Weddingbee boards

I've been struggling with this lately and not really sure where to ask, so I thought I'd throw it out here....

To give some background, for the past year, I have worked full-time as part of a neighborhood ministry. My fiance has been with that same ministry part-time (since he still has a full-time job, too). We are also part of a house church connected with the ministry. The church is fairly young (about a year and a half old) and has gone through a lot of changes as we figure out what it looks like to be a church.

My fiance and I have been talking about the church a lot over the past couple weeks and we almost always end up arguing. It always starts when my fiance says something and I bring up an alternate point of view, just as something else to think about (in the most recent incident, we were talking about church leadership and my fiance suggested three couples that he thought should be in leadership; I suggested that it might be good to also ask for input from the congregation so that they were part of the process since we try help every person in the congregation function as part of the church). My fiance then gets really offended and claims that I'm not supporting him and that I don't think any of his ideas are good. By this point, I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do. I'm really trying to be supportive and I do see so much wisdom coming from him and try to tell him so, but whenever I suggest something besides what he's said, it's like it cancels out in his mind everything else positive I said. We always end up working it out and I really do want to find ways to make him feel more supported. But I just don't know how to be more supportive without just going silent and not sharing the things on my heart. I have been working in ministry for about three years and feel like God has called me to lead and minister among His people. This church is something I've thought and prayed about for a lot of years.

So I was wondering how you support your fiance/husband? Is it possible to be supportive and submissive while still functioning in the gifts and passions that God's give you? As a wife, am I really called to hold back from saying what I think and believe about things if they differ from what my husband thinks?

You can still believe in God and be a Christian and still be a strong and independent woman, wife and leader... this is the 21st century and there is no reason you should feel like you need to hold your tongue because you don't want to offend your husband. That's just insane. I'm so sorry if this comes across as harsh, but no adult woman should ever have to "submit" to any man.

To your last question, "Am I really called to hold back from saying what I think and believe about things if they differ from what my husband thinks?"

The answer is NO. "Submit unto your husband" does not mean "submissive" (mousy, quiet, passive, etc.). It means consider his opinions & ideas carefully & with respect. That verse also says that the husband is supposed to submit to the wife in the same way! Your fiancé is not holding up his end of the bargain. With the specific example you gave, your FH should have listened to you, considered your ideas, and made a decision.

My FH and I are both strong willed and we have opinions. I never refrain from speaking up, but I've learned that sometimes, I need to state my opinions & then back off. Usually, FH will consider what I've said and later come to me and say, "That was a pretty good idea" or whatever. Sometimes he does the same with me.

I'm someone who grew up in the Christian tradition and I have seen this edict ("obey" your spouse) abused more often than not. When I was in college, I had a fellow student with a beautiful voice (it was a music school). Her husband forbade her from studying anymore because he didn't want her to go to college, and he didn't have a degree, and so he used the Christian Husband Argument to get her to drop out. I still remember the last time I saw her.

How is your FH reacting when you state your opinions? Is he just strong-willed and unwilling to listen at first, or is he using the Christian Husband Argument to encourage you to stay quiet? Some pre-marital counseling would help clear that up.

My fiance has never used the "wives should be submissive" argument. He does have a lot of insecurities from past hurts with his family, so I know a lot of his sensitivity stems out of that. It's more that he feels like he's been passive for a long time and really, really wants to step up, being the man of the house, a leader, and he's trying to learn how to do that. But it's a really sensitive place in him right now, so he sometimes overreacts if he feels like that's threatened (like with the example I gave). He never felt supported by his parents in anything he did (his mom left him when he was a baby and his step mom never really accepted him; both his parents ridiculed him when he chose to leave school, etc.) so there's this huge need in him for support. I want to help him in working through that and I really do want to support him, but it's sometimes hard because he's so sensitive in all this. I guess I'm wondering if I should be less outspoken about some things just for a time to build up his security in my support of him, then gently bring some of this up?

I guess I just struggle with this, too, because it makes me feel insecure in who I am all of a sudden, like maybe he doesn't really love me for who I am. I know he does, but it doesn't feel that way sometimes. You're prayers as we work through this would be appreciated :-)

I think a lot of him accepting your point of view is how you approach him - tell him the truth in love.  Engaging in iscussions and offering different points of view, I think are great approaches to handling disagreements.  Say, "I see your point, but have you considered x, y, z?"  There should be mutual respect there to listen to one another.  If it's a larger issue than just recently, or you're unsure of how these relational roles will work out in the long run, you can always talk to a spiritual advisor you trust.  I also recommend the book "Captivating," by Staci Eldridge, if you'd like to explore the different views on women's roles and christianity.

I read your post and immediately knew I should ask my husband to write a response from the male perspective.  I promise I haven't edited his thoughts (grammar included) so I hope his perspective helps you.

As my wife will tell anybody I am a random thinker so let’s start with the last and maybe most important question you ask and then I will ramble on from there….

So I was wondering how you support your fiancé/husband? Is it possible to be supportive and submissive while still functioning in the gifts and passions that God's give you? As a wife, am I really called to hold back from saying what I think and believe about things if they differ from what my husband thinks?"
I though about quoting all kinds of scripture, maybe a discussion of the complimentary vs. egalitarian views, but instead I though I would just share what I believe as a Christian male.  
I actually really do believe that Christian wives are to submit to their husbands.  
So what does that mean?  
I think that in God’s eyes as individuals we are all equal.  Galatians 3 talks about our equality as humans when it comes to Christian privileges.   I think that as a Christian, every thought, prayer, desires, opinion you have is important to God and holds no more weight in God’s eyes than does your husband.  
Therefore, I think you have every right to share your opinions, thoughts, desires, etc with your husband and he should respect what you say and what you think.  This is hard for men…
So if you can share your ideas and tell him what you think how does that fit into submission?
Let’s start with the guy’s role in this.   He is called to be your spiritual leader; he is called to love you just as Christ loved the church, and just as he loves himself.   You are to be cherished and nourished.   Now here is the kicker most men miss in the whole wives submit thing…  “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her.”  
That’s a tall order to fill.  
So what is the female role in this? “Wives submit to your husband, as to the Lord.”  
Do you tell God what you think?  Do you tell him when you are angry at him?   Do you tell him what you want in life?   Do you tell him when you are uncomfortable in a situation?  
I would wager that the answers to these are yes.  I would also bet that you try your hardest to defer to God to make the decision and do what is best for you.   This is not unlike the submission that Christ wants a wife to have for her husband.  
My view ends up looking like this:   In a marriage all things should be open and relatively equal.   You should talk through all your decisions and try to make those decisions together through compromise.  When a compromise cannot be reached, you should defer to your husband.  He then has a large responsibility to do the best he can to be humble (which includes knowing that you may know more about some things), keep your best interest (and dare I say desires), in mind, and be willing to sacrifice for you if need be.   He should make his decisions with love and compassion just as Christ would. 
Once a decision is made it is important to stick together on it…( I am still learning this part)  
I think decisions made this way tend to be Godly and good.  They tend to hold a peace about them that makes them easy to support.  
Now for the church stuff…
I think being in a ministry is one of the most intimate things a married couple can do together.  I would rank the spiritual connection achieved during true worship of God , which ministering to others  is a part, right up there with sex.   Having said I think it can also be one of the hardest things to do together without causing conflict because it is something God gives us such a passion about.  
It is obvious you feel called to this ministry.  My first suggestion is to sit down and discuss what is going on as a whole in the church with your fiancé.  It might be he is no longer comfortable with where the church is going.  Make sure you both still feel called to this ministry and keep in mind callings change according to where God needs you.   You first priority needs to be that you find a place you can really WORSHIP together.   I think this a hard and long process.  I know it has been and still is for my wife and me because we are now trying to find something that fits us both as a couple and as individuals.  It needs to be a place where you can grow and learn.  If this is the church you are in then that is great!  It might be worth both of you considering taking a small sabbatical from ministry in the final weeks of your engagement and the first few months of your marriage.  Don’t be afraid to take time away from the ministry and let God grow this new and wonderful area of your life. It may be that some of discomfort you feel is God letting you both know that it is a time to need to be ministered to and not the one necessarily doing the ministering. 
Sit down talk it all out.  Take time to ask him what “supporting him” means to him.  My wife and I are always figuring out that what things mean to one, means a totally different thing to the other.

I have not read all the posts but here is my 2 cents :)

My FI and I have had simalar moments.. and it usually involves dumb things..lol. Here is an example.

We went to pick up a bed set for my mom and my FI tied it down in the back of the pick up with blankets over it. While we were driving we kept having to pull over cause the blankets were flying off .. . he would start re-tying the rope and I started telling him what I thought would work. (my idea did end up working :) ) But once we were back in the truck he was all frustrated and he told me that all he was hearing when I voiced my ideas was .. "you can't do this" "my ideas are better" he told me that it was really hurting him. (even though I never said those things). Sometimes it is better to let him figure things out on his own.. I catch myself now when I start doing this and try to refrane from even suggesting things. I think it is almost a mothering thing that comes naturally to us :)    - I recommend the book "For Women Only" This brought up a lot of discussion between my FI and I

Your situation is much different and involves running a church. This is tricky.. I do agree with you in having people in the congregation involved (its an accountability thing) I come from a Presby church and every thing invovles committiees and congregational meetings - the reasoning behind this is that if God wants it to happen then God has to convince x # of people on the committee for the vote.

I just noticed that this post is 4 months old... 

Let us know how everything is working out -@ MayBeeBecca

You've already gotten a lot of great input! The only thing I'd add is that "supportive" doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with your partner about everything. To me, supportive means that you are working for your partner's good, that offering an alternate solution is just that, working towards a solution for your partner's problem. My friends disagree with me all the time, but I still see it as totally supportive because they want me to succeed. Does that make sense?

I'd forgotten that I posted this until I saw it on the list again, so thank you all for your responses!

This is actually an issue that we struggled with a lot in the first six months or so of our marriage, moreso than I would have ever imagined when I wrote this post. A lot of the issues came from the house church my husband was part of before we started dating, which we got involved in again for those six months after we got married. They have a very traditional view of submission and authority, both with church authority (members are expected to be "in complete unity with and submission to [church name's] beliefs, values, practices, and leadership") and definitely in marriage as well. Wives are allowed to give gentle "suggestions" but if their husband decides to do something else they're supposed to submit and drop the issue (and husbands are encouraged to "rebuke" their wives if they aren't being submissive enough). The wives there seem happy enough with this (I think because they're taught that they're being good, godly wives). Because my husband was immersed in that for a while and they were a big influence in his life, it made him feel like if he wasn't making big decisions for us and leading the way in a visible way, that maybe he wasn't a good husband.

Needless to say, we are no longer members of that church :-P. But it was a rough road getting where we are now. Thankfully, after a lot of tension, prayers, conversations (with each other and with other christian couples), my husband realized some things about the church and about his own heart and decided we should leave. The longer we're away, the clearer he sees the issues.We're much happier, much closer as a couple, and much more alive spiritually than ever before.

But all that said, I think for me the issue comes down to how you define "submission" and "headship." And in those definitions, I think it's important to look at the bible as a whole to get a beter picture of the heart and intention behind those commands.

I believe that, as a wife, I am called to submit to my husband. However, we are BOTH called to submit to one another in love. I don't believe that submission was ever about obedience (particularly not unconditional obedience). God was not sanctioning a dictatorship (I believe the same of church leaders as well). I see it more as an issue of prefering the other, of giving up my peferences out of love for my husband. I also see it as an issue of being accountable to him, of sharing my heart, my fears and dream, etc., and being open about my struggles, and then paying attention to what he says about those things (not necessarily accepting everything he says as law, but respecting it). I think it's important to remember that unity and intimacy are God's intentions in marriage, so the commands He gives us are meant to foster those things. I don't think that unity comes from silent, unquestioning obedience (bitterness or low self-esteem is more likely to come out of that :-P). But prefering one another in love and being vulnerable with one another? Just in my limited experience, that builds intimacy a lot (our past couple months are a testimony to that).

And I read an interesting book that addressed that term "head" used in Corinthians. Apparently it can be translated "source" instead of just "boss over" and in the context of the passage (which uses it in reference to the Trinity), "source" seems like a better translation. As the "source" of his household, the husband is responsible for blessing and releasing his wife (and kids) in the things God has called them to. For him to try to force his will on them actually goes against his position as the head/source. We actually just heard a message that touched on this last night. The speaker reminded us that a godly family has one "head"....and His name is Jesus, and if we aren't in submission to Him -- all of us -- then the biblical principle of headship is undermined.

My husband also pointed out that God himself doesn't force His will on us (He gave us free will), so how could he, as my husband, try to take up a position of authority that God Himself refuses to take?

So, we're learning (often by trial and error), but God is good and it gets better all the time :-)

Ranaki13 -- That's a great way of puting it. Thanks!

thefuturemrsgibbs -- we've gone to several churches. The one I mentioned in my first post was a young house church that met at the house where I was living at the time. The one I mentioned in my second post was a house church elsewhere in the city. Neither of them are affiliated with a particular denomination, but the second one (where we had so many problems) is part of a larger network of house churches.

I don't particularly like the word "submissive" either, but I used it because it is the words used in many bible translations. I think I prefer "honor" or "respect" though