacking this thread.
@MightySapphire: Unions still ensure a couple of important things like better benefits and making sure people who are employed through a company are certified to do a certain profession (ex: electricians and plumbers). I hate some of the practices of unions but I also don't think they shouldn't exist. They have leverage and that's important.
I agree, some of the auto industries failings were b/c the unions drove higher wages and better retirements and these companies could go elsewhere and not pay a living wage to their employees. It's sad. I'm very concerned for the individual. Before we had companies move out of the U.S., we had companies jump from the north and south b/c of wage differences.
I hate walmart because the ones near me are awful shopping experiences. They're often dirty, full of screaming babies, and in my area seem to be a crime magnet. Around here you can't go to walmart after dark alone!
@mncrk09: I said nothing about how much they make per hour. I have never heard this $70 per hour figure so that did not factor into my opinion on the subject. But to be honest with you $28 per hour at 40 hours a week works out to almost 60,000 a year. That's pretty great earning potential for a job that doesn't require a college degree. Either way.. no matter how much money they are making my point was that union leaders REFUSED to accept a pay cut when the alternative was the possibility of bankruptcy of the employer. That's absurd. Given this sort of precedent I can COMPLETELY understand why Wal-Mart would be firmly against allowing uninonization of their workers. As Mighty pointed out workers are protected by law, they don't need unions to protect anything other than absurd pay requirements.. so there is no benefit to Wal-Mart to allow them to unionize. As I stated before Wal-Mart has a responsibility to it's shareholders to maximize profits, unionization would not be beneficial to that goal.
And what about an obligation to their employees...I'm sorry but your apathy makes me sick.
I don't think that unions are obsolete in the face of the law, and this is because many workplace injustices still exist for which there are no formal laws protecting employees. For example, in Canda, nursing is a unionized profession (I'm a nurse, so this example is easy one for me to provide - although I understand that nursing is not unionized, for the most part, in the US). Nurses working conditions are constantly pushed to the limits. We are asked to do things that aren't in our scope of practice, made to feel guilty about sick taking a sick day for fear of "letting the unit down", and working tons of overtime and extra shifts becuase of the nursing shortage. But I feel better knowing that the union is fighting to improve our working conditions and ensure that our wages compensate us for the challenges we face at work. This may not be the case for the US, a American nurse would have to comment. My example is just to show why nursing must be unionized in Canada.
With reference to Wal-Mart, I think a similar theme is likely happening. Employees are faced with poor working conditions, unfair treatment, and a non-liveable wage. Wal-Mart is right to be scared, becuase a union would force better treatment for their employees and the right to a living wage. This likely would result in increased prices to the consumer. And yes, I do understand that not every Wal-Mart is bad. But my biggest concern is not the people who worked as a cashier during high school while still living at home - its the people who DEPEND on their job at Wal-Mart for a living to support themselves, their families, and perhaps extended families. I feel this folks make up the vast majority of Wal-Mart employees, and so I can understand why they would like union representation.
That is all! Just my opinion.
While I don't enjoy shopping at Walmart (mostly because it's always busy and people don't know how to follow traffic rules with shopping carts), I don't think they are the big evil corporation that they are made out to be. The truth of the matter is that they provide hundreds of jobs to the communities in which they are located. In my area Walmart is one of the best paying grocery store/department store/fast food employers. And even if they weren't, they are obviously legally required to pay at least minimum wage. And while minimumwage isn't great, it's better than nothing any day. Additionally, when a Walmart comes to a town they bring with them more stores and restaurants that will provide more jobs. I know that I, even at my first job when I was 16, would have spoken up if I was being denied breaks or being made to work off the clock. Laws about breaks and overtime are no secret. If these violations were reported they would be followed up on and corrected.
I'm much less disgusted by Walmart selling items as cheaply possible than by certain big box department stores jacking up prices just so you can say you bought your item at their store.
I'm a former Wal-Mart employee and never had any issues. I made a pretty decent wage for a college student, got a discount on almost everything, had better benefits and cheaper premiums for insurance than I have now (and I work for the company I am insured by) and got paid a dollar an hour extra for working on Sundays and holidays. As well as vacation, sick time, etc, while I was fluctuating between working full and part time while in school. The one time that I ever remember being skipped over for a break was on black Friday and it was an honest mistake and I was sent right away when the error was realized.
I'm not saying that some people don't have legitimate issues and concerns, but I think they get way blown out of proportion. People tend to complain and make a bigger fuss about the wrongs done, rather than good.
I have a question for everyone who thinks union workers' wages are outrageous. Why do you feel that it's OK for corporations to get as much profit out of their customers as they possibly can, but it's not acceptable for workers to get as high a salary out of their employers as they possibly can? I am honestly asking here, because I am just not understanding the thought process.
@Moose1209: I would just like to point out that even though union jobs don't require a college degree, most of them do require a specialty knowledge of a profession, like carpenters, plumbers, electricians, ironworkers, etc. I find it hard to believe that being an autoworker does not require specialty knowledge that was gained during an apprenticeship. Cars are complex machines and need to be put together correctly in order to maintain safety standards.
Every Wal-Mart I've ever been in has been dirty, disorganized, and filled with people beating their kids in the shoe aisle. I'm not even kidding. I think I witness some form of child abuse every time I have to go in one (and believe me, it's not often. Like, I'm on a road trip and desperately need snacks and wiper fluid and NOTHING else is around.)
Plus, my Dad is his company's union president and Midwest VP of the International Federation of Professional & Technical Engineers, so it's been drilled in my head since childhood that Wal-Mart is Bad.
"Every Wal-Mart I've ever been in has been dirty, disorganized, and filled with people beating their kids in the shoe aisle."
I think it depends on the location. I've noticed here in Kansas City, people tend to think Walmart is "low class", and most the Walmarts here are on the crummy side. But back where I grew up, Walmart is where EVERYBODY (teachers, farmers, doctors, lawyers, everyone!) within 100 miles drives to for everything, and the Walmarts out there much nicer and cleaner.
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