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Hey there, Hive!
Today's post is a little rant-ish, but I'm wondering if anyone else is experiencing this.
I'm 22, and about a year and a half away from achieving my bachelor's of fine arts degree. My FI proposed in late March, but since then, nothing wedding-related has happened. AT ALL. It seems as though my parents are almost anti-wedding. One parent has the same degree as I am pursuing, and every time I bring up wanting to be finished with school, they cut in with "not yet", and when family members have asked about the wedding and when it is, and I say that I'd like it to be after my B.F.A., that parent interjects and makes sure it's known that I "have to get a master's first" because the art world is hard to get a job in without one. So then the family members hear that, the subject gets dropped and I don't really feel excited about getting married anymore, just anxious and a little sad. Yes, right now is a bad time to get married; we have no money set aside yet and other issues, but it's not like we're planning a huge blowout. We're a fairly low-key couple and want a small wedding. I just want to be able to start planning and not have people treating me like my wedding is nothing special. My FI's parents keep asking why we haven't started planning anything yet and urging us to get to the church to start the process.*sigh*
Has anyone else had something like this happen, and if so, how did you deal with it? I don't want to get married tomorrow or anything, but it'd just be nice to be able to look at wedding things without almost feeling guilty. I know my parents are just looking out for me, but still...
My dad made me promise that I wouldn't get married until after I graduated and his parents asked the same thing. I guess they think that it would be too hard to be married and be in college or maybe the planning in college. Maybe you could tell your parents that you are going to wait a little while but you wanted to look at things so that you will be more educated when you decide to start planning.
Hey sapphirelady15.
I'm sorry your parents are giving you such a hard time about not getting married now, and that your FI are pressuring you to get married!
You did't really mention it...when do YOU want to get married?
By the way, I graduated with a degree in fine arts too...and I agree, getting your masters is important in this field (at least what I hear). I only have a BA in fine arts, and since graduating have not gotten a job in the art field. The reason is probably that I don't know specifically what I want to do...if I would have specialized in something more specific, that probably would have happened. But I'm too indecisive for that. Right now, I would not be ready to get a Masters...so you have to do what's right for you.
But yes, let us know more about what exactly you want. What do you see as your wedding/school timeline?
For this reason, my bf wants to wait til after I graduate. I'm a year away from graduating and my bf and I know my parents would be upset if I didnt atleast finish my degree before getting engaged. I think it's a bit antiquated, but we're in no rush either so it all works out to our favor plus he just started his Masters.
Thanks :)
As far as his and my ideal timeline, we are going to wait awhile, at least until 2011, which is when I hope to graduate. By then, we'll have been together over 6 years. I feel like I'd be ready by then to really get everything going and have my BFA behind me (which is more classes than a BA, and it requires a concentration in a specific area). I know the art world can be tough, but there are so many options; I'm sure that I could find something while I go to grad school. I do want to go to grad school, but on my own terms and time.
I wonder if I'm just feeling a little jealous of the the girls whose families are excited for them instead of not really showing any "happy" emotion at all. Hmmm...
Are there two of these threads? I definitely feel like I replied, but it's not on here.
Oops, yeah, I think I may have done "beehive" instead of "emotional" at one point and changed my mind. Errlack.
lilyfaith, there are two, but I think this is the one with more posts.
sapphirelady15, I'm really sorry you are going through this. I know you must feel pulled in different directions, but in the end, marriage is an adult decision, and therefore your decision to make with your FI. I think 2011 is realistic -- waiting until after grad school seems like a really long time, and it sounds like you are ready! I would suggest gently talking with your parents about your plans in terms of what you WILL be doing, rather than asking what they think. Set a tentative date, like June 2011 or whenever you think would be the best time for you, and hopefully your parents will catch on -- a lot do. I think they probably are just having a hard time with the fact that you are growing up and making choices that they don't have a lot of say in.
Okay, well this was my post:
I'm in a similar situation to you - I'm in my second year of a B.A. in Psych, plan to get my master's after, we've been dating since we were 14, and have lived together for awhile now. We just got engaged, although I'm still waiting on the ring as he's making payments and he plans to do a "real" proposal. We've both agreed that we want to finish undergrad before getting married, so we set our date for the summer between undergrad and grad.
Our parents were a bit wary our senior year of high school when they caught us talking about marriage once. They were really afraid that we'd bury ourselves and end up giving up our careers because the other wasn't supportive enough.
We've showed them that we can succeed together, though, and let them know that our careers are very important to us. Other than sitting down and explaining to your parents that you know it will be tough, but you don't plan to sacrifice your education or future because of the wedding, I'd hope they'd come around. If not, I think you'll just have to show them with your actions and wait for them to realize that you have your head on straight. (For lack of a better term.)
I had that problem too-I'm 21 & got engaged in February (was 20 when we got engaged) & my parents kept saying...you'll wait to get married until after school right? & Iwould just say we'll see.
We eventually were talking about the date & we wanted February & his parents weren't crazy about it, and my parents really didn't want it. We ended up going to august 14th, 6 months after we wanted to. We're not the most happy, but honestly, as soon as I said we're getting married in August, things started to come together & work out more than it did when we were planning the feb wedding.
I definitely understand how you feel!
A couple of thoughts for you on this post:
It seems like the parents are not worried about the wedding so much as they are worried about marriage after. I know in my family that once we say I Do that all financial support will cease. Right now my parents are paying part of my living expenses (not tuition) while I am on my way to getting my doctorate and FI family is paying for his Masters program as well. FI and I got engaged when we were both 22. And we will not be getting married until we are both 24 and have completed all of our education. Your family is right - you need that further education.
I really disaggree with you calling finishing your education antiquated. It is hugely progressive and forward thinking to make sure that both you and your FI are well educated and have the possibility of great careers. Not so long ago the reason many women (not all!) went to college was to get a MRS. degree.
I don't know about a masters in fine arts but when I sat for my interview the lady openly asked me about an significant others in my life and I told her that yes I was in a long term relationship and looking towards marriage. She flat out told me that most relationships cannot endure the strain of school. I thought that she was crazy. I got here and in the first year there were about 12 of us who were engaged or in a long term relationship. There are only 4 of us left now. (However 2 of the original 12 left the program because of their relationship drama) And we had 6 married couples and only 2 of those are still intact. So while I am hugely thankful for my FI - I realize that we are the exception. There are soooooo many out there that don't make it.
Best of luck!
I just don't get it. Why would you marry someone who would cause you to drop out of school?
Laural, that is what is antiquated. Not finishing school but thinking marriage and school are mutually exclusive in some way. It used to be that men would not support a woman's school and career but I hope that is no longer true. I don't think it's easier to go to school single so I don't get this "finish school first" mentality.
I know my mom was also worried about something like this which blew me away when I found out. School and career was really important to me so I was going to finish no matter what. I still don't know what the hell she was thinking thinking I'd drop out for a guy.
It is not that these guys caused these very intelligent women to drop out. These women made that choice. For some it was a combination of our school schedule being so strenuous that there was little or no time for a relationship and things that were not a problem before became problems. It was also for some a money thing. In our program it is impossible to work even part time. So the strains of little money, no time and a rocky relationship all put inside of a high pressure academic schedule caused real problems.
I don't think anyone goes into marriage thinking things are not going to work out and that you won't finish school but the reality is that it happens to some people.
I can tell you that there is NO way that FI and I could get married right now without one of us having to drop out of school at least temporarily. Because of my program I cannot work (same as just about any other med program out there) and he cannot work either. Our parents believe that if I am old enough and mature enough to tie the knot that I am also old enough to support myself.
If you want some good statistics on what med/dental/vet/law/etc programs do to marriages and relationships go sit with their interviewing committee because those people are flat out rude and pretty much tell you that you it won't work out. I cannot really speak for careers outside of the medical world but I would like to think that getting a masters in any discipline would require a great deal time and money and hard work.
I don't believe that every relationship that has one or both parteners in school will fail. But I KNOW (i am living it) that it is hard. Harder than I ever imagined. In this case I just think that this girls parents want her not to have to go through that type of hardship. Maybe they want her to have an easier time than they did. Whatever their reasoning is - I agree with it. Finish school first because things don't go the way that they are planned most of the time but no one can ever take that education away from you.
Your parents are just encouraging you to finish school first, or just not to lose sight of your education. It's easy to let your studies/grades go to the wayside when you're planning a wedding. It can be overwhelming. I don't know how heavy your courseload is, but I know for me, it would not have been doable.
Just let your parents know that you plan on finishing school but you're going to plan a little, also.
It's such a parental thing to do--my parents didn't encourage my relationship until i was just a little bit away from graduating. That was the #1 thing at the time. It's not that I would have dropped out, but it would have been a LOT more stress that easily could've waited a little bit. I was an engineering student though, and your load may be more manageable.
I think the bottom line of your situation is when do you and your fiance want to get married? If you wanted to get married tomorrow, that's what you should do. If you both want to wait 2 years, then do that.
Being a people-pleaser myself, I know it's hard to ignore the opinions of your parents but that's what you need to do (within reason, of course). If they're not going to be supportive of you getting married whenever the two of you want to get married, then you should talk to them about that and explain your side of the situation.
Forget about the "statistics on what med/dental/vet/law/etc programs do to marriages and relationships" and what the pressures of school have done to other people. Only you and him know your relationship and worrying about the failed relationships of others won't help your situation. Yes, school is stressful and yes, in my experience, it has been really difficult to plan a wedding while I've been in school and my fiance has been supporting the two of us. But if you can make it work while you're in school then go for it.
Personally, I think putting off a marriage because of finance/school/work/parents etc. (whatever reason there is) is silly. I understand that there's a thousand considerations that go into making a wedding, but by the sounds of it, you don't want a $30,000 wedding so that alone makes it easier for you to do while you're in school if you wanted. And compromising on your date just to make your parents happy won't make you two happy in the long run. Yes, you're young, but you're still adults that are capable of making an informed decision based on the opinions of two people... you and him and no one else.
Well as someone who has been there, has had one of those "you need a msters" majors, and being a parent, I ahve to say I basically side with your parents. I think it would be really beneficial to wait until you have school completed to get married. And honestly, people in their early twenties are still growing and forming. I think I heard somewhere your brain doesn't actually complete it's maturing process until 25. (Something like that anyway.)
When I met my husband I was 23, just graduated. I wanted to take some time to work before getting my masters. We got engaged. I threw myself into planning a wedding, a mive, and starting my life. I never went back to school. He didn't say I shouldn't. Life just happens sometimes. Once you get married, your life is not just about you anymore. It is about the two of you, and your finances and jointly making decisions. I've even seen some bees on here, get married, and suddenly start feel baby fever. (Some of them have even admitted they really shouldn't be having kids right now.) What if your FI gets into grad school or gets a job in Texas, and you get into school in Mass.? Or will one of you end up saying, "Well he/she has the better job here, so I'll have to limit my search for a school and job to somewehre around here."? (I guess if you feel like you're willing to have an LDR after you're married.... But why not wait until everything is settled?)
I just think that your parents are concerned you'll lose some direction careerwise, if you get married first. It is definitely easier to get school done before getting married. And you're right, your parents are looking out for you. But good luck either way.
Just to provide some context to my comment above, I recently graduated law school. There are a lot of jokes about how during law school your SO never sees you... etc. I didn't find law school to be particularly stressful. It just wasn't that hard. I enjoyed the year of law school during which I had my FI a lot more then the previous years. It wasn't harder for me.
But I'm also someone who didn't find undergrad to be particularly difficult and all consuming. So it really depends on your personality and how you handle school.
And even programs that are absolutely consuming like medical school etc. can actually be a lot easier when you have something good outside school to focus on during hard times. My best friend is in medical school and living with her SO. Men have always had girlfriends and wives in medical school and found that support to be so helpful. Maybe the key is finding a guy that will make it easier instead of harder.
Things don't magically "happen", causesing women to drop out of school or not prioritize their careers. It is a decision. Only you know how likely you are to make that decision. I think if you give up your career for anything less than a true emergency in the family you were never truly dedicated to it. Which doesn't make you a bad person or anything! There's nothing particularly virtious about a career. However, if you know what you want and are going to do it getting married isn't going to change things. IMHO.
I just want to add something in response to what some people have been saying:
I think a few of you are making a huge assumption that overlooks people who are living like they are married already. For example, R and I live together, make decisions together, share finances (although we don't yet have a joint account, we do consider our money joint) etc. We have done this through really stressful times: starting college I had no idea how I was going to make ends meet, because two months out my parents decided not to help me out financially besides a portion of tuition. Which meant that in addition to adjusting to college and being a full-time student, I worked 40 hours or more most weeks at two different jobs. R had his part-time job and was getting used to the demands of being a pre-vet Biology major.
We've had to make adjustments and compromise. And we've had to sit through the scary vet school advisors. I have to admit I resent them telling me "oh, you'll have to be so supportive of him, you won't understand the demands" seeing as how I'll be getting my master's and working to support R at the same time but I understand that we will both have stressful and time-consuming career and school paths.
I just don't see how not getting married until after school would make this better or easier on us. To the contrary, since we have committed to each other and moved into each other our lives have become much more wonderful - I won't say easier - and our relationship has grown stronger. I think that to a point it's fruitless to say that my brain will change so I don't know if this is who I'll be soon - middle age is a major change for adults, and one that often causes people to re-evaluate their lives and change direction. Yet society doesn't suggest that we wait until after mid-life to commit, because then we'll finally be who we REALLY are. Who we really are is constantly in flux. R and I are making a commitment to each other and our relationship. We know that we will grow and change. I would be disappointed if we were the exact same people in 10 years.
I'm sorry if this was long-winded, but this is a subject that is so important to me. I think people look back on their own experiences and know that a situation wouldn't have been right for them, and they assume that for those same reasons the situation won't work for another person. But we are all such different people, and every relationship is different. The bottom line here is that every relationship requires work and understanding. Some survive high stress lifestyles, and some don't.
I think your parents are concerned that you will not finish college on time or become pre-occupied with the wedding planning and let your grades slip. I think if you are really in love and meant to be together waiting until after graduation would not matter.
My FI and are both in our early 30's and have established careers and homes. We met in grad school, and got engaged a year before finishing our degrees. I set our wedding for after graduation, yes we will have a 16 month engagement- but your first commitment has to be school. There will be plenty of time for marriage and planning a wedding later. There shouldn't be a rush. Your education should be your priority and if it's not I dare say you may not be mature enough to be getting married. I know this may not be what you want to hear, but please consider that I am in a similar situation as you but probably 10 years older. I can wait at my "old age", because I am wise enough to know that we will still be together whether or not we are married, and that right now school has to be what we focus on.
I agree with not having to rush. It isn't a race and it depends on the person that you are. We can give all the advice you want, but only you know what is right for you. We all have lived different lives and have experienced dfferent things. What works for me might not work for you. You are old enough to make your own decisions and if your parents don't agree then that's their opinion. Make yourself happy, but always try to weigh the pros and cons. Goodluck!
@MsMarch - you say "there shouldn't be a rush" but what about those of us who have been with our SOs for years already? I think I mentioned this, but in my case I will have been dating R for about 7 1/2 years by the time we get married, and we will have been engaged for a little over 2 1/2 years. I don't see how that's rushing!
And most people juggle wedding planning with careers and/or school. Life doesn't slow down for it!
I agree there's never not a busy time. I think a lot of parents are against it if their kid isn't financially independent from them yet, which I can understand. My parents told me flat out they wouldn't support a marriage until I'd been completely independent for a bit - you want to have the confidance you can stand on your own two feet and college doesn't count, that's how it went in my family. Another thing is that there's big upheavals in life around that age with graduating, finding new jobs, people going every which way. 22 was an age where a lot of my friends broke up, even if they'd been together forever. Or...... they settled that it was really a forever relationship and got married. So I can see why parents would be a little hesitant, it's just a time of a lot of big changes in life. They just need to be convinced this is serious and you've thought about how you can support each other.
I will say planning a wedding while working full time and going to school at night is very tough. There is no way I could have done it all and maintained good grades without a 16 month engagement. I am not saying ignore the wedding or getting married, but space out your time so you can manage everything. If you set a later date, it will be easier to have enough energy to give everything your best effort.
I thought the OP was just expressing that she wanted to begin planning, how does that mean she won't have a moderate or long engagement? I think it's often assumed that because someone is getting married at 21 or 22 they haven't had a long engagement, but often that's not the case. I think most of the people who have responded to this have actually said their engagement will be or was over a year.
The way I see it, there are two things going one. One is that she admits she should be getting a masters and that they have no money now. If they plan for a wedding without currently having the means to support themselves, maybe it's too soon. You should probably be on your feet first. (Yes, people can be married and lose their jobs. But while you can't gaze into the crystal ball for everything, the OP can stand back and say at this point, they really don't have themselves established. And with regards to the masters, it does make it more difficult to want to go back to school when you have other things in life going on. And it sounded like the OP might not be looking to go back right away. (Just the way she worded something.) And when you take time off after school before getting your masters, it's harder to go back, and adding getting married on top of that....)
@ lilyfaith, I think you are right about the age thing. I just turned 21 and am getting married in April. I will have been engaged for just under two years when that day comes.
When I got engaged, I moved across the country a couple weeks later with my fiance. Before we left my parents had me promise that I would not drop out of school once I got here. (My fiance has already graduated) Maybe you could reassure them that your education is still one of your priorities (Im assuming it is), and then slowly start bringing wedding planning information up to them until they are comfortable with the idea.
Another way of looking at it that is different from 'why rush?' is why artificially delay the development of the relationship?
I think each relationship has its own natural progression and insisting on holding off because you want to focus on school can mean you sacrifice the relationship.
I think school is incredibly important and a career is one of my very top priorities in life but I would still say that finding the right person to share your life with is more important. So, imo, if it's the right timing for your relationship to get married don't force yourself not to marry, let it go in a natural way. Don't lose the right guy because other people think you're too young. The same way that I'd advice women pushing marriage not to push.
Money is an important issue. I don't really understand parents that will support you single but won't suppport you married but I know that happens and if you happen to have parents like that this might be an issue. However it doesn't sound from the OP that she's going to starve if she decides to get married. Geez, you do not need money to get married.
Oh and sapphirelady15, I'd advice you that the way to convince your parents thata this is really going to happen is to start planning. It will probably also convince you and make you feel better. So just go ahead and start researching and talking about it to people. Like when your parents say "she has to get a master's first" you can say "well, we'll see about that, we're thinking about x venue and i've been...". :)
@Arachana:
Could you explain what you mean by "I don't really understand parents that will support you single but won't suppport you married but I know that happens and if you happen to have parents like that this might be an issue."
To me it seems natural and normal that my or my FI's parents will no longer give either of us financial support once we are married. Why would they continue to support me?
Whoo, it got a lil' heated in here, lol!!
All of this is really diverse and interesting feedback, and I appreciate it. It seems as though I need to clear things up a bit, though...
@laural: I never said I thought an education was antiquated. That was another poster's opinion of people having the idea that one had to finish a degree to be married. Just wanted to clarify :) I do agree with her, though, and I also agree that having the education is pretty much necessary.
@lilyfaith- I agree, the Fi and I have been together almost 5 years, and by the end of the engagement, it could be 6-8 years together. So yes, no rush...lol
Also, I do plan on finishing college, and not becoming June Cleaver. I work full time and go to school full time (it's exhausting!), and live at school. I pay all of my own bills. I won't have any student loans to pay off because I am fortunate enough to have scholarships. I know how much I need a degree to do anything in this economy that will be sustainable. I should also probably clarify that I was planning on going to grad school soon after graduation, like the fall or spring after, not after a gargantuan hiatus. It's just frustrating that my family was so concerned with thinking I'd be irresponsible and that they weren't even happy for me that hurt the most. Another issue is that should I choose to go out of state for grad school, the FI wants to move with me. My parents have already stated that they don't support the idea of cohabitation at all. So things are just...messy. I don't want to create a huge fight over something that should be so happy. Ugh.
@laural
Totally. I would be embarassed to ask for money from my parents for living expenses once married. I know they will be there if there is a crisis, but that is just a family thing. Getting married and not being able to support ourselves are totally inconsistent in my book.
@sapphire
One thing your parents may be worried about is that you will get married and then give your career up or put it in the back seat. Plenty of women do it. And though few men say it before marriage, there are still a decent number of guys who don't value women's careers (not impugning your fiance, these are possibly just your parents' fears).
The best remedy for everything is open and honest dialogue. Don't just go on their comments, go and talk to them, best of all with your fi by your side. AND go armed with a plan: when you want to get married, how you will support yourselves (if that's an issue), and what your education plan will be.
Hey Sapphirelady--
I just had to chime in here because our situations sound so similar :)
I got engaged 6 months before finishing my B.F.A. and while I wasn't planning on getting my M.F.A. (or at least not in the next ten years), my parents put a lot of pressure on us to have a long engagement and were not supportive of us wedding planning at all. It was really hard on me because I wanted to be able to take my mom dress shopping and be all happy and she just kept putting me off and making snarky comments until I finally decided to go with friends instead.
If your parents are anything like mine, they will come around a few months before the wedding. Does that make this time any easier? No. But maybe it will lift your spirits to know that they will be happy for you when the important time comes.
Get married when you and your guy want to. Listen to the advice they give and see if anything they say appeals to you, but if it doesn't, don't let them decide how your life will go for you. Do what you want and be strong and they will probably eventually see that you are put together and serious enough to know what you're doing and will start believing that you're doing the right thing.
Big hugs and PM me if you need anything!
I definitely see financial independence as a must before marriage. I will have student loans to pay off, but we can deal with that. R is lucky enough not to have any.
@laural - I'm glad, sorry it was a lil' fuzzy before! ;)
@ Star: I definitely get what you're saying when you talk about finding the dress- it's kind of 'that thing' that you want to experience as mom (or aunt, grandma, etc.) and daughter.
Thanks everyone for your advice, encouragement and honest thoughts- definitely helped with perspective and planning. I know parents only want what's best, and I'll definitely try and slowly "introduce" them to the planning process.
I kind of know how you feel. My parents wanted to make sure I would be graduated first too before I was married, not really for finincial reasons, but just to calm them a bit I guess. I will be graduating in May (FI already graduated), and my wedding is not until July, thankfully, but I hope things start to look up to for you soon, and plus you can always look at wedding stuff if you wish. Are they really behind you staring over your shoulder 24/7? and hey even if you wanted to buy something for the wedding, even if it was something small, like stuff for a DIY project you could always do that too.
I think that it is just your parents being protective. They want to make sure you make good decisions and have a good life for yourself. Also, remember that you are their little girl. I think my dad went through that a bit. We planned our wedding to be 13 months after we got engaged and my dad thought that it was too soon. At first I felt like he didn't support us but I figured out he was just being a parent and I was his little girl all grown up.
Laural, because I don't understand what marriage has to do with it.
Marriage is not a life style choice.
Marriage is the decision to commit to a romantic life partner. Where do the finances come in to it? Some people talk about marriage as if it's a graduate class.
As someone else said, I would be embarassed to ask for money from my parents once married but I would be just as emabrassed to ask them after I was a certain age, out of school, whatever.
I actually think the idea of marriage as a certain type of life is very prevelant in our society and a cause for unhappiness and divorce. I think people frequently want to get married not because they found a person they want to be with always but because they want that lifestyle that they associate with marriage. They are a lot of different ways to have a marriage! I don't think living with your parents as a married couple is any less valid than living on your own. In other countries that's the norm.
I don't understand refusing to support your child because they made decisions you don't agree with. I would be sad if my child was incapable of making decisions about their own life at 21. I would think I had failed in raising them right. Financial support that comes from love shouldn't come with strings, imo.
Saphire:
If I'm interpreting things right this is more about the fact that your parents are dismissive of your relationship and desire to plan for the future in terms of your personal life rather than their desire for you to get your MFA? That is completely understandable. You've been with your guy for years and they seem (from what I understand) to be sending the message to you that that's not very important. I would talk to them and let them know that you want to and are going to pursue a master's degree, but that it hurts when they respond to your relationship, engagement, ect like its not an important part of your life as well (that it should take the back burner).
To add: I am often bothered when people think that you can't get married or plan a wedding while going to school or what not. You are the most qualified person to decide this. Not your parents. Not us.
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