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Here's the deal. From my point of view, I see the frustration I sometimes feel from waiting as a factor that makes us more likely to argue as a couple.
But, the other day my SO revealed that he wouldn't propose until such a time as we hadn't argued for ages. He feels like we argue all the time and like that isn't right and when we stop arguing we could get engaged.
I don't want to argue either, and we are always working to improve communication issues, but I'm also worried he may have too high hopes of just how easy and rosey our eventual marriage will be. Whatever, I am just trying extra hard to make sure things don't escalate into arguments at the moment. Anyway, just thought I'd share because maybe other men out there are feeling that their angsty waiting bees are making the relationship too tense for it to be an appropriate time to consider engagement. Just a thought.
@VickyAurea: I understand where your SO is coming from but it's not realistic to think that you won't have ANY arguments or disagreements, before or after he proposes and when you are married. I have arguments with my boyfriend as well, not always about proposal stuff, but it's natural! ;) you're not alone!
I understand how he's tired of arguing about a proposal (my boyfriend has told me it's exhausting, and I'm working on keeping my mouth shut!) but if he thinks that ALL arguing can just stop all together on EVERY issue that's not always feasible. You are two different people and will have two different opinions on a lot of things.
I suggest trying to drop the wedding talk for a while... :) Maybe just waiting until he brings it up. lol, We should do a "who can keep your mouth shut about proposals the longest" challenge. I think it would help out our prospective fiances a LOT.
I think communication is huge! and marriage should be easy and rosey - its also work but day to day should be a breeze. you are going to have arugements, thats inevitable but i think what really matters is the content of your arugements..its it just little annoyances like not picking up after themselves or is it something bigger like trust and communication issues? my husband and i have our disagreements but we chose to marry each other because we have the same wants in life and the same beleifs on how a marriage/family should be.
i know this has got to be really tough when you are craving engagement and he just isnt quite there yet but i suggest just laying low, enjoy each others company, dream of the future and continue waiting patiently (i know easier said than done) but try not to put too much pressure on it and enjoy the time you get to spend together - guys sometimes need a little space and time to figure out what they want, its not a decision to be made lightly but my husband told me when he finally decided to propose there was no going back he was ready and wanted to do it as soon as possible. so there is hope!
Good Luck!
Why aren't you working on what's causing the arguments instead of trying to not argue just to be engaged? Doesn't that seem kind of counter productive? Wouldn't you like to carry over what you've learned about communicating so that you have a happy marriage? Problems don't vanish once the ring is on.
@KatyElle: As I said above, I feel like what is causing the arguments IS the waiting thing.
I mean, if there's any more tension than usual (I wouldn't say there was more arguing, just more of me crying), that'd be why, because I'm having a bad time at the moment, feeling really low and insecure since I have no job, no home and (as far as it FEELS because I don't have a silly, little ring) I have no certain future. But in general, everyone argues, don't they? My SO doesn't think they do. His parents NEVER EVER argued and he wants us to be that way. Gee, that'd be nice but I don't think that's realistic.
@DaisyCakes: Hmmmm no, we don't really argue about proposals. Just about little things.
As for the challenge, maybe....... but I don't like the idea of putting a block on what I can and can't say - I quite value my freedom of expression and honest communication with my SO.
@KatyElle: And I also said "we are always working on communication issues", which shows that we are trying to make our relationship the very best that it can be to make a stronger marriage. I think you skimmed!!
@VickyAurea: No I didn't skim, I just am not a fan of having waiting conditions if they are causing your loved one to be upset, and have always said that. To me, that's somewhat of a red flag that should be worked on as far as overall communication goes. Is that more clear?
@KatyElle: Um.... no, that's much less clear. What you said before was about us working on the causes of our arguments now to build a stronger marriage later. What you said now is about "waiting conditions" and "red flags" and saying I need to work on those things instead. Not really sure what you mean.
@VickyAurea: I understand... but you did say it was because of the "waiting" that is causing arguments. I just figured it was because you were talking about proposals and maybe that is why it's causing a strain on your relationship. My apologies if that's not what you meant.
If it's just from the frustration and feeling that your life isn't where it needs to be, no certain future, no job, no home... then those are things that need to be worked on for yourself. You cannot be in a commited relationship and expect it to go well when you are not at least trying to improve yourself.
@VickyAurea: What's causing the arguments, in my opinion, is not all about the fact that you guys haven't gotten engaged yet. It's that you're upset because he's not doing something that is important to you and he's saying "And it won't be done until there are no arguments."
When I see posts like this it makes me sad, because if you want to marry the person, why are you holding it over their head when it's clearly causing them pain. And if this is happening now, what comes later on in the marriage when it's a different subject?
That's all I was trying to say, if you don't find it helpful you can ignore me :)
@KatyElle: This...
OP, IMO you really need to step back -out of your own shoes- and look at the situation from a distance. You need to slowly read what KatyElle said. She is not saying this stuff to be negative, so please don't take offense. It is sometimes good to hear outsiders opinions on things, especially if there is experience in it. Woman need to be very careful with the "waiting". It can cause many problems in relationships. I really recommend open communication with your FI, BUT I recommend you also lean on a friend/family member to help with your feelings as well, so you don't cause more pain/pressure/stress on the relationship.
@DaisyCakes: Woah. I can perfectly well be in a committed relationship in the situation that I am in right now. And I am "trying to improve myself"/my situation. That's something we're working on together, as a couple, because we are building our future together. But right now, things don't feel settled because there's so much uncertainty and new stuff and that is really emotionally straining for me. I say "me" because my SO is much more settled than I am.
I did like the challenge idea! No need to apologise. I'll get back to you on that, though, cos as I said I'm not sure that's what I wanna do - I'd feel a bit like Zippy outta Rainbow, y'know? I know TONS of bees do this though.
@KatyElle: No, that may well be the cause of problems for many bees but if you listened to what I said, I said that the strain is coming from being unsettled. A part of that is that I sometimes think I would feel more settled if we were engaged, as I could at least have one thing in my future to look forward to. The other things I can't be excited about because I don't where I'll be or what I'll be doing, if that makes sense. So I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you're trying to put me into a mould based on other things you regard as being "posts like this" without listening to what I've said is actually the problem.
@VickyAurea: I skimmed through a couple of your older posts, and just 2 months ago you wrote that he was waiting until you guys are more financially stable before you get engaged. So is it the arguing or the financial reasons that are holding him back? both are valid reasons and things you guys should both be working on.
And for what its worth, I was a waiting girl for a while. I definetly had days that waiting was super hard, but it never really caused arguments (except once, when I watched say yes to the dress for 4 hours straight...oops!). What exactly are you guys arguing about?
Also, my original post was casual and meant to just be a passing comment. Hence I was all like "whatever" and "anyway". It isn't really something that is bugging me. It was just meant as a heads-up to other bees who may not have considered that things such as tensions/arguments could be the reason their man isn't ready for engagement - when people often think it's more to do with money/timing/blah blah blah.
@VickyAurea: But in general, everyone argues, don't they?
We don't actually. Been together seven years, lived together four and I don't think we've ever had a real "arguement". I mean we've disagreed with each other, and we can certainly get on each other nerves, but we've never yelled or been mad at each other for more than the space of the conversation.
BUT. I actually asked SO once why he thought that was and he said: "I don't think we're arguing people." Which I think is true and is a big BIG part of it. Neither of us really have that personality. We don't tend to take things personally and we have pretty even-keeled personalities.
I don't think that arguing/not arguing is better or worse than the other as long as when you're arguing you're a) not doing it a ton over inconsequential sh--er...stuff, and b) you're able to do it constructively and at the end of it you're not still mad at each other/simmering with anger for the next arguement.
The only time that might not work is if he is the NOT the type to argue but you are (or vice versa). Then that might be why he's getting tired of it and wanting it to stop. In which case the person that does like to argue is going to have to make some changes...
@VickyAurea: Ok, or you could just get mad and defensive instead of reading what I wrote, but good luck to you!
@Bostongrl25: I said above we just argue about little things. Normal. Arguing is normal. That's what I'm trying to tell him. But maybe I am the crazy one and none of you ever have arguments with your SOs? Though also, what I think he meant (not sure) was that I've been feeling really low because of all those things and then that makes me cry more often. Pathetic, yes. Understandable? Also yes. As I said, I've been struggling lately.
Yep, as I said, I am unsettled, I don't have a clear sense of a job and a home and all that right now. So obviously money is the main reason we don't go get married. But as we are talking about the likelihood of him getting a major raise at work, this was the convo we had about even if we could start saving up, he wouldn't feel the timing was right when I've been a bit mopey.
@KatyElle: No, I'm really not being mad or defensive. Sorry if you think so. What do you think I misread?
@Taylor4: Oh absolutely! He's not the arguing type, I am. My family yell and scream, his parents never ever argued ever, not once. Can't imagine they ever shouted at him as a kid. But that is a real barrier to communication, actually (only in our case). Because when there is a little issue, I try to talk about it (and I am good at talking, I had to try really heard to change and learn so I don't end up yelling and screaming like my grandparents do) and he doesn't necessarily always see why I think talking things over is so important, so it ends up getting dragged out as I have to not only talk to him but also explain to him (for the gazillionth time) why talking is important in the first place. But those things are not a big deal. I'm only detailing because you mentioned. As I said above, communication is something we are always working on, in this way, and I'm happy with the way it's going. My goal is obviously that we can resolve disagreements in a couple of sentences, ta-da, no tiring or upsetting arguments.
@VickyAurea: Honestly, it seems like you think once you get engaged, everything else in your life will magically fall into place. This couldn't be further from the truth!
You need to spend a good chunk of time focusing on yourself and making you a complete person before you can join with someone to create a successful partnership.
There is no reason why not being engaged should affect your having a stable job or home. Build these things for yourself and the marriage will follow.
These two phrases especially concern me :"I would feel more settled if we were engaged, as I could at least have one thing in my future to look forward to." and "I am unsettled, I don't have a clear sense of a job and a home and all that right now."
NEVER DEPEND ON ANOTHER PERSON TO CREATE YOUR LIFE OR YOUR HAPPINESS!!!
@VickyAurea: Well no, we dont argue much. Of course we have silly disagreements (like I mentioned above), but they are generally over within 2 minutes and we never scream at eachother.
I can understand feeling unsettled, but those feelings wont change after being engaged. You should take this time to focus on yourself, and making yourself happy. If you are unhappy now, a ring on your finger will not change things.
@CanAmBride: You're right but I already know those things. Thanks for taking the time to make sure that I do, though. I don't think a ring is a fix - I admitted myself it's a silly notion but it just feels like it would make me more secure. It's a simple security thing. It's probably really hard for others to relate to how I'm feeling but the short version is that I feel way, way insecure and like a little, lost sheep.
I also don't depend on someone else - we are a couple though. My understanding is that couples do things together and build lives together. That being said, we are working together to make me a whole person - by him supporting me with the right conditions to allow me to pursue things that I want to in order to get my career to a place I'd like. That means little things, like that he gives me hugs when I have been to 5 interviews in one week and have had little sleep, he tells me I can do it when I feel like a job I'd love is out of my league, helping me carry luggage when I move cities bit by bit, you know, little things. Not me depending. But equally, not at all the same as if I were single. Because then I'd probably live in a different city and have a totally different life to the one we have built together over the past 7 years.
@Bostongrl25: I know a ring isn't a fix but I disagree that it wouldn't, in my situation, make me (only me, not other people) feel more settled. It just would. I know that it would. But it is not the be all and end all. All the other things - working out where to live and work - are what I've been focusing on, hence I am strained and feeling low and insecure, which results in me saying that an engagement would be a positive thing to take my mind off it and make me realise I have a future and it is all falling into place, bit by bit. And I also am 99.9% sure I won't be engaged before I'm settled anyway. Because as you can all tell from my SO's views on all this, he likes to be ordered and settled and at peace and he would not think that me settling into my new life is an appropriate time to propose.
@VickyAurea: I think what pp's are suggesting might be that, while you're waiting, if you were able to do other things to change this: "I'm having a bad time at the moment, feeling really low and insecure"... then waiting for the ring wouldn't seem so difficult.
This might sound silly, but having felt insecure about my future too... I wonder if filling this time with trying a new hobby or taking a class (yes, I'm talking about art classes or something like that) might get your mind off how you're feeling? It sounds like you feel like you're not doing enough to move towards the life you want... sometimes just doing something will take the edge off. (I know how stupid taking an art class sounds, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say!)
Realized I left out half of what I was going to say! I am making the assumption that you've already graduated w/ your degree or are waiting for the job you want. It sounds like you've taken all the steps you can to contribute to the life you want together and are frustrated with waiting for everything to happen. (otherwise I would have suggested working on school or a career)
Hang in there!
@jjmomma: I appreciate your suggestions, thanks, but that won't work practically right now - a class, I mean. The whole "unsettled" thing is because I am trying so many things. I'm in the process of moving cities and in a couple of weeks I will have 2 new jobs and then I'll be working 6 days a week, leaving very little time to just do basic things like settle into my new home/city/regular circle of friends/social life/balance of work and life. It's all new and exciting, in theory, but unsettling. But way better than before I got these 2 jobs and had no clue where I was heading! I may well be able to take up a new hobby a few weeks/couple of months down the line, though, when the dust has settled on the move and the 2 new jobs. I'll get gym discount with one of the jobs, if I take the job, so I'm hoping to start swimming loads. And it doesn't sound silly at all to me because doing something new feels more like growing and becoming the adult person I want to be. :)
@VickyAurea: Girl- you've got a lot going on! Don't overthink it... make sure you remember to appreciate how far you've come.
@jjmomma: I know I have! Hence I am feeling like a lost, insecure sheep and I just hoped that bees might understand. It seems I have somehow caused people to think I am mad at them/crazy in general so now I feel even more confused and head-fuzzy than I did to begin with! But ha, yeah, I am currently visiting about 6 cities every week, always on trains, always at interviews, always sleeping somewhere different. It's draining. And the whole world can think I'm crazy if they like but I just want to go to bed in the same place each night and know that the next day I have a definite job and I'll wake up next to my definite FI. It's just my big, fancy dream of a settled life. I am so sick of trains and alternating beds.
@VickyAurea: It's tough to convey exactly what you mean over the internet; I think the intention was good. So, you guys aren't for living together before marriage?
@VickyAurea: I feel ya girl! I have no idea where I'll be living or working in 4 months time. And it's frustrating that men usually seem to want to have money sorted and THEN will propose whereas for women, we want that relationship security and the money thing is irrelevant to us (usually). So we get all upset about the proposal not happening and the men think 'well, of course it shouldn't happened until i can financially provide... blah blah'. This caused a lot of problems for me and FI as well before we got engaged. and of course, the more I brought it up, the more it pissed him off. However, looking back I realise now that he never once told me how he FELT about getting engaged, just that it was a 'big thing.' He told me what he was thinking but not how he felt - about me, about our future, about being together, etc. I think what I wanted from him was some reassurance about his feelings, not about his thoughts, and I never had that from him. Like you, I also have to explain to him why it's important to talk and communicate, on top of discussing whatever issues it is we're arguing about. It's very tiring!!!
yesterday the book 'the Five Languages of Love' arrived and I read the whole thing last night. I really wish I had that book a year ago and had given it to my now FI to read. Then I think he would have been able to tell me what I needed to hear without feeling 'pressured' about getting engaged.
So my point is, yes I think virtually all couples argue, it stinks that your life is topsy turvy right now, and it's totally reasonable to want some reassurance from your man that you have a future together! Just make sure that he doesn't assume reassurance equals ring and he can probably say some nice things to you as it sounds like he has some great qualities but he's better at doing tasks to help you than telling you what you need to hear?
I see two problems here - you want
1) To be engaged so that there is something in your life that is settled and makes you happy and
2) Your FI is finding excuses to not propose even though this is something you want right now...
First - you shouldn't want to be engaged simply to fix those other areas. Being engaged does not change your job situation. You should want to be engaged because you are in love and this is the man you want to marry. Second, your FI is not taking steps to do something that makes you happy. I agree with KatyElle completely - he is using an excuse and dangling it over your head. That is NOT a good sign and not what a marriage is about. It also sounds to me like he doesn't want it as much as you. What sort of person says to someone they love that they won't take the next step to show committment and love unless certain conditions are met? It's not fair to you and it shows he is not ready to go there.
Time to have a talk ... if you felt secure in your relationship there is no need to be so frustrated and upset that you are waiting. You would know he would propose when he is ready and that should be good enough. You aren't and for a good reason -he's not giving you any indication that he is on the same page as you are. I speak from experience- these were the classic sentences and lines I heard from my exs.
I think you need to be yourself while keeping your emotions under control. But do not suppress them. If you feel angry, mad, sad, annoyed, pissed, etc., then please make a point to tell him. And also tell him why. While it is best to do this calmly, I understand that can't always happen. Which is where the 'be yourself' part comes in. He needs to accept you the way you are.
He also needs to listen CAREFULLY at the arguments that you two are having. Are they engagement/marriage related? If so, duh! It is obvious those will stop post-engagement! Bring that to his attention as well. I am sorry to say this (I really am) but men are STUPID. You have to spell everything out for them unfortunately. Ugh!
@Sasha2011: LOL! yes, we do have to spell stuff out for them! glad it's not just me...
@londongal: Well said. This is the second time I've seen the book (Languages of Love) mentioned. It must be worth reading.
I understand that you just wanted to share just in case there was someone else out there going through the same thing. But I do agree with KatyElle, that's not a situation that should be happening to anyone. Engagement isn't a reward for being a good girl. That's not the purpose of it. You either want to marry someone, problems and all, or you don't.
The only situation where I could see a guy withholding an engagement when there are arguements going on is if, it's not the arguements that are an issue to him, but rather he wants to propose when you guys are having a good day but you're fighting too often for that to happen.
But if it's the 1st situation, I'm sorry, but that's kinda mean. Waiting is already causing you stress and now enagement is being used as a behavior modification tool?
Just my thoughts. Sorry you're having a rough time.
@VickyAurea: I completely understand... waiting sucks... it does kind of zap your life energy a bit. I think if we can all focus on ourselves that's a good thing and makes you a happier person in and out of the relationship :) I do think that your SO can be a bit more understanding to you.
I said above we just argue about little things. Normal. Arguing is normal. That's what I'm trying to tell him. But maybe I am the crazy one and none of you ever have arguments with your SOs?
Oh absolutely! He's not the arguing type, I am. My family yell and scream, his parents never ever argued ever, not once.
Arguing can be done is SO many ways. Disagreements, constructive thoughts and resolution - that is relationships/marriage. We are not a fly on your wall, we have no idea what your arguments entail - they can be immature blowouts/unreasonable/unhealthy!!! There is a huge difference and what you think it is or might be (self observation) may not be as innocent as you think or "Ok" because everyone argues.
@jjmomma: Yes, we are! :)
We lived together last year. And now we don't any more (yep, that's hard). And when I move, I will live with him again. I've got half the wardrobe and 4 drawers now, so..... I've made my mark, definitely. I wasn't living there because I didn't know where work would take me and because I couldn't commit financially to paying the rent, so he lives with his best mate. Soon we will all 3 of us live together.
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