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Lol...this is funny. I was just having this conversation with a friend on the phone yesterday. I always attempt to be aware of the whole PC thing...to the point where I wouldn't be wishing anyone a Merry Christmas anymore rather Happy Holidays. Same thing with my Christmas cards. Nothing that said Merry Christmas.
Then last year I had enough. Christmas is my holiday and I was tired of being PC. So I stopped. Now it's Merry Christmas. Others can celebrate their holiday, now I want to celebrate mine.
@StephinPA: My godmother has a button (sort of as a joke) that says "I Celebrate Christmas."
I tend not to discuss this kind of stuff in general social situations and only with close friends and family. I actually really don't mind being "PC" and don't find it that difficult. I guess that's because I'm really super-liberal though and am open to everyone's ideas and views.
The only thing I'll really get on my soapbox about is animal shelters/animal adoption/breeders/etc. But only in certain company and in an appropriate manner.
That's great. I am not Jewish, but if some one wished me a Happy Hanukah, i'm not gonna flip. They are wishing me well, they aren't putting a curse on me.
When people in stores and stuff say Happy Holidays, I answer back as loud as possible, Merry Christmas, so everyone around me can hear it.
My FI says the only two groups that people seem to be openly prejudice against are Christians and Conservatives. Lol.
@hotchild. It's not so much the being PC its the other person who says whatever they want and then not letting me say my piece or calling me closed minded for saying it.
Oh, the persecuted majority... ;)
It's possible that you're not coming across the way that you think you are if people are accusing you of being intolerant and closed. Is there anyone you can talk to just as a check?
If it's really not what you're saying, then don't sweat it. We can't all make other people happy all of the time (in fact, it's a sure way to tick everyone off to try!). As long as you're being civil and courteous, who is anyone else to judge?
Also, I have absolutely no problem with saying Happy Holidays. I feel it covers all holidays, including Christmas. I feel it's just being considerate to others when you may not celebrate the same holidays as them. I send Christmas cards to family and friends, but give Happy Holidays to co-workers and those I know celebrate different holidays. I feel it's only polite to do so.
@BritishShiningStar: I agree with Spaniel that maybe you are coming off a little harsher than you think...? I guess I would need an example. Like I'm thinking if a person got all up in my face about pro-life or gay marriage or one of those contraverisal topics, I would maybe think they are being close-minded or intolerant. (Not saying that's what you're doing...it's just the first thing I thought of)
I guess it's just all about being respectful to others but I can see how it grinds on you....Christianity is all about being tolerant I thought =]...I never think twice when someone wishes me Happy Holidays. Holidays make me think of Christmas stuff, anyways! I never think someone means it necessarily disrespectfully.
Then again, you do live in New Jersey...things are different here in the midwest. Let's switch =]
I'm sorry you're feeling dumped on. However, the phrase "Happy Holidays" was not invented to dilute Christmas as any kind of conspiracy or to promote crass commercial values over religion - it was invented so that everyone can feel included and greeted, no matter what holiday they celebrate. That includes the store clerk, who may not be Christian, believe it or not! There is nothing wrong with wishing you and yours merry Christmas. If someone's wearing a big old Santa sweater, wish away! But you can't, and shouldn't, assume that everyone around you is Christian.
Well, since I have a feeling *I* am the straw that broke the camel's back, let me just publicly apologize if I made you feel attacked. I hope you can understand that everyone has different views/beliefs, and that is what makes this country so great. We're allowed to express those views publicly and with pride. I wear my liberal, pro-choice, gay marriage supporting badge with pride. You can wear whatever your badge is with pride, too. I think things get complicated when people try to push their beliefs on others. Not saying you're doing that, but some people tend to do that at times. So again, I am sorry you're feeling attacked. Hopefully we can all live in peace and harmony here on WB :)
We had a discussion in one of my seminary classes about "PC," and someone said something that really stuck with me. He talked about the meanings of the words: politically comes from "polis" or "city/community"; correct means "right" - and that's what "politically correct" ought to be about - it should be about treating the people of your community right by respecting them and not using hurtful words. Of course, sometimes what "PC" can mean in our society is getting caught up in using exactly the right term, and always having to watch your language, and getting reprimanded for using a term that you thought was fine, and that's bound to stress anyone out!
About "Merry Christmas" versus "Happy Holidays" - I'm Christian (clergy, actually), but I prefer to use "happy holidays" if I don't know what the other person celebrates. I like that my Christianity is something that I *choose,* and that people have freedom of religion, and it kind of bothers me that what is to me a religious holiday is this big cultural festival of consumerism and civil religion. Now don't get me wrong, I like presents and eggnog lattes as much as the next bride - but their affiliation with the holiday that celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ seems not quite right to me, and I try to hold that in mind. To me, using "Merry Christmas" across the board sort of affirms the cultural/consumerist side of Christmas, which I prefer to avoid if possible, so if I don't know someone's religious tradition, I stick with "Happy Holidays."
@snowflake....I don't feel dumped on at all.. I'm just venting and I most definatly never for a second assume everyone around me is Christian.
I am not disrespectful to people and I treat them the way I would want to be treated. So it's the response back i'm referring to.
Sure! You certainly don't have to agree with what other people believe, or pretend that you do. But what do you mean when you say you don't want to have to "tolerate" the ideas of others? How does that translate into an actual conversation with them, for example? Maybe it's putting things into practice that's where miscommunications are arising?
Thanks snowflake, this is exactly what i'm talking about.. i appreciate your attacks
I'm really not trying to attack, I really was just trying to understand. I apologize for coming across that way.
I guess they're treating YOU the way THEY want to be treated....again, not sure what specific things you're referring to, but i'm assuming it is the nondiscript stuff?
I just want to add a hear hear to worcesterbride's comment. I agree with your view point 100%.
@Br1tSh1n1ngStar - I don't think Snowflake was trying to attack you. I think she was just trying to get a mental picture of what sort of interactions you're talking about.
The holiday season is definitely a time when it's hard not to get defensive. I know I'm always tempted to say "Actually, I'm Jewish" (even though I'm not) when I'm wished a Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays at the store. But I try and remember that everyone is celebrating their own traditions and they're wishing me happiness.
Also agree that I don't believe anyone is "attacking"...I just think an example/context could help in this situation.
@EAQ: Agree. You and I share a "badge" but everyone should wear whatever badge they wish.
@WorcesterBride: Great point of view on the subject :o)
For whatever it is worth, I don't think you have to agree with what anyone says. But I do expect everyone to be tolerant of another person's views.
I actually kinda like "Happy Holidays", because New Year's is also a holiday and it's a way of including whichever religious holiday someone celebrates along with NYE. I do agree, though, that PC sometimes gets out of hand.
There is no example to be given. I wasn't specifically talking about holidays, i'm talking in general. But since the holidays were brought up. It really doesn't bother me if people are wishing well, but we should be free to say what holdiday specifically without someone getting all crazy.
People tell me to Have a good day, am I going to rant and scream.. no, they are wishing me well. I just am sick of what this world is coming to. We are moving away from loving each other and truly caring for other people, and heading toward tolerance and stepping on our tippy toes. Frankly it scares me.
I don't Br1tSh1n1ngStar, I don't think things were better when guys in the office could pinch woman's asses and female lawayrs were only offered jobs as secretaries (true story of a woman alive and working today - it wasn't that long ago). A lot of current sexual harassment seminars are really stupid and badly done but it's definitely an improvement over the good ole days. IMO.
It's not that PC can't be overdone and stupid but the arguments you are using are so vague they can apply to extreme situations.
For example, if someone is spewing hate speach about how a cabal of money hungry jews torpedoed the economy because they hate Christians and want to drink their babies blood... that's their opinion and belief but I don't think it's tolerance to tolerate it. You see what I'm saying? It doesn't make me intolerant to call people who engage in hate speech assholes. Tolerance is not about allowing anything and everything it's about respecting people's lifestyles and not trying to force them to live life in a different way or denying them jobs or calling them names.
I don't think AT ALL that that's the kind of thing you're talking about or engage in. Please don't think I'm accusing you of any kind of vile behaivor. But the argument you put forth, kind of "how dare someone who clalims to be tolerant not like my opinion" while maybe very applicable and right in some situation you were in can/has also been used by people saying terrible things.
So tolerance is a scary thing?
Here is the definition of tolerance according to dictionary.com:
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
Sounds to me like tolerance and "loving each other and truly caring for other people" are the same thing? Maybe?
@BritishShiningStar: I was referencing this in looking for an example:
@hotchild. It's not so much the being PC its the other person who says whatever they want and then not letting me say my piece or calling me closed minded for saying it.
Holidays aside, what would be the kind of thing that a person would say to you, then you would say your opinion, and then the person would call you closed-minded?
I also don't think "tolerance" as you say it, is a bad thing. I think of it as "acceptance." Accepting people for their wants/needs, different lifestyles, varying views, etc.
Edit @EAQ: It's becoming obvious we share a brain ;o)
Wow...this is turning into quite the discussion. I love when that happens!
Since the Happy Holidays issue came up...
Speaking as someone who does not celebrate Christmas, but is often wished Merry Christmas, let me explain that perspective. When someone says Merry Christmas to me, I never doubt that they have good intentions. I know that they are trying to be nice. And I never correct someone and say something like, "Oh, well, I'm Jewish..." unless that person is a co-worker or acquaintance I will see again.
The problem isn't that hearing Merry Christmas is offensive, the problem is the implicit assumption that I am either in the majority of Americans who celebrate Christmas, or that I should, as a minority, acknowledge that my holiday is not important enough for people to be concerned about.
So no, I'm not going to flip out of someone says Merry Christmas to me, but yeah, making the conscious decision that you're going to say Merry Christmas to everyone and they should just deal with it is a little offensive.
hotchild: so I think I can think of an example of the kind of thing Br1t might have in mind, though I would never EVER claim to speak for her - I would imagine that it could easily be something like, a person who doesn't think gays should have the right to marry. And someone would tell her that gays SHOULD have the right to marry and she would have a hard time responding without the other person thinking that she was intolerant. And this is, indeed, a puzzle - in my opinion, it's not possible for people to avoid offending each other in this type of conversation because these views are fundamentally different, it's not about the way they are presented. And that's why there are members of my own extended family with whom I NEVER talk politics - we love each other, we keep quiet, and we all VOTE!
About the Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays thing. I think most people don't care and I wouldn't blink if someone said Happy whatever....the more happiness the better. If they started lecturing me on wishing a Merry Christmas, I'd just say I was trying to express good tidings and no religious conversion was trying to be made or disrespect meant. Well wishing can be done in many languages, though I guess it's lost a bit/may seem weird to those that don't understand the language.
About other stuff....I'm Christian, but even within Christianity there's a great diversity so sometimes I don't always know what the Christian point of view is. It's often more of a Church/sect's point of view. I learned a lot from church and the Bible but how I carry myself and the beliefs I hold can all be expressed independently of Biblical references (not that I never use them, but it's not the only thing I use). In addition, I know my view, even if I think it accurately represents good faith, isn't necessarily God's honest truth, so I take everyones thoughts with consideration and a grain of salt. If their opinions are expressed as an attack, some people just stink, but also some have had bad experiences with Christianity so are overly defensive about the topic.
@snowflake: That's the type of example I was thinking too, but didn't want to put words in anyone's mouth.
@snowflake - And that is a particularly difficult one to deal with! It is such a sensitive subject and opinions are so personal that it is virtually impossible to not offend each other when two people disagree. It is one of those "agree to disagree" issues, but I do think people can have civil conversations without attacking each other.
Can you give us a specific example? What's exhausting you about tolerating others' ideas?
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of being PC.. i am so tired of being politically correct and "tolerant". I feel like everyone can express their veiws, ideas or beliefs any way they'd like but if I say or express mine from a christian stand point i'm attacked for not being "tolerant" and "open"... how's that for a flip. If your so "tolerant" and "open" why are you attacking what i'm saying?
This has nothing to do with anyone on here, life sparked this rant. It did not come from a post or anything on this site.
I am all for being curtious about other people's views and ideas but I don't have to tolerate them or validate them (the ideas I mean not the person) if I don't agree with them.
Sorry I had to get this out somewhere. You can all attack me now.