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Money & finance topics are some of the most difficult to navigate. I can only imagine how frustrating it is to inherit someone else's financial mistakes. That being said, you HAVE agreed to help shoulder the responsiblity, so as annoyed as you get I can see why he finds it hurtful that you threw it back in his face. Of course from time to time you're going to get frustrated, but just because it IS his fault doesn't mean it's fair for you to keep reminding him. It might be helpful to come here or call a close friend when you want to vent.
I personally take a LOOOONG time to switch gears when I'm upset. If this is the biggest fight you guys have had, maybe having the next few days to cool down and put things in perspective will be beneficial. If you're able, trying being friendly (or at the very least polite!!) when your schedules do coincide, and maybe you guys can meet each other halfway so neither of you feels like you're "caving". You don't want to go too long without discussing, so maybe leave a note about wanting to set aside a time to chat once you're both free.
I'm sorry you have to deal with this=(
@twalila - thanks for the support. I really don't keep reminding him of it, it's just in that moment of trying to figure out where the extra money to pay off the lease it dawned on me that it would have to come from the wedding fund. I didn't intend to say it in a mean or spitful way, but I read his body language after saying that and that's why I told him that from time to time our financial situation will frustrate me, but it was something we could get through.
It's definitely not the biggest fight we've ever had - but I'm usually the one that makes the first effort toward reconciliation. He does on occasion - but, on this one, neither of us were willing to budge one bit. I know something's gotta give, and perhaps after a few days, we'll be cooled off.
It just sucks because I hate that feeling when you are in the middle of a fight (that's probably why I'm always the peacemaker).... not to mention sleep deprivation! And, I still can't believe he just left without saying anything.
I like the idea of leaving a note, but it doesn't do anything to help with my underlying issue of feeling like I'm always the one to make the effort to reconcile.
Okay, first of all...((HUGS)) I'm so sorry you're going through this, because I know just how you feel. We haven't had a fight on this particular issue, but our big fights always leave me feeling the way you're feeling right now. That being said, I think both of you said things that would have been better left unsaid and you both are going to need some time to cool down. My problem in that situation, and this may be your problem as well, is that I need things to be fixed NOW and FI needs time on his own to process before he's ready to fix. This usually means I have to hang in misery until he's ready. So maybe just give him some time? I feel bad saying this, because I really can imagine how I'd feel if I were you right now, but maybe it's best if you guys can't talk about this for a few days. But I think you need to do something in the mean time so he knows you're not "not speaking to him." I like the note idea, or maybe a text, or an email, or something saying something like: I'm feeling really sad about what happened, and I really want to talk about it. I know we're both busy for the next couple of days, but I'm hoping we can talk on _______. Good luck, and come back if you need some support!
We have these types of financial blow-outs too, and FI and I are in the same type of "upside-down car loan" situation that you are. It's so difficult trying to merge finances and take care of debt. For example, his mom left us $10k in loan debt and it's a constant fight about if we should save money, use it for wedding stuff, or pay down debt - and we don't always see eye-to-eye.
I think you need to take a long, hard look at what you want for your future; and if you want your future to include him, ya'll are going to have to reconcile. Start all statements with I feel ___ when you ____ instead of blaming him right away. I know it's difficult, but own up to your mistakes and he will undoubtedly apologize for his, too. Maybe practice some healthy conversation disucssions and try to set mutual goals - that you can BOTH compromise about!! You are not alone in dealing with big fights, especially about finances!! Good luck!! :)
Me and FI have learned sooooo much from each other from reading 'Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus'. We read one chapter together every night and we look at each other like 'are they talking about us?', its crazy how different we are genetically and there is nothing we can do to change the other person. We just need to know how men think, they are problem solvers and we are emotional talkers. Once a woman attacks a man's ego, he is very hurt by it and will go hide in his cave. They dont want to talk things out like we do, instead they go cool off and try to problem solve. We have learned that there are many different languages and ways to approach one another when we have a problem so it doesnt make it seem like we are 'blaming'. Seriously, get the book, its awesome to know before getting married
My initial reaction is that I actually agree with you. The debt is his fault. It's not like you're blowing up on him daily about it. You make one comment and he flips out on you? You said it was his fault this time, said it once, and he needs to accept it. You're accepting to help him out, and he needs to be more sympathetic and grateful that you're helping him by not blowing up the first time you make one comment, even when you agree that it's the right thing to do...
And I wouldn't even worry about the manhood button if he's pulling the "are you pmsing" crap.
@mrsmdphd - thanks for the encouragement and kind words. I'm DEFINITELY the 'let's fix this NOW' person! I'm ok with waiting it out and giving him time. I just feel so sad right now. Kind of like we crossed a line we shouldn't have.
@alundberg - I know you get the $$ frustration! This fight is actually making me question if I want him in my future. Not so much because of the finances, but because I can't believe he'd let me spend the night the way I did (knowing how upset I was and doing nothing to remedy it).
@tammyt112 - you made me smile with the 'cave' comment. FI is definitely a cave dweller when the going gets tough. He isn't your typical problem solver, however, but definitely a good idea to read that book together.
I did show SOME restraint last night - what I wanted to do was take the ring, chuck it at him, and tell him to sell it to pay stuff off. And, btw, I'm wearing the ring... I thought it would add insult to injury to have him come home (if he does) and see it there.
Also I second the "I feel" statements. But I still stick to him needing to own up to his debt and be grateful that you're helping him out of it in the first place!!
And the fact that you are on here wanting to work it out says that you're probably not going to make this a habit.
@jslsbride62610 - OMG - thank you!!! It feels soooo good to be understood. You hit the nail on the head. All I want is for him to be understanding of why I could be frustrated and to recognize the sacrifices I've been making this past YEAR+ on our behalf. I know he does - but when he gets THIS outrageously upset at me for my disappointement and my one comment that the 6K in the wedding account will be ziltch - it's seriously ridiculous. I feel like he needs to find his lost balls (ok, too crass, I know) and step up and be a man about it. I don't always want to be the one to rescue us. I think I have a mothering, "I'll take care of it" persona anyway... and I'm trying to not fall into patterns of 'taking care of everything'. ....if that makes any sense.
Ohhhhh...the PMS card makes me want to straight up punch him. He said it to me ONCE and now he knows better. Guys have mood swings just like we do! Where do they get off blamig PMS?? Ugh.
I think wearing the ring is a good thing. If you take it off when you fight, it seems to say (to me) that you aren't willing to work it out. From what you said above, about not being sure you want a future with him, it is something to think about (the fact that you really WANT to take the ring off)...but I think taking it off as a way to make a strong "I'm angry" statement isn't a very good idea.
I hope you guys work things out tonight. ::hugs::
I read the OP but not all the follow-up comments so I'm sorry if I"m repeating... but here is my take.
It sounds like he made a lot of really stupid decisions in the past that he's paying for now. Assuming they ARE in the past and he's not continuing to make stupid financial decisions currently (which would be a whole other fight)... there is really only so much you can say. He acknowledges he did wrong, you agreed to marry him knowing that (hopefully). Yes, it SUCKS... but there really isn't anything to be done now other than work to get his feet under him. That being said-- you're not a perfect person and I'd be frustrated too. If I were you I WOULD extend the olive branch and tell him that you understand his bad decisions are behind him and you're proud of the progress he's made in getting his financial house in order. Then just explain that even though you love him and you accept him with his set of flaws (and you have yours too), you get overly emotional about the "its not fair"aspect. Try to do better. Everyone has baggage, ya know?
I can totally relate to you here. FI has some debt. It's not alot but it's enough. lol We are getting our Tax Refund (first time home buyers credit) soon and have decided to use all of it to pay off the debt on his credit card. @ times I get upset about it and think "god maybe I want to buy what I want with my half of the credit." (I could buy lots of close with $4,000! lol) But in the end; I knew when I accepted his ring that he had this debt. I basically "signed on" for it when we got engaged and bought our home. I knew then that we would have to work together to get rid of it. I try and think of it in the way that We are BOTH going to benefit from his debt being paid off. Once those payments are gone we will have lots of extra money each month to save towards things we want and just to have a back up stash. To me that is more important than sticking him with it and making him feel miserable about it. (Your FI has proven that he feels guilty about the debt or he wouldn't be so touchy about the subject) Even though yes it is HIS debt; we're engaged and I've committed to marrying Him; His Junk & His Debt! In the long run you will benefit from his debt being gone!! Trust Me!! Hope that helps give you a different perspective!
@littlebug - thanks for being on the anti-PMS card bandwagon :) and for the kind thoughts. You are right about the ring - I knew I was doing it solely out of anger, and that wasn't right.
@CorgiTales - you aren't repeating at all - but, I feel like I've already had that conversation. I did know about the debt pre engagement and he isn't incurring anymore. I have praised him to no end for making changes and efforts to make things right. Trust me, I'm his biggest cheerleader (as it should be!) What I thought should have been a rational conversation went south for a reason that's beyond me. I know neither of us is perfect, but I felt like he got upset at me for getting frustrated (and it really wasn't even HUGE frustration!!!!) instead of understanding why I would be sad the wedding fund is kaput.... :(
@Lacylust - thanks for sharing your experience. I 100% agree with you - it's our debt now and our issue to tackle and the sooner we get over it, the sooner we can move on. That's the frame of mind I was coming from with him - maybe he just took out his feeling bad about bringing in so much debt to the relationship out on me - but, if that's the case - he needs to step up - don't you think?!
It will work out, everafter. I actually think that it's a good thing that you had this fight before you are married. I think it's important to understand each other's resolution skills and habbits. The fact that you didn't take off the ring is huge in my opinion. I think we all think to ourselves...I can't do this during certain moments, but that's not a bad thing because thoughts don't equal actions. You are commited, you guys will work this out and you'll be a better couple for it.
Hang in there!
1 thing that will stick with me from couples counseling if that "problems or fights can take days to work out". Not everything is going to be talked about and worked out in 30min. I know it's hard and you don't want to be the one going to him and talking first. But I think it's best if you approach him and say something like "I really want to talk about what happened, when is a good time for you?"....Or you assign the time to talk....something like " Can you meet me in the livingroom at 8 so we can talk about what happened". It always helps me and my guy to sort things out...gives us time to think and not have anger...Because when you are both angry...bad things are more likely to be said. Plus I think in his mind...he is looking at himself as a "failure". He needs to know that people make mistakes and they live and learn from them....and sometimes they need someone like you to help them get thru it... Hope this helps at least a little...
Ok, in the beginning I was tempted to give advice that everyone else has given.
But honestly--I'm with you on this one. Wait it out, sister. Yes, it can be hurtful sometimes to feel so guilty/insecure about money (and I do it sometimes to FI--I'm the one in debt and the one that gets touchy), I realize that it is MY fault, that I am paying it off and that unfortunately, he is going to be disappointed in some things.
I think the biggest thing that helped us is that instead of thinking of it as my debt or his debt or money or whatever, we just think of it as "how are WE going to fix the situation?" While you may have been making that comment that you made out of frustration even in the mindset that it's a "we" thing--saying "we have no money in the wedding account now, that sucks" could be construed as a less of a "we" thing at that point.
Overall I think he was overacting and I think maybe what you said came across the wrong way. I think after you tried to fix it with him (telling him it was the right decision to do it, and you knew that) and he kept blowing it up bigger and bigger, it then became HIS problem and not yours.
Good luck, and I hope he comes around after work. It sucks to be in this situation, but how you two resolve it will make the difference in your relationship!
I think a lot of times that blaming someone with financial difficulties is like kicking them in the balls. Seriously, men are taught from the time they are born that they will be responsible for a family someday and they will have to provide a home for them. His debt issues are a constant reminder that he's just not good enough for you, and throwing it in his face is a pretty big insult. I don't think you are wrong for feeling the way you do, finances are ALWAYS a strain on a relationship. But I also think that the reason he's so mad is that you pointed out the obvious. Were you correct? Yes. Were you right? No. It's pretty hurtful to throw people's past bad decisions in their face, and I'm sure he's feeling pretty bad about his situation right now. And while you wanted him to come in the bedroom to talk, he wanted to sleep on the couch, possibly to avoid saying more things that you would both regret. I think that you should extend the olive branch on this one and apologize for calling him out. He'll probably apologize too, but you both really need to sit down and talk about how you're feeling. He probably already knows that you are frustrated and why, and you need to hear him acknowledge that! (Men are so dense sometimes...I think if he realized that sometimes HE needs to be YOUR cheerleader too you wouldn't feel so frustrated about it!!)
It sounds to me like you are more hurt about the way he's not talking to you and notinitiating a reconciliation than about the money issues themselves. I know that for me sometimes I need a long cooling off period before I can get out of my emotional haze and into a place where I can have a productive conversation with my FI after a fight. It's very hard for him to give me space, but I really need it to clear my head. If I don't get my cooling off time, I end up reacting out of emotion(fear, anger, hurt) and am prone to say things that are hurtful. So I agree with some of the posters above that you need to give him space to come to you when he is ready even if his timeline is longer than yours.
One other thing I wanted to point out is that I think you changed the rules on him without telling. In the past you were the one to initiate a reconciliation. So you have trained him that if he waits long enough, that you will get the ball rolling. Dont' get me wrong, I think you are totally justified in wanting to get a better balance. But you need to tell him that or he won't know that as of this fight the rules have changed.
For the record I totally understand why you are hurt and your need for validation from him of your sacrifices.
@ everafter; yes I do think he needs to step up (It sounds like he's trying to by selling the vehicle). However; I also understand how upsetting it could be to have someone scream "It's All Your Fault" in your face when our feeling down about a situation. I think deep down he realizes it is his fault; but you know; it sucks to have your mistakes thrown in your face. & by you saying "there goes our wedding fund" he knows that the underlying issue is that it is because of him and made him feel even more down about the situation. And you guys did decide together that using that money was the best solution. (even though it does suck) I sympathize for you; don't get me wrong. It is a sucky situation; but sometimes your Love for someone has to stand stronger over your pride. Or you have to decide if your Love IS stronger than your Pride. If it's not then that's another situation in itself. I hope you guys can come to peace soon & get on your feet!
I have to echo MightySapphire's comments above. He is not proud of his debt and all of his "issues" and probably hates the fact that he has to drag you into them. He's beating himself up about it enough on his own. Your comment about, "there goes the wedding fund" was hurtful and really not necessary since you guys had ALREADY decided to use the wedding fund to get out of the car lease. He probably thought you were in agreement on that but by you making that comment last night, he now is telling himself using the wedding fund is a bad idea b/c you're going to continue to hold it over his head. No guy wants that.
If you're going to be supportive, you need to be 100% supportive. You can't say one thing and then a week later make snarky comments. He's never going to know what to believe. I think you really need to apologize and offer the olive branch.
Also, you two are going to be married and make a TEAM. It's better you go ahead and start thinking like a team now and not thinking about your individual interests.
It sounds to me like this is less about the financial stuff (since you've talked that over pretty thoroughly) and more about learning how to fight and how to make up. You both said things you shouldn't have and over-reacted, but this won't be the only time that happens. Now is the right time to create good patterns for making up. I don't know what those should be, exactly, but I do think you shouldn't be the only one apologizing. Wait until he is ready to apologize, too. Maybe if you're doing pre-marital counseling you could get some tips on how this can work best. Good choice to wear the engagement ring today and not escalate things. Good luck!
UPDATE: Just got a call from FI at work - I couldn't pick it up and it went to voicemail. He left me a sweet message apologizing for last night and saying that maybe we should wait to sell the leased vehicle and the he was being selfish. He also said that he wouldn't be coming home and was going to spend the night at his mom's. :(
I called him right back and apologized as well and made it clear that I wasn't trying to give him a hard time about finances. I also told him that he should sell the leased car and that I was totally fine with making up the difference. Funny thing is, he brought up some interaction from earlier in the evening (when he was on the phone with the potential buyer and trying to ask me what price the car was listed at. I got frustrated at him for a) not knowing, and b) not understanding how much I was telling him). I think that didn't add to anything for our conversation later on (because he assumed I was in a bad mood). He also said he wanted to see me later on and we are going to try to meet up after my plans this evening. But, things definitely are on the up and up.
Thanks to everyone for your opinions and advice. I really needed a strong dose of understanding and the bee's certainly came through. I think it was very important that I didn't force the talk and waited for him to figure it out and step up. I'm SOOO thankful that it only took til now (and not days on end!!)
Glad everything seems to be on the right path everafter! Best of luck hun.
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Sorry for the fake login - couldn't bear to post under my real account.
FI and I got into the biggest fight last night.
The short version? He slept on the sofa and left for work this morning without saying a word. All the other times we've fought, we've resolved it by morning and he's left with our traditional goodbye kiss. This time, as he left silently, it killed me.
The long version:
Some background: FI has been going through some financial issues. He is not the financial wizard, to say the least. I know this, I've accepted this, but it still frustrates me from time to time. Yesterday, he did his taxes and got a 4K tax bill (a total relief to both of us, as I was expecting 10K (he had to short sell his house). He's also trying to get out of a ridiculous car lease (7 years, $500 a month!!) by selling it to a private party. To get out of the least, he's going to have to front at least $3-4K (since the selling price is less than what it's worth). Last week, we agreed to have him take $2K out of the wedding fund to purchase a car to use when his other car sold.
Fast forward to last night: he thinks he might have a buyer for the leased car - which is a huge relief and I'm excited to get rid of it. I made the comment: well, there goes the wedding fund (because now it will pretty much depleat it) and he flipped out on me - and I flipped right back. While we are both contributing to the fund, I've done about 75% and I'm floating household payments while he gets on his feet from credit card debt he incurred while trying to keep his house. Getting rid of the car lease and figuring out taxes was the last huge hurdle we had to cross.
I told him that I knew it was the right decision (to take the money out of the wedding fund to get rid of the car lease) but I told him that he'd need to understand that from time to time, I'm going to get frustrated at our financial situation.
From that point, it was a downhill spiral. He said he felt like it was all his fault, and I didn't do anything to change his mind (I actually said: yes, it is all your fault!). I didn't bitch at him more than that, we just huffed around all night in silence. At some point, he started getting all snappy with me, and I asked him why he was snappy at me and he said he didn't know. He pulled the "Are you PMS'ing" card which infuriates me to no end.
When it was time for bed, he beat me to bed and I was so frustrated that he wouldn't talk to me, I told him that I didn't want to sleep in the same bed with him, if he wouldn't talk to me. So, after some more angry words, he slept on the sofa (another first for us).
I realize I hit his manhood button, but I'm always the one who reconciles fights - not just in our relationship but in all relationships. Quite frankly, I'm sick of it and think that sometimes the other person needs to step up to the plate.
I usually have no problem extending the olive branch, but for whatever reason, wanted him to be a man and accept the fact that he's bringing serious money issues into our lives and not be a jerk about it. I don't think what I said to him is unreasonable - and I KNOW I didn't get all that frustrated (other than showing disappointed that the wedding fund would be poof). I reiterated that it was the best long-term financial decision, but at that point, it was too late.
I feel like this fight is setting some sort of standard for us. While I fumed and didn't sleep last night, I couldn't help but start to wonder if we should even get married. I know my frustration and anger fueled my feelings, but I kept saying to myself - if he doesn't come in here and resolve this, it's over. It didn't even dawn on me that he wouldn't say goodbye in the morning. When he didn't.. it felt like a nail in the coffin.
I don't even want to wear my e-ring today. :(
I guess I'm trying to figure out if I'm being unreasonable or if I should have said something to him last night to make the peace.
At this point, I think it's best to wait for him to extend some sort of communication with me. What sucks even more is I have plans tonight and tomorrow night and he works during the day on Saturday. Who knows if he'll even be here when I get home tonight....
this sucks.