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I've been having a tough time lately dealing with the prejudice and the way that people treat atheism as if it's terrible. It seems like in our society it's perfectly okay to label atheism as selfish or egocentric, and I routinely have people tell me, "wait until you have kids, that'll change your mind." or "I'll pray for you to see the light."
Um, no, it won't. And please don't.
With my family and area, at least, religion is treated as a get out of jail free card. It's okay for people to tell me these things because their religion says so... but if I say I don't believe in God in front of their kids (even if directly asked) I'm a "bad influence."
How did atheism get this terrible rap? Why are we treated as second rate citizens?
-End rant- Sorry, I needed to vent. :(
I kind of think that some bad apples ruin it for everyone. For example I have an aquaintance who is atheist, but she's awful about it. She puts me down for being Christian and believes my views are stupid and basically I am some brainwashed moron.
Still, I do not have anything against your beliefs, I am more of the "whatever floats your boat" type. So long as we respect eachothers beliefs, I am totally happy.
Atheism has almost always had a bad reputation. It's seen as antisocial. When religion is the center of a community, atheists are necessarily the black sheep. But some people are more concerned about the splinter in your eye than the log in theirs. ;) I just keep my religious views more or less to myself and everybody's happy. As a non-believer, I feel no compulsion to proselytize.
Honestly, its something that rarely comes up for me. Northern California just doesn't have a public display of faith culture.
But I've found that if someone crosses the line, looking them straight in the eye and saying "that is offensive, and I don't like that," will put an end to it. People are so rarely confronted about their rudeness, and if you do it in a way that is not an invitation to debate, but a simple rebuke, it really sinks in.
Also, I will speak up about any rudeness, not just something directed at me. Its amazing, no one says racists or bigoted speech about anyone around me.
I think atheists have a bad reputation because people believe that if you don't have religion, you don't have morals, and you're therefore a bad person with no "inner compass". Of course, that's complete bs. I'm sorry I don't have any advice on how to deal with others' insensitive and rude comments, but just know you're not the only non-religious person who has to deal with that crap :(
And uuuugh I hate the "I'll pray for you!" line! It's like, "Umm no thanks, actually. Don't need your prayers, or anyone else's for that matter."
I guess I just have to get better about standing up for myself. :)
In the environment where I was raised, religion is the basis for everything. It is brought up at every family gathering and many everyday conversations and classes. (More so, oddly enough, when I went to public school than now when I go to a technically Catholic university.)
@Spaniel - I'm borderline keeping my views to myself (only my dad knows out of my family and my FI's) although I have gone as far as to tell them that I believe in science. We're constantly called out for our "unchristian" behaviors and literally picked out for it. So it's not a situation of just keeping things to myself, unfortunately.
@ottawabride - I'm sorry to hear that your friend acts that way. Unfortunately, there are always going to be inconsiderate people all all sides of an issue.
@monita - I think that's a good idea. I wish I could move to Northern CA for the culture alone... it seems everything I am is not "midwestern" enough - I catch enough flak for being a vegetarian!
@hilsy - have you read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins? He takes on that assumption of religion = morals and just decimates it. He never implies that religious people are immoral, but he points out how religions pick and choose what morals to incorporate in modern day religion, and what gets left out of ancient texts. It's a great read.
I think that the term "Athiest" carries with it more negative connotations than an "agnostic" because those who do profess a faith (whatever faith that may be) will automatically get on the defensive because by the very nature of the word, atheists do not believe in God or theology. A person who places great importance on their faith will be turned off by someone who labels themself an atheist because that automatically challenges their belief system, even if you don't actually say anything about your beliefs, you know what I mean? I don't think it's right, but I think it's part of why that happens.
Personally I'm an agnostic and what that means to me is that I don't make any claims to know what is true and what is not true when it comes to religion. There are so many different faiths out there and people who believe equally that their faith is the one true faith. I don't feel like any of us are in a position to know anything unequivocally about higher powers in this world. That's why they are "higher" - because they are unknowable to humans. At the same time, that means I feel also that I'm also in no position to tell anyone that they are right or wrong. I respect people's beliefs to a point - if those beliefs are used to rationalize blanket hatred or violence or are used to attack me personally, then I will tell you where to stick your beliefs.
I haven't had to deal with this too much - lived in bay area and now new york city but ahgr ahgr. I think we might have a muslim president before we have an atheist.
The morality argument particularly drives me nuts - um, thanks but I don't need a big white guy in the sky to make me care about others and ethics because I have a strong ethical system on my own, I tend to think that's more ethical than doing something because I don't want to go to hell.
And I realize the above might be somewhat offensive to people of faith but I think this is a really weird part of religion, most religions believe things like 'we are the choosen people' and people who don't do X are 'going to hell' - if you really and truly believe in your religion - it is inescapably offensive to people. Now if people are polite and don't tak about it to me I don't really care much what they believe in the privacy of their heads but I feel like we've evolved to want a society where everyone is friendly and believes different things but the vast majority of religions are just not made for that kind of thing and the logical disonnect is pretty strange. Like devout Christians who marry non Christians - I'm just so puzzeled how they can believe that their lover isn't 'saved' and be okay with that.
Atheism is somewhat inherently offensive as well - if you think there is no God than by definition you think all the religious people are wrong and probably silly but IMO that is not as offensive as thinking someone is bad or going to hell.
But atheism seems to catch more flack than the more offensive views.
And I absolutely hate the whole 'oh there are annoying atheists out there! that's why atheists are discriminated against!'
@lilyfaith: Yes, that does make it quite a bit harder. I live in a very diverse place where no one would assume I was Christian to begin with (NOW; that wasn't the case when I was growing up), so no one judges my actions in that context. I am afraid I don't have any good advice I could give... because my solution was to move!
I haven’t had much issue with this, but when I am confronted I just won’t take people’s bait, and usually just say something like “to each his own, I respect your beliefs, please respect mine” and exit the conversation. The only thing I will usually do is to point out (if the point is made) that morality, ethics and religion are not exclusive to each other.
You know you’re a good person – just remember that, and remember that the bad apples (on both sides) who are overly caught up in judging how others live their lives and making sure it’s the “right” way, generally lead less happy lives!
@lilyfaith: I haven't read it, but I'll check it out! And maybe leave a copy on the doorstep of some "well meaning" friends... :)
@Kittyachi - I agree with you 100%, and I think a big part of it comes from society's view that religious beliefs are sacred, but personal philosophies are NOT.
I think people forget the definition of atheism does not equal fundamentalism - if you show me hard, solid, scientific proof that there is a higher power, I'm not going to sit here and say, "no, I won't believe it!"
So in essence, people think of (as you said) atheism as saying that we know the secrets of the universe, know better than everyone, etc, whereas I'm saying that these are my beliefs as of the evidence we have to this day.
@Arachna - I think the stigma would go away if more people felt free to be openly atheistic. So many core figures in history were most likely atheists (Einstein, Thomas Jefferson, Darwin, etc) but we're so afraid of lack of religion that people in power are not allowed to be open about their beliefs.
@lilyfaith - I agree there are ignorant people on both sides, I feel the same way about christians who try to shove their religion down my throat. I think everyone could use to be a little more understanding of one another!
I live in an area where nobody assumes that others are Christian, and most of my friends and family either don't practice their religion at all, or only do so on the holidays. So I don't often have to deal with this, luckily.
My beliefs are similar to what @Kittyachi described. No one knows the truth about higher powers...because they're be definition unknowable to us. So I am going to have a very negative opinion of people on either extreme. I am not going to like it if you're a Christian and believe someone will go to hell because of "unchristian" beliefs/actions, whatever that means. I am not going to like it if you're an atheist who claims to know that there is no God and you just know better than, oh I don't know, the vast majority of the world's population. I think you could avoi
As a disclaimer, I feel like I've always lived in more liberal areas so I haven't been around too many people with fundamentalist religions beliefs. I could see how it would be very hard to be surrounded by Christians who are always telling you they'll pray for you and calling you out on being non-religious. I've experienced a bit of that because of the whole marrying a Jew issue, and it's not fun.
I generally make it a policy to not talk politics or religion with anyone but FI. I have very heated opinions on these so it's just best I don't get into it. And what makes it worse/funny is that FI's brother loves to talk about those two. I just smile and keep shoving feed in my face. :P 
But for the record I personally believe there is something up there. But who's to say what it is? Allah, Buddah, Jesus? How do YOU know? Have you seen that person? Just because a "book" says o? No, thank you. I need proof.
Luckily, I don't have to deal with this a lot as in my area religion is spoken of very often but when it is it is not assumed that you are of a certain religion. Also, I am doing a PhD in Anatomy and so most of my colleagues believe in evolution at the least, beyond that my colleagues views vary from atheist to religious.
I do find it funny though when someone asks what your beliefs are and you respond - "I am atheist" - there is usually a level of shock associated with the look that follows. I am very confident in my beliefs and don't care what others think about them; however, I do think it is ignorant of people to think that their belief system is "right", whether it be atheist, catholic or muslim etc. especially in the diverse populations that we live in.
I have found that my belief system has come up more since being engaged than any other time in my life. How many times have you been asked if you are getting married in a church???
@lilyfaith-I totally understand where you are coming from. Like monitajb I live in the Bay Area so there is not a cultural expectation surrounding religion. I don't really have to deal with people judging how I lead my day-to-day life, but I do feel it when I pay attention to mainstream media, particularly political media. I feel it when people make references to "real America" knowing they don't really think of the SF Bay Area as part of "real America" or that non-Christians aren't "real Americans". It makes me want to stand up and say believing in God doesn't make you a good person, your actions do. And my opinions, needs, and ideas are just as valid as those that come from a Midwestern farmer (not passing judgement on farmers, just that they are often held up as an American ideal). Sorry for the rant! I have just been thinking about this recently and this was a good space for me to get it out!
I don't believe in 'anything' because I don't have a reason too. And I'm content and happy about this! I hate that people imply I should "be ashamed" for not being a "believer"! Huh?? I'm happy! As somebody mentioned above I follow my own set of ethics and morals not because a religion requires or advises this, but because this is what my heart and mind believe!
Anyway, I respect ALL people's beliefs, but don't want others to force their opinions on me. What I want to know though is how all of you are dealing with (or are you having to deal with this?), "So what church are getting married at?" and other statements such as these. I simply say "Sheraton Hotel" and I get these "Ohhhh" and "Hmmm"! Argh!
I love that you posted this. I agree with you and your feelings 100%
Being an Athiest is really hard. I once say a statistic that athiests are considered the least trusted group, less trusted than a murderer. What?!
This is insane to me and I sadly see that it's true. Even my own mother who is not religous has told me that she thinks I shoudl say I am agnotic like her, because "athiest" just sounds so harsh and judgemental. What?! Even people who are on MY SIDE futher the negative stereotypes about athiests.
I have had very smart freinds say things like "doesn't that mean you worship the devil". What?!
It really bothers me to no end. It also bothers me how openly some people will talk about religion. There are times where I almost feel like I have to "come out" as an anthiest. It's awkward and weird.
And yes...the last thing I want it someone to pray for me or try to convince me otherwise. I once told a very evangelical person this: "Let me put it this way. There is nothing I could say that would change your mind. You feel like you DO have the right anwser. I feel the exact same way. I don't feel like I am missing something...or my life is empty. If you can't imagine anyone ever getting you to not beleive in god...then maybe you can understand how I feel. I am sure a sure and happy with my beliefs"
I get the "are you getting married in a CHURCH?" from some people (mostly my side) and I'm like no we're having an outdoor ceremony. Even "worse" to some is that I'm an agnostic marrying a Jewish man. I get it from both sides there. "Are you converting?" "Are you getting married by a rabbi?" Um, no. No I'm not. Some people even think I'm "watering down" the Jewish faith and to that, my friends, I say go f**k yourself. It's THAT kind of thing that makes me want to strangle people. You can be uber-Jewish to your heart's content, I don't care. Bully for you. But don't tell me my impending marriage is "watering down" your religion or your people or whatever. If FI really cared about being Jewish, he'd marry a Jewish girl. If FMIL cared, he'd be marrying a Jewish girl. It's always the people who have nothing to do with the situation who have the most to say about it.
It's interesting how large a role environment plays in these sorts of things. When I lived in a very religious part of the country I had difficulty dealing with people who felt called to evangelize a particular form of faith. Now I struggle to convince people that having a religious creed is not, in fact, synonymous with being a raging moron.
@teaadntoast - You are totally correct. I actually cringe sometimes when I hear some of the stuff said about religion by my friends. I am not religious, but I don't feel like I can pass judgement on religious people unless they do something worthy of it (like the morons who protest at funerals for gay people.) I think human beings are creatures of habit and when we are in our comfort zones it becomes too easy to assume that those around you share your beliefs, and thus a heck of a lot easier to offend someone.
I hate that athiests/agnostics get a bad rap too, but I think some of it is self-inflicted. I'm an athiest, but I don't think that religious people are stupid for holding their beliefs. When I close my eyes and meditate on issues, I just can't make the leap to feeling there is a higher power looking over me. But I know that most of the people of the world look within themselves and feel the presence of God. Good for them.
The stigma associated to the word athiest is that you are anti-religion. And unfortunately, I think a few very vocal athiests are anti-religion and therefore put the rest of the religious people on the defensive. My FI and I went to a couple of Athiest meet-ups to try to meet more people with similar views. I was looking to find a group that gave the same sense of community and philanthropy that comes from religious organizations, but without the religion. Instead I found a lot of the people just wanted to spend the time bashing religion. That was a big disappointment to me.
Kitty, I married a Hindu (first wedding was in November in India, our U.S. wedding is 4/17 here in PA) and I was very lucky in that all of his religious relatives didn't ask me about my religious beliefs (had been trying to plan how I was going to go about handling that) so it worked out great for me. I had to go along with many customs/rituals/traditions but I found it simply fascinating and enjoyed it. His parents don't care one way or the other about our religious beliefs (my husband isn't religious either).
The church thing was fresh in my mind because I was at a neighborhood "snow party" last Saturday (two feet of snow) and one of my neighbors said loudly in front of practically everyone, "What church are getting married at???" You know, I still don't understand in this day and age how people don't realize that not everyone is getting married in a church!!
@girlwitharing - The burden of proof or disproof of God is not with the non-believer because you cannot disprove a negative. For example, you cannot prove that unicorns DON’T exist, but unless you can prove they do exist, we assume they do not.
An atheist that says “I do not believe that there is a supernatural god that created and controls the universe” is saying that they do not believe unicorns exist. Science highly favors evolution, so from a scientific standpoint it is logical to believe that a supernatural god does not exist. Of course, lots of people believe in a supernatural god, but that doesn’t support his existence. Lots of people used to believe that leaches cured illness.
I don’t generally have discussions about my beliefs with believers because it really doesn’t matter. But I do get irritated when believers try to equate my beliefs with theirs. They’re just not the same.
Umm unicorns totally exist.
LOL
unicorn.jpg (28.8 KB, 78 downloads) 2 years old
I've never been asked what church I'm getting married in! Even without knowing the whole Jewish-Christian dynamic of the wedding. I didn't realize it was so common!
@betagrl - I don't think your analogy works. Whether God exists is something that's inherently unknowable. It's like having a closed box and trying to guess if something's in it. Some people may argue that there is, some people may argue that there's not. But no one KNOWS for sure. If someone claims that they know more than everyone else, no matter which belief they have, it's sort of an arrogant statement.
What's funny is that R and I met going to Lutheran school together. So everyone assumes we'll be getting married at that church, or that we're religious since we went to that church and school, which I believe has a lot to do with society's belief in "religious children" when really there are just religious parents. (Of course, once children reach maturity, that's a different story.)
Along with the getting married in a church and not having god in the ceremony, there's always, "oh but then it's not a real marriage." GRR.
As for the unicorn example, I think you make a good point - isn't that kind of like pseudoscience? People argue that for all sorts of supernatural things, ghosts, etc, by saying, "prove that this doesn't exist" when you can never prove that something doesn't exist.
@girlwitharing & @betagirl
I wish more people knew what the definition was of an Athiest
Atheism is the position that deities do not exist, or the rejection of theism. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence
It is a LACK of faith. "Theism" means religion and "A" means without
Athiests do not and should not claim that they know there is no god. And religious people shouldn't think that we think that. I am an athiest by the truest definition of the term. I do not beleive. I do not have faith. I do not claim to know what I cannot know. I am a science type of person and I like proof. But athiests in no way claim to know that there is no god. They claim that it doesn't make sence and no one can really KNOW if there is a god. Some of us feel so strongly that there no god...that is may seem like we "KNOW" there is no god. That is not the case. We "know" there is no god...just as a christian "knows" that there is a god. It is really just faith and lack of faith.
@spraguebride - thank you! you eloquently put into words what I was trying to (and failing, haha) describe how there is no such thing as a fundamental atheist.
There are many definitions of what people call atheism versus agnostic. I see it more as a scale where you have the two extremes - absolutely God does not exist versus absolutely God does exist. I think you're correct in that the two extremes are probably not the best place to be. However, as Dawkins said "There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?" Most people would say of course not. Of course some choose to believe in fairies, and they are free to do so, but if someone said to me "You are close minded because you don't believe in fairies" I'd say "good luck with that!". LOL!
@betagirl - another Dawkins lover? I'm rejoicing! I'm reading Unweaving the Rainbow right now.
@lilyfaith
Athiests are not a religion but we are a group and there are people extreme people in every group. I guess we could call this a fundamentalist.
Here is WA State he had a big thing last Christmas at the capitolbuilding. There was a tree, then a minora(sp?), then the athiests wanted to put up a sign. But sadly thier sign is exactly why other people do not understand us, hate us, or think we are hateful ourselves
The sign basically said that religion was stupid and bad.
There are athiests who will openly call others stupid. People who will just try to be rude. I think I would classify those people as fundamental atheist.
But there is a differnce between orthodox and fundamentalist. I may be wrong but I think that fundamentalists are extreemists who really do not represent the view of the group. When people talk about islamic fundamentalists they talk about extreme people who really don't represent what islam is all about.
I wish people would understand that there are bad apples in every group. Yes...there are some really nasty athiests out there, but that is not what athiests are all about. Please don't judge us by thier actions. The same way you hear on the news lately of muslims asking people to not just thier faith based off some crazy fundamentalists
I certainly admit that there are some bad apples in our group, but they ini no way represent what Athiesm is all about
I would consider that extremism rather than fundamentalism.... semantics, here, but isn't fundamentalism essentially immobility in a belief system? But because atheists don't claim to know anything, but rather adhere to evidence, we aren't truly stringent in any beliefs... except maybe science.
Yes, his book changed my life. I grew up in a religious (born-again), but liberal family. When I left the church, I really struggled with where I stood. I knew I disliked religion immensely (except for some of the new, ultra liberal religions like unitarian), but was really confliced about the term atheist. I considered myself agnostic, for the most part, but I had a lot of confusion that persisted (and a lot of guilt). I explored more new-agey religions, but bristled when they wanted us to sing songs about God. It just never sat well with me - something was off.
When I read "The God Delusion" I totally understood my discomfort - agnosticism for me was about sitting on the fence. I examined my beliefs and realized I was actually an atheist. A huge burden was lifted and I feel completely at ease now.
I'll have to check out his new book!
@kittyachi- I do NOT come from unicorn vomit! ;)
I guess I would say I'm agnostic-ish? I believe that there's something out there, but I just don't know what. I'm fairly certain that it's not the "Christian God" though. I generally keep my religious views to myself because I was raised in Alabama, the heart of the Bible belt, so if I opened my mouth about not being Christian, people would jump all over it and basically crucify me (pun intended) and my beliefs.
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