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At the risk of sounding like an anti-semitic idiot...

posted 5 months ago in The Lounge
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    burris4    December 16, 2004   Illinois

    I was watching an old episode of Dr. Phil recently in which a woman was freaking out about Jewish young people marrying non-Jewish spouses.  It was a very passionate and heated topic and it has left me wondering, is this a big deal?  I know people of inter-racial and inter-faith couples marry all the time without any drama so this a issue that is common among the Jewish people?  As you can tell, I am completely ignorant of Jewish customs.

     
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    KatyElle      

    Many Jewish people consider it extremely important to only marry another Jew. Older people especially, or those who had family who survived the Holocaust feel it is very important to keep the lineage of faith and family alive.

     
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    spaniel    March 2010   Los Angeles, CA

    Yes, it's a big deal. In Judaism, religion is considered to be "passed down" from the mother's line: if a Jewish son marries a non-Jewish woman, unless she converts, their children will not be considered Jewish by most branches of Judaism (unless the children convert, as well... and conversion to Judaism is more than a declaration; there is a whole process). There is also a fear of assimilation and watering down of the religion and the culture, which happens generally when people of different religions marry (although sometimes it might not). It's particularly strong in Judaism; there is a big fear among some that the religion will die out if people don't practice/marry others who practice. I don't think that's the same thing that happens when Presbyterians marry Catholics, for example.

    I do think it's different with religion than with race. And not all Jews feel this way. In my mom's generation, neither she nor any of her siblings married Jews. And Mr. Spaniel isn't Jewish. None of it was a problem in my family. BUT. We don't plan to raise our children exclusively Jewish. If that were important to my parents, this would have been very difficult for them, and I'm sure they would have tried harder to get me to marry a Jewish man.

     
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    Miss Apricot    May 30, 2009   Minnesota

    This particular woman...no, GIRL, ('cause she acted like a toddler), was a trantrumish, snotty, spoiled witch with a capital B... 

     
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    tksjewelry    June 25, 2011   Omaha

    Many years ago, I was engaged to a Levite Jew and it was a serious deal with his family that I was not Jewish.  The Levites are special in the Jewish religion and the fact that I would not convert eventually was too much for our relationship.  In my experience it matters to some like it would with any other religion or race.  Alot of Catholic families only want their children to marry catholics.

     
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    hisgoosiegirl    June 18, 2011  

    @Miss Apricot: Yeah I remember that episode. That woman and her daughter were complete bitches. To the point that a Jewish woman from the audience came up and said what a disgrace they were and they didn't represent all Jewish women. 

    I believe they also attacked women of Asian heritage as man-stealers and other less nice things. 

     
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    burris4    December 16, 2004   Illinois

    @Miss Apricot: I take it you seen this episode.  You are right, she certainly was something.  She gave me a headache.

     
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    philabride2bee    August 2011  

    Spaniel and KatyElle described it perfectly.

    Many rabbis (but not all) will not perform the marriage ceremony. Very traditional, very orthodox people would observe mourning rituals for someone who marries outside the faith.

     
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    MaraBeth    December 3, 2011   Dallas, TX

    It's different for different families, just like in any culture--there are different degrees of observance and there is a range of values and priorities. With any group of people, it's hard to generalize.

    For my family, though, it was definitely stressed to us from a young age. I know for several of my Jewish friends as well, many of them value it for different reasons; partly cultural and partly religious. I think it's an entirely different issue than interracial marriage--the practice isn't discrimination, it's more of an emphasis on passing down the religion to future generations.

    And not to nit-pick, but most people don't consider Jews to be a race...more of an ethnic group. Most people would call something against Jews anti-Semitic, not racist.

     
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    LissaBeans    May 26, 2013   New Jersey

    To some it is a big deal, to others it isn't as big a deal.  Personally, I think it often depends on what movement a Jew belongs to.  I'm a Reform Jew, which is the most modern and liberal (liberal in terms of adherence to Jewish beliefs).  I am engaged to a Protestant.  When we started dating, my parents were not thrilled per se, but now they love him and can't imagine me with anyone else.  We have discussed how we will raise our children and will be celebrating both Jewish and Christian holidays.  I guess it really depends on the individual couple and how strong their beliefs are.  We respect each others' religions and aren't converting, but other more strict worshippers (either Jewish or not Jewish) might not feel comfortable with that.  Not to generalize, but you probably won't find an Orthodox Jew marrying a non-Jew.  

     
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    Miss Apricot    May 30, 2009   Minnesota

    @hisgoosiegirl: Yep!  She's been on the show two or three times, and every time I just want to slap her!  

    @burris4: Yeah, I love Dr. Phil, (I've been watching regularly since his days on Oprah; I almost never watched Oprah except on Dr. Phil days!).  I've seen most of the episodes.  lol

     
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    burris4    December 16, 2004   Illinois

    So is it a blood-line or religon issue?  What I mean is I can choose to convert to the Jewish faith but I can't make Jewish blood run through my veins.  Is conversion enough to get a blessing for marriage or is this an issue of ansestoral heritage?

     
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    Yeah, many cultures do this. I dated an Indian man briefly, it was never going to work out, his family wouldn't hear of him marrying someone who wasn't also Indian. My grandmother would have liked to see me marry a Catholic man (I married an Atheist!), I know Haitians that will only consider marrying other Haitians. It depends on the individual family of course, but it's definitely not Jewish-exclusive.

     
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    MaraBeth    December 3, 2011   Dallas, TX

    @burris4: I think this is kind of a complicated issue, because there are different aspects to being Jewish: the cultural and the religious. People can definitely convert and be considered Jewish (or at least recognized by most sects--like some PPs said, different branches of Judaism have different rules).

    I have several friends who married someone who converted to Judaism, and their families were pleased with that. I think that it's more about passing down Judaism to future generations than the actual ancestral heritage.

     
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    LissaBeans    May 26, 2013   New Jersey

    It's a religion issue mostly, I think.  I know Reform and Conservative rabbis will marry someone who has converted.  I honestly don't know about other movements (I guess I'm a bad Jew haha).  I would think they would accept someone who has wholeheartedly embraced the Jewish religion but I don't know for sure.  All people who have to convert have to enter the mikvah (Jewish ritual bath) to be "reborn" a Jew.  It's the discussion of the mikvah that makes me also think it is part "blood" - my mom was raised Jewish, but her mother had converted from Catholicism.  When my mom married my dad, she had to go to the mikvah because her mother wasn't from Jewish blood, although she was Jewish by marriage.  Crazy stuff!

     
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    burris4    December 16, 2004   Illinois

    @MaraBeth: Thank you for pointing that out, and doing it with such grace.  I am so curious about this but don't want to look insensitive either.  Race and religons are issues where I find it best to tread lightly.  Thanks for teaching me something new. :) 

     
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    philabride2bee    August 2011  

    Marrying a convert would be accepted by even the most traditional communities.

     
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    LissaBeans    May 26, 2013   New Jersey

    @philabride2bee:  Thanks!  I really wasn't sure.

     
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    spaniel    March 2010   Los Angeles, CA

    @burris4: It's a religious and cultural issue, not a racial one. (However, "Semitic," as in "anti-Semitic," refers to the Semitic race, but most people now use it to refer to all Jews.) It depends on who you're talking to. For many people, conversion of the partner would be enough (more likely that children will be raised in the faith). For others, the difference in the cultural background/shared culture and history would be insurmountable (but when that happens, it's no longer a religious issue, and becomes a lot more like an inter-racial marriage issue).

     
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    Dolldancer8    August 17, 2013   Florida

    remember Charlotte from Sex and the City...

     
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    burris4    December 16, 2004   Illinois

    @Dolldancer8:  Oh yea, I totally forgot about that.

     
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    Carnival_Bride    December 2012   Mid-Atlantic

    Ivanka Trump's husband is also Orthodox Jewish and she converted in order to marry.

     
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    redheadem    September 30, 2012   NYC/MD

    FI's dad is Jewish and his mom isn't, and his dad's family is now estranged from them for that reason. Frown They won't accept her.

     
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    MaraBeth    December 3, 2011   Dallas, TX

    @burris4: Of course! I think with touchy subjects like religion, people who are genuinely curious are sometimes afraid to ask for fear of offending anyone. I'm of the camp that we can all learn from each other :)

     
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    Jenn23    April 17, 2010   Philly suburbs

    My Jewish neighbor (woman) married her Catholic husband a few years back. Her parents kicked her out of the house when she was first dating him and she hasn't talked to them since. They told her since she was a teenager that she had to marry a Jewish man.

    I'm married to an Indian and we had no problems with his family accepting me. We had more problems with my dad/step-mom making racist comments about him. (Haven't talked to them since) His parents and extended family welcomed me with open arms.

    It's not a Jewish or Indian or Black or White thing. It is a people thing. Some families are tolerant of marrying other races or religions, some aren't. That's my experience.

     
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    soyjoy222    June 1, 2012   PA

    I dated a guy who was Jewish. I am not. His mother did not accept me and did everything she could to plant the seed in his brain for us to break up - all because she didn't like that I was not Jewish. His father, also Jewish, was more accepting, but ultimately went with his wife's view on our relationship. I think it just depends on the family/how strictly they adhere to their faith and all the customs.

     
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    sandiegosarah    June 16, 2012   San Diego, California

    I really second the opinions out there that it depends on the particular family. In my family (Jewish) I was always taught that it was more important to marry someone you love over any other considerations. My family has a very open nature. My mom's mom is Catholic and married my mom's dad who is Jewish. My mom had to convert to Judaism before marrying my dad (both of his parents were/are Jewish).

    I can see how it has become a strong point within the culture. My grandfather (dad's dad) actually got teared up when I said that I planned on raising my children Jewish. His goal was that one of his seven grandchildren would raise Jewish great-grandchildren.

    My FI is not Jewish. He's not really associated with any religious group. My personal thoughts (i.e. I will not speak for my community and only for myself) is that I would never ask someone to convert. Conversion is a personal decision that I personally would never force on anyone. My FI will not be converting to Judaism. However, there is one condition I have placed on him. He is required to take a class to learn about Judaism. I want him to know and be aware about what is important to me and what will be passed down to our children, even if he does not believe it himself.

    So the summation is don't listen to crazy people running their mouths on tv for attention. Props to the audience member putting them in their place. Also Happy Hanukah since this is probably an eye catching post for the Jewish-Bees. :-D

     
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    sandiegosarah    June 16, 2012   San Diego, California

    And P.S. I just discovered a great website yesterday that has a ton of helpful information www.interfaithfamily.com

    Super helpful information in planning an interfaith wedding and/or about Judaism in general.

     
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    mandypop    September 15, 2012   BAHHHston

    Yeah I've seen both ends of it...

    my Catholic aunt met and married my Jewish uncle - and was welcomed in to his family from the get-go. There was never an issue. The only compromise was that thier children be bat/bar mitzvah'd - and my aunt was fine with that.  We always had a Christmas tree and a menorah at my grandmother's house for the holidays.

    at the other end, I dated a guy briefly and we were really in to each other. I was the first non-Jewish girl he'd dated - but he had assumed his parents wouldn't care. He was wrong. He was basically told his inheritance was based on him being married to a Jewish woman. He was willing to give it time and continue dating - but that was too much for me, I didn't want to start off a serious relationship with his parents already hating me for my religion without ever having met me.

     
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    MaraBeth    December 3, 2011   Dallas, TX

    It's very interesting to see the other side of the scenario, because I'd never considered choosing to marry someone Jewish to be an issue of being intolerant, unaccepting, or disliking people based on their differing religion.

    I know each situation like this is unique, but in my case I felt it was important to me personally (not just to my parents or grandparents) to date Jewish guys and marry someone Jewish. It's not because my family forced me or because I don't believe I could find a compatible non-Jewish mate; it is just an important part of my life and who I am and I felt most compatible with people who have similar values and upbringing.

    It saddens me that some people translate this priority into something negative, which definitely seems to be the case for the family featured in the Dr. Phil episode (though I never saw it.) I can only speak for my own experience, but I view my choice to marry someone Jewish as a positive (seek a mate who shares common values, traditions, and heritage) rather than negative (being intolerant or closed-minded toward people of other religions).

     
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    Jenn23    April 17, 2010   Philly suburbs

    @MaraBeth: I don't quite get what you are saying. Your example is very different. Of course there is nothing wrong with the fact that you made being Jewish a priority and married a Jewish man. But many of us were mentioning negative cases. Take my Jewish neighbor I mentioned earlier for example. She is a fantastic person, very kind and just wonderful. Her parents literally kicked her out of the house for dating a Catholic man. I would call that intolerant. I'm sorry, but just because her parents wanted her to marry a Jewish man, doesn't mean she should be disowned! Just horrible! I don't think your priority to marry somebody who is Jewish is negative at all. I would think most religious people marry people of the same religion because it is important to them. I think that is a good thing for them and for you! Nobody here would think you are intolerant of other religions because you married a Jewish man. That's like saying people who won't date blondes don't like them. Maybe they just aren't attracted to blondes. Doesn't mean they are intolerant. But when people are shunned, disowned from family over interracial, multicultural and interfaith relationships, that is when a problem arises.

     
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    MaraBeth    December 3, 2011   Dallas, TX

    @Jenn23: I agree with you, actually. What I was trying to say is that a lot of people take something that can be really positive and turn it into something very negative. I definitely don't think anyone should be shunned or disowned by their families over their choices. I think that it shouldn't be an issue of intolerance, but in a lot of cases (like the example you gave) it absolutely is.

    The point I wanted to make is that the priority of wanting to marry someone Jewish isn't always indicative of a negative or closed-minded viewpoint, but what is upsetting to me is when parents turn it into one by not allowing their children to make their own choices.

    Every individual person is capable of making his or her own choices, and a parent thinking he or she can force a child to do something with coercive measures is wrong in any culture. I understand encouraging children to share your values, but as adults, they can make their own decisions and parents should be accepting of their choices (even if it is not the path the parents prefer).

     
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    Jenn23    April 17, 2010   Philly suburbs

    @MaraBeth: Ahh, Ok. Now I see. I didn't understand you before! I totally agree. Thanks for clarifying. :)

     

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