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The results.
52.5% of Californians voted to eliminate right of same-sex couples. I'm not in CA, but does anyone else feel sad?
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i live in california and voted no to prop 8 so i'm extremely disappointed. even though i'm not gay, i still strongly believe in separation of church and state. i am shocked it passed given the liberal population.
I was thrilled to be getting married in California where the same right that I had was extended to all people. I hope that right is restored before my planned wedding.
Those of us who opposed Prop 8 are not giving up. Suits are being filed and this will be reviewed. I truly don't understand how we could write discrimination into the state constitution...
Like Amy, I am concerned that religious interest could influence the constitution of a state.
I'm so dissapointed by this! A sour note on an otherwise happy election. When we picked up our marriage license in San Francisco it was so awesome to see so many same-sex couples.
Bittersweet doesn't even begin to describe my feelings about the passage of Prop 8 in comparison to the general election.
Discrimination is discrimination. Denying same-sex couples the right to marry based on their sexual orientation is DISCRIMINATION!
I don’t get it either!
I, too, am shocked at the election results. There seemed to be some much support on the No side, I just don't understand how this happened. And I agree with misscookie. Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of how it is shrouded. Sad. Just sad.
I live in California and voted no, so I'm truly and shocked and so sad that somehow the Yes' still won.
I am very saddened by this. On the same day that we have a major milestone in electing the first african-american president, the rights of others to marry is being denied. Another major one some may not have heard about is in Arkansas which passed a ban on adoptions and fostering of children to those who are unmarried. This also seems to be a block of same-sex couples to adopt in my opinion. Here's a story on it:
http://www.al.com/election/index.ssf?/base/politics-1/1225970653132110.xml&storylist=politics
What happened to moving forward?
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I live in the OC and voted no. I was so upset about this Prop even being on the ballot, let alone passing. California is now the first state to overturn same sex marriage. I am really sad as well. Although I must say that the Prop was written with extremely confusing narrative so if you were unsure of the Prop you could have actually cast a Yes vote when you mean No.
I cried for two reasons after election day. One was for Barack Obama and how far we've come as a nation. The other was because some people still do not understand that equality is a RIGHT. I hope one day we will look back on this the same way we look at laws preventing interracial marriage. Writing discrimination into California's constitution is a shameful thing.
Also, bans were passed in Florida and Arizona. A ban on unwed couples living together who wish to adopt or foster children was passed in another state (I want to say Arkansas. Please correct me if I am wrong.) It was meant to stop gay couples from adopting. Shocked and saddened are two adjectives to describe my feelings, but I am not willing to accept defeat.
It saddened me, but, unfortunately, did not completely surprise me. I had hope that it would not pass but realistically I did not truly believe that it would be a landslide.
What I can say, though, is that the percentage by which it passed is quite small. Perhaps there is a glimmer of hope that in due time, opinions will change and the outcome will be reversed. I can only hope.
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I think the worst part is there was no grandfather clause (as far as I've read), so all the couples that did get married now have a usless piece of paper or as I see it, a slap in the face.
A wedding should be a joyful union of two people in love.
I'm not getting married in a church and I suppose there's no technical reason we have to actually sign a wedding licence to please the state, but it does (and I can't explain why) make a difference that we are "legally" getting hitched
The "getting married" part is the most important thing, that symbolism just means so much - we've been together 10 years already and getting married will make a difference to us.
To be told that you're not allowed to do that, to have that joyful celebration - oh I can't imagine how all those same sex couples, who want that, now feel, I know it would crush me. My heart goes out to those affected.
Interestingly, it seems like the same voters that made the difference for Obama also helped Prop 8 pass:
http://www.dailynews.com/ci_10910908
Sad.
I'm in Florida, and although I voted "No," it also passed here. I was very upset, although I am not at all surprised. I know although I told as many people as I could about how it was hurting both gay and heterosexual people, I could only do so much. I never once saw a sign to say "No" to prop 2. There were "Say Yes" signs on every corner, though, and lots of people had stickers on their vehicles. I know if I had not taken the time to really look at the Amendements before I voted (as many people don't!), I could have possibly voted "Yes" just becuase I kept seeing it everywhere. If the only campaigning you see is one-sided, it is very possible you may just check that box without thinking. I kept trying to figure out where all of the "No" people were. The "Yes" people even had a logo and everything.
In live in the OC and there were sooo many Yes supporters around and Im am just shocked that there are so many that want to discriminate peoples' lives.. I voted No and will continue to. ONe day we will all look back and think 'wow I cant believe we banned gay/lesbian/people to get married!'
I honestly believe it was the red herring advertising they did. For those of you who didn't have the 'privledge' of being in CA and watching it, the "Yes" people were essentially scaring people by telling them if they didn't vote yes, thier childern have gay marriage shoved down thier throats and, obviously, that would make them gay. (hopefully you all get my extreme sarcasm and disdain here). This actually had absolutely nothing to do with the Prop, and it is just scared, sad people who are terribly afraid that once gay pople are allowed to get married the world will end as we know it.
52% is sooo close though, especially compared to how poorly Prop 22 fared several years ago. Hopefully we, as a state and country, will realize how awful this is and rectify it soon.
see the movie "Jesus Camp". it's a documentary which talks about how religion is seeping into Politics. Very scary
I thought it would be close... but I was genuinely surprised that it passed! I wouldn't have been surprised that a proposition legalizing gay marriage would have failed, because I would expect many people to be unwilling or disinterested in actually standing up for gay rights. But I'm surprised that so many people *actively* voted to ban gay marriage. I'm shocked that so many people were willing to declare that they absolutely do not want gays to be able to legally marry. Bulldoggrl gave a good explain how the proponents succeeding in creating fear, but I am still surprised that so many people fear it.
obama winning the presidential election was great (:D)
but the passage of prop 8 in california is quite sad...surely it was a miscount?...we might like to think...it is a sad day when two people who want to get married can't...
I am so incredibly bummed about Prop 8. What happened to 'equality for all'? What happened to the separation of church and state?
I have said it before- and I will say it again- the government has NO BUSINESS making ANY decisions regarding my uterus OR my marriage. They are sacred to me- and me alone. And I would be glad to allow that same thought be shared and granted to everyone else.
I am so tired of the government using marriage (and abortion rights) as a politcial tool.
While I am not a member of the LGBT community- I am so saddened by the perpetuation of discrimination.
Not only did the opposition distribute lies- they went to the extent of taking funds donated by CHURCHES to have planes flying overhead during SCHOOL HOURS (elementary, junior high and high schools specifically). The banners read "Protect Marriage".
Many of my neighbors in a predominantly republican community verbalized they were incredibly confused by the way the proposition was written. Many said they didn't realize if they were voting for or against it.
I hope those in opposition of Prop 8 will ban together to be allies to the LGBTQ community, to eradicate ALL discrimination of every form. Marriage isn't just about the body. It is a bond between the mind and soul.
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After hearing what the Mormon Church did, pouring large amounts of monetary support into Prop 8, I want to start a referendum rescinding the LDS church's status as a religion in California. Let's see how they like government discrimination thrown their way.
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There is already a petition underway. Please contact me privately if you are interested in getting the information or signing it. I don't feel that it is appropriate to post political petitions in a Weddingbee thread... and I have many, many good Mormon friends who I love and respect, so this brings me into tricky territory.
I wasn't going to comment on this thread because I don't believe in being a sore winner, and honestly, I didn't feel like being called a bigot, narrow minded, or a homophobe.
But I seriously want to know what is going on with this petition -- what EXACTLY did the LDS church do? Was it illegal? If it wasn't, then I'm sorry, but there is NOTHING WRONG with what they did. They fought for what they believe in, just like those who wanted to see Prop 8 struck down. And if it did go against their tax exempt status, I would be proud to see them and any other churches give up that status in order to continue their efforts. I believe in separating church and state, but I don't believe in separating religion and politics. My beliefs are my beliefs and I (and I bet this holds true for the LDS members as well) refuse to compartmentalize them; to hold something in my religious beliefs that I won't allow to inform my public life.
I find this petition to be frightening to say the least. Those who support it are the ones who are infringing on church/state separation. Look it up -- that phrase came about for the protection of THE CHURCH, not the state.
I appreciate your point of view December, and understand that we all hold different views-- some even within our own families.
I'll just quote the IRS tax law to show where things went wrong and hope that clears things up.
Section 501(c)(3) describes corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literacy, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in section (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.
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"I believe in separating church and state, but I don't believe in separating religion and politics."
See, these are actually the same thing, so sorry I don't see your arguement here. Voting Yes on Proposition yes isn't about your public life, it's about putting legislation into effect in the STATE that specificly discriminates against a specific set of people. You are absolutely right that people, including the LDS are entitled to their opinion, but Prop 8 simply discriminatory in every sense and they are deriving their discrimination from their RELIGION.
This is why I left Weddingbee...too bad the morbid curiosity got the better of me when I came over to see the response, or allowed response from the election and Prop 8.
I'm a conservative and I'm for love and marriage..for everybody!
Hopefully the grandfather clause will stick.
We are who we are. Enough said. Wishing love and hope to those impacted by this.
I'm with you, December.
I voted Yes on Proposition 8 and would do it again if I had the chance.
For the record, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not donate any funds to the Yes on 8 campaign. Members of the church voluntarily donated of their own money and time, as did many other individuals across the country from all different faiths (or no particular faith at all) and demographics.
If I were American I would vote Yes on proposition 8 a thousand times over, if possible. My personal opinion is that its sad to see the world reverting to leviticus-style immorality. Also, a hundred years ago homosexuals went to jail... today paedophiles go to jail... so whats going to happen in a hundred years? scary.
If you open a dictionary, you will see that there is indeed a vast difference between religion and church, and the state and politics. The church and state are entities, each with their own by laws and spheres of influence. Neither of these are allowed to control the other.
Religion and politics, however, are two different facets of my personal code of ethics. My ethics on religion, politics, justice, compassion, etc, all inform each other and cannot be cleanly separated. And yes, I derive my ethics from the source of a (I hesitate to use the word because of its implications, but it's still true) literal interpretation of the Bible. NO, that does not mean that I think the government's laws should follow that of the Old Testament. However, I simply cannot stand by when my government asks me to either agree or disagree with something that is very clearly spelled out in my beliefs, be they of a religious or a political nature.
And yes, this is a part of my public life. If a man and a man or a woman and a woman want to have a legally binding marriage, they are asking for public recognition of the nation as a whole. Don't try to tell me that if gay marriage eventually does become legalized, that all those of religious beliefs that state that there is no such thing as marriage between these two parties will be allowed to simply ignore the status that the government has bestowed on homosexual couples. I believe that I have the right to not be legally forced to acknowledge something with which I fundamentally disagree.
Doctorgirl: Thanks for the info. Does a referendum such as Prop 8 fall under either the category of legislation or a candidate? I also find it interesting to note that these laws mention it must be a "substantial part" of the organization's activities. Seems rather vaguely defined to me, and I would posit that the church might have a good case for this not being a "substantial part," especially if, as elizzard87 said, the organization itself donated no funds. If we are living in a world in which a simple combination of exercising our political rights to hold politically incorrect views while having a church membership is cause for petitions against us, then I truly fear for America's legacy as a free nation.
December - Your religion can continue to do whatever it wants, regardless of the legalilty of homosexual marriages. People are legally allowed to marry across religions, and have been for a long time - yet my religion will not officially recognize my marriage, and the fact that it is legal has had NO impact.
That is what I find so disturbing about people who agree with this ban - your religion can continue to hold on to your beliefs so I just don't get how it impacts you at all to allow people who love each other to have the same rights as you have, legally. No one needs YOU to recognize a thing - these couples sure don't need your recognition, they want the legal rights you have.
My point is that legislation rescinding LDS church recognition WOULD be discriminatory and wrong. I know people in the Mormon church. Good and kind people, every one of them. The GLBA community hates to see their rights taken away and discrimination against them written into the California constitution. But they are good people as well just trying to live their lives. Remember the words of Martin Niemoeller:
"In Germany, They came first for the communists and I didn't speak up, for I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up for I wasn't a Jew.
They came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up, for I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholic, and I didn't speak up for I was a protestant.
And then they came for me, and by that time, no one was left to speak up."
If you have to feel the discrimination yourself before you understand it is wrong then that maybe this is the course of action it takes to keep the rights of people safe. Your beliefs and opinions are all wonderful things, but they should govern your life and not mine or anyone elses.
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This is how it impacts me.
All of the following assumes a world in which gay marriage is legalized, and discrimination against it in all sectors prohibited.
If I am a financial advisor who is morally opposed to gay marriage, I will be forced to recognize it when I cannot turn away a gay couple who wants me to manage their retirement funds.
If I am a photographer who is morally opposed to gay marriage, I will be forced to recognize it when I cannot say no to a gay couple who wants me to photograph their wedding.
If I am an adoption counselor, I cannot refuse to work with a gay couple to find them a child.
If I am a lawyer, I cannot refuse requests to set up wills with gay couples, draw up prenuptial agreements between gay couples, etc.
If I am a teacher, I will have to interact with a parental structure over some of my students which I believe to be invalid.
If I own a business, I will be forced to assure that any homosexuals working for me have health insurance that covers their spouse.
There are so many more ways that I can't put up right now, but believe me, it is there. In every way that we interact with heterosexual marriage in the public sphere today, we will also have to interact with homosexual marriage. It will have a PROFOUND impact on my life.
I'm sorry December but I think we will have to agree to disagree.
Anti-miscegenation laws were on the books not too long ago and ALL of what you said would apply to my Filipino self and my marriage to a German/Irish girl if you simply changed "same-sex" to "inter-racial." So no, I do not see how anyone has the right to impose their morality on the homosexual community. Fifty years ago I could be lynched for even daring to come near a white woman, much less marry her. Prop 8 is no different. Churches are about love and acceptance, stop worrying about your rights to deny other people the things they want to pay you for.
December, good question. I believe it falls under legislation, but I agree the statute is vaguely worded.
Elizzard- I actually have 2 memos issued by the Mormon Church that would disagree with your assertion that they did not contribute money and provide evidence of church issued doctrinal statements regarding prop 8. I'm happy to share them, but my point is not to be anti-Mormon church... Rather, I would just want the church to truly stay out of the affairs of state, and I think this is a case where at the very least the waters are getting muddied.
I'll just close with a question for you December... substitute "black" for "gay" in your hypothetical situations above. I wonder how acceptable that seems? See, not that long ago, there were laws that said blacks could not marry whites. I'm sure some people wouldn't have been willing to be the lawyer for, financially advise or allow adoption for inter-racial couples... But 40 years later, we see that stance as completely bigoted. My fiance's family wouldn't even exist if there were still anti-miscegenation laws, and I don't think that's right.
I hope that it doesn't take 40 more years for people to realize the same with gay couples!
Anyway, I had no intention of getting overly political in this thread, and I really hope I haven't offended anyone. I understand that we're each on our own journey. I love and respect my religious friends and family as much as my gay friends and family and I long for the day that both are equal in the eyes of the law.
December- Do you mind if I ask about the viewpoint of LDS churches on inter-racial or inter-faith marriages?
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honestly December, I think this is the whole point. The discrimination you want to practice (the ability to turn away gay couples from being given the same rights to education, the legal system, etc. etc. ) is pure and simple discrimination and we need laws to protect these people from people like you who think it is ok to treat them differently.
You should not be allowed to discriminate against people the way you describe because you don't agree with their lifestyle. I am actually really sad to realize that people still think that they should have the right to discriminate the way you want to. I agree with doctorgirl - should we think teachers should be allowed to not meet with parents whose lifestyles they disagree with? What is there is a teacher who thinks inter-racial or inter-faith marriages are wrong. Should they be allowed to not interact with these parents? If you don't like black people, do you think you should have the right to turn them away?
It is plain discrimination and I hate the fact that we live in a place where people think it is ok to place judgement upon others the way you do.
@emilygrace: Be careful comparing homosexuals to pedophiles, that's really a line you shouldn't be crossing. It's a very brutal statement and you're really comparing apples to oranges.
@Lillindy I think it is more akin to comparing apples to flaming bags of excrement. One is consentual and the other is victimizing.
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