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Just like you can't go against your religious beliefs, then it is unfair to ask him to do the same.
I understand where both of you are coming from. I think it's admirable of him though to not do something that goes against his beliefs, so maybe you can try to think of that as a positive.
Hmmm...is there maybe a compromise? Like you can do the prayer alone, or maybe play the song Ave Maria somewhere during your ceremony?
@yumkarepie: :( That can't be any fun. But personally, being very strong in my own personal faith, if FI asked me to do something that was against my beliefs, I would pick Jesus over him, hands down. Don't think I love FI less for it, but I just love Jesus more. And that kind of sounds like what your FI thinks to.
I'm not Catholic, but are there any other wedding traditions you might include that would be less contriversal to him? I'm pretty sure communion is frequently included in Catholic wedding mass (I think?) and since other denominations practice this rite too, would that be something he might be okay with?
And honestly, again this is just MHO, but would you really want to be marrying a man (when it seems faith and relgion are important to you) who would just throw what he believes about something as important as his relgion to the wind for you? I think this is something that needs to be addressed, because not only your wedding, but what about future children? You say you attend the same church together now but will you want your children christened, taking first communion and confirmed in a Catholic church? Or in the church you currently attend?
I totally get that your culture and how you were raise is uber important to you. But it also seems this is one thing your FI isn't willing to budge on. I vote, try to find some other aspect to include that reflects how you grew up without compromising what your FI currently believes.
That would be a deal breaker for me on his side, you are asking to break with his religion for a song, not fair, IMO, and I am a protestant and ex catholic.
Compromise works both ways. You should be proud of your FI for not compromising his beliefs. Many less devout men would just do what you tell them...
I'd like to echo MademoiselleL.
Could you incorporate an acoustic version of the song, or would he still feel unsettled about that?
I am in a similar situation..one in which i have a tense relationship with my Catholic dad. I have converted to my fiance's non-denominational Christian Church as well...It was a huge decision for me...Believe me it has NOTHING to do with him not loving you. At the end of the day a husband has to answer for his wife and family. I to was not into denying my Catholic upbringing, but by being respectful to others esp parents.At the end of the day..no wat is in ur heart cuz i guess kids will be in the situation to eventually.
You are putting more weight paying homage to family and their traditions than to your husbands real life faith. Im pretty sure both Catholics and Non-denominational all believe that God comes first in the marriage.
Is it just that Ava Maria is a traditional song that people do at weddings (and you want to please your fam), or does it really mean something holy to you like it does your husband?
To me religion is a deal breaker! My guess is that your FI is not going to agree to anything " Catholic" because the majority of it is blasphemous from his point of view.
I hope there is something yall can work out!
Aw thanks for the quick responses everyone. You're absolutely right- he has firm beliefs and I really respect him for that. And it's true, I shouldn't expect him to do something he's not comfortable with or something that he doesn't believe in.
Do any Protestants think it would be any different, if we had the statue and presented flowers as a way of honoring her as the Mother of God and as a model for my life starting out as a wife and potential mother?
I understand that Protestants don't believe in praying to Mary, so if we just presented flowers as a sign of respect, would that be less offensive?
@yumkarepie: I would see that as an offense to God, IMO. If you are getting married in a church, you would be hard pressed to find a pastor to allow that.
@yumkarepie: I would see the flowers & the statue as idol worship!
hmmmm. I'm not sure in what way to include your heritage in the ceremony...what does your FI imagine the ceremony as?
@tksjewelry: An offense to God? But Mary birthed Jesus! What's wrong with honoring that? We're not worshipping Mary, we only worship ONE God.
Also, we are renting a church and are allowed to bring in any pastor/priests that we want and can organize the ceremony any way that we want...
I think you could say something about how you see Mary as a role model of a mother and wife...but the statue might not be allowed in a protestant church unfortunately.
@yumkarepie: Like Argentina said more eloquently, I would see that as idolatry and therefore an offense to God. Protestants do not honor her and I know that it is something engrained to us as Catholics, but she is seen as no more than a servant just like you and I. I am not sure how you could bring in most Catholic traditions into a wedding, as I have forgotten more than I remember. Maybe you could go to the pastor performing the wedding and see what he suggests.
Yes, I have already contacted our Pastor. We are renting an empty church- and we can bring in whoever/whatever we want. We just have to find a pastor/priest that would be willing to honor both Catholic and Protestant beliefs. If that's even possible. Ugh.
In terms of honoring Mary, she is not worshipped in the same sense that we worship God:
From Wikipedia: "Adoration, which is known as latria in classical theology, is the worship and homage that is rightly offered to God alone. It is the acknowledgement of excellence and perfection of an uncreated, divine person. It is the worship of the Creator that God alone deserves.
Veneration, known as dulia in classical theology, is the honor due to the excellence of a created person. This refers to the excellence exhibited by the created being who likewise deserves recognition and honor. Veneration is given to Mary and the Saints."
I just don't see what the big deal is :(
I am a nice little mix of Catholic and Protestant (baptized Catholic, confirmed Lutheran, but that's a-whole-nother story!), and I personally align with the Protestant stance on all of the Mary business.
I pray to and worship only God. To me, yes, praying to Mary or laying flowers at her statue's feet would be blasphemy/idolatry. While I'm okay to see others do it (like at a wedding I was in last month), I would never involve those things in my own wedding (or in my regular practice of faith), even if the Mr. wanted them.
There are some Catholic traditions (wedding-related and otherwise) that I ADORE, such as lighting candles in memoriam, taking communion, and having each member of the procession make a small bow in front of the altar before being seated/stepping up. Are there some traditions like that you two could agree upon?
An interfaith relationship can be a tricky mesh, but you do want a ceremony that reflects you both, and that both of you are spiritually connected to/represented in. The freedom that you having in arranging your ceremony sounds WONDERFUL, and I am confident that you two will figure out a great compromise, and have a gorgeous wedding!
I agree that it would be seen as idol worship by anyone other than Catholics most likely. Protestants don't honor her at all. She was just a regular person chosen by God. They don't honor the Saints either. It would be seen as worship if you laid flowers in front of a statue of Mary.
I (and perhaps your FI?) believe that the honor given to Mary/Saints through Veneration rightly and ultimately belongs to God, not matter how incredibly amazing those people were/are.
I know you don't agree, but I hope that helps you see where your FI is coming from?
I didn't want to be the one to say it, but I agree with the PP, there is no way I would ever include something like that for Mary in my wedding. Most Christian denominations believe while Mary is important since she did birth Christ, however that does NOT mean one should pray to her, and laying anything at the feet of a staute would just seem off... And promise, I mean no offence to Catholics (really, lots of good friends who are) but pretty much any other denomination agree, adoration and venheration belong ONLY to God, he is a jealous God and does not share. So are there great role models in saints and Mary? of Course! But in the end, they were still just human while Christ was fully God and man.
I still think there are some deeper issues here yall need to deal with because obviously, this is a bigger deal to you than just saying an Ave at your wedding, since relgion is important to both of you, there needs to be some discussion about what role it will play in your life, not just your wedding.
Yes, I understand now. Thank you.
I think in the big picture, it's just something small. It's just a quick ceremony. In the long run, this will be forgotten.
My tears just keep falling because if I'm being completely honest- I feel guilty for denying what my parents have worked so hard to instill in me (Catholicism), and it hurts my heart to think that I am letting them down.
My eyes hurt from crying and my chest feels heavy. I think it's time to sleep on this one.
Thanks for all of your great perspectives. I understand more now.
OP, I'm worried because it sounds like this is actually a big source of conflict between you and FI. I get where you are coming from because Catholicisim is not just a belief system (which you no longer belong to), it's also a cherished part of your cultural heritage. It's an important part of who you are. When he rejects that it's kind of like he's rejecting part of you. Not good if he expects you to spend the rest of your life with him.
But at the same time he's stuck between a rock and a hard place - he can't go against his conscience on his wedding day, you know? That would be awful for him to go through.
Would it be helpful to explain to him that the Ave Maria is a biblical prayer? The first half of the lyrics,
Ave Maria, gratia, plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus frustus ventrisu tui, Jesu
come directly from the Gospel. See Luke 1:28. He can't reject that first part of it without rejecting the Bible. If you ever get a chance to visit Italy hand see the ancient Christian catacombs, you will see graves from the earliest centuries (believers who died under Diocletian etc) originally marked with the phrase Ave Maria.
The other thing is that it's NOT a prayer to Mary. A lot of Protestants get confused about this because their churches don't actually go over the text, they just teach their people that "Catholics pray to Mary and worship Mary" and leave it at that. If you actually read it, it's asking Mary to pray TO God for YOU.
"Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen." This is no different than asking anybody else to pray for you.
Your FI might object that Mary is dead and you can't ask dead people to pray for you. This, I have never understood from a Christian perspective. I mean don't most Christians believe the soul is immortal and dead believers are still alive with God? More alive than ever given that they are in God's glory? I don't know if he will be influenced by any of this. There's a lot of misinformation out there and confusion from people who don't quite understand what it is Catholics believe and what the Hail Mary is. It's basically an urban legend where it just gets repeated so often and people don't go back to the source to find out what the truth is.
There are also a lot of good resources for explaining it CORRECTLY, but unfortunately a lot of them are designed for helping people in various stages of converting from evangelical Protestantism. I am SURE he is not interested in that,and I'm afraid it might turn him off the information and make him even MORE anti-Ave Maria if he views the source as trying to convert him. There is a great forum called Phatmass where if you post a question the people usually take a more relaxed, friendly and informative approach.
I empathize with you, greatly. I converted to Catholicism when I was 15. My cousin had moved down from NY (where a lot of people are Catholic) and I started going to church with her down here (where a lot of people are highly ignorant about Catholicism). Since I've converted I've faced nothing but religious scrutiny from family and friends. Most people's number one stupidest phrase is, "I pray to God, not Mary, like you Catholics." I try to explain that nobody prays TO Mary, or worships her instead of God. It seems like nobody here understands that Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity. They refuse to believe it. My FI repeated talks about the bad history of Catholicism and how "un-Christian" it is. I've explained until I am blue in the face that the Catholic bible is the same as any other Christian churches, but with seven (?) extra books that were left out of the King James version. I am so sick and utterly tired of defending my religion to people, inckuding FI. I am not a practicing Catholic, but I still believe in the Catholic way. As soon as I mention my religion to someone, I hear, "Did you get molested?" Umm, no. Not every priest is a child molestor. Of course, you're ONLY going to hear about the bad ones on the news, though. Ughh, whatever.
My ancestor (who is now a saint) is well known to have prayed to Joseph to help him heal people. and listed as one of the top Catholics listed in the past century. Just sayin'
@creativeplannertobee: this again is one of those popular misconceptions people have. Many Catholics fuel it in casual speech by saying things like "pray to St. Anthony when you lose something!" or "I'm going to go light a candle to St. Joseph" or "I prayed to St. Angela and she healed me."
Your ancestor did not pray "to" St. Joseph - not if he was a good Catholic. If he was a pagan, maybe.
What he did if he WAS a good Catholic, was ask for St. Joseph's intercession - in other words he asked Joseph to pray for whatever person needed healing. The same way you would ask a friend or relative to pray for you. St. Joseph is someone who we know was very close to God during his life on earth and is with God now, so it makes sense to ask him to add his prayers to our own.
It's actually a part of the process of canonization - the process of being named an official saint. There has to be some evidence that person X's prayers are effective before they can be called Saint X. Basically, evidence that God listens when Saint so-and so prays.
They are going through this process now with Mother Teresa - there has already been at least one healing attributed to the prayers of Teresa which has been certified by secular physicians as medically unexplainable. I believe there have to be three such certified events. Please note, that doesn't mean the doctors involved believe in any of it. Just that they officially have no explanation for what happened.
The distinction is easy to miss for outsiders or even Catholics who were brought up hearing colloquialisms like "say a prayer to St. Jude" and were never properly catechized.
OP - I found out there may be a solution, if just having the melody would be acceptable to you? There's basically a Protestant "version" of the Ave Maria called the Ave Redemptor. If you google it the Latin lyrics will come up. It is Jesus-centric and can be sung to the same melody as Ave Maria. I don't know if that might be a good compromise?
Okay, I know i'm a few days late but I know EXACTLEY what you are going through! I was born and raised Catholic. Both sides of my family attend the same church, and all of my aunts, uncles and cousins have so far been married in the catholic church. I had always been under the impression that regardless if I was a strict Catholic or not (I'm not AT ALL. I don't even attend Mass and haven't since I was 18. I am now 23) that I would always be married in the Catholic church because that's what my family did.
I then started dating my FI. His father was born in Macedonia and is VERY proud of his backround. Having come from there, he was raised in the Orthodox church. I realize that Catholicism was taken from the Orthodox religion so in relaity it isn't THAT different. But trust me, it is different enough from the religion that I grew up woth to be a problem.
My FI cannot stand the Catholic religion so having our wedding in the Catholic church was totally out of the question. This really threw me for a loop because I had no idea what other churches were like so I started attending church with him. I love his church and what it stands for so I had NO problem at all with having our wedding ceremony on his church. My family on the other hand had an absolute cow. My older sister (our relationship isn't the best as it is...) refused to consider attending our wedding, much less being in it.
We have been engaged for over 6 months now and it has finally died down. I am fortunate enough in a way that if we get married in the Orthodox church, the Catholic church recognizes the union as well, just not the other way around. So in a way, everyone is happy.
I had asked my parents if they honestly felt as if I were turning my back on all I had been raised on, the beliefs and all. My parents said no. I am not currently converting my religion as of now, but I may decide to later on when we have children so there would be no confusion. Both of my parents understand how things chnage and so do minds and plans. I had never planned to not be married catholic but they understand that he will soon be my husband and that it is MY life. They raised me how they saw fit and now as my mother said "it's time to make your life your life. As long as you believe in God and Jesus Christ whatever you decide to do i will support"
If the only thing you are worried about is your parents feeling as if you turned your back on them and the religion you grew up with, don't. Or talk to them about it. If the only reason you want anything Catholic in your wedding is because of your parents and not for you, then it's the wrong reason.
Hope this helps!
OP, I think you could find some Catholic traditions to include without involving Mary. However, I don't think that you should do this just to please your parents when you do not seem to identify yourself as Catholic any longer. My parents wish I was having a Catholic ceremony, but it does not align with my fiance and myself's beliefs. Your parents taught you about Catholicism, and it is what they believe - but that does not mean you have to make the same choice for yourself. And your wedding is a bad time to start choosing your parents' beliefs over yours and your FI's.
Is there some othger way you could incorporate a family tradition? For example, my parents are Catholic but I'm not comfortable with mention of God or Jesus in our ceremony as myself and FI are both most definitely agnostic. But I am reading an Irish Poem (technically a blessing, but with no religious mention) to honor my family's Irish heritage. To me it makes more sense to honor something solid like heritage than something that people can have different opinions on, like religious beliefs, if not everyone's beliefs mesh.
I want to emphasize again that Catholic's opinions of Mary do not equal idol worship or worshipping anyone but God. Like Magdalena said, the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from the Bible, so yes, it is biblical. But a lot of Protestants do not see praying to saints that way. They say it is not possible to pray/talk to someone who is dead. But the Bible reminds us that those who believe in Christ never die and so it's not "talking to dead people." While some Protestants are truly against the role of Mary, for the majority of people it is just a misunderstanding of what the role is. Christ instituted the role of Mary as "mother" of the Church (John 19:26-27).
But that's all beside the point wedding-wise. Here are a few things I would suggest:
* Could you do both the kneeling in front of the cross and the Ave Maria? I don't think it would have to be one or the other.
* If you lay flowers at a statue of Mary you could include a note in the program that says something like "We lay flowers at the feet of the Virgin Mary in remembrance of Christ's Holy Family which gave us the perfect example of love and self-sacrifice, all the values which are important to us as we enter this marriage and raise a family. As we stand here, we pray (to God) that we might always be able to follow the model shown to us by Christ."
* Consider taking a few RCIA classes with your fiance at your local parish, even if you don't want to be Catholic anymore. It might help him understand where you are coming from, something which will be important later on down the road.
* Incorporate other Catholic traditions like the sign of peace.
* Don't do communion as a compromise to Catholics. If you want to do it for yourselves, that's fine, but Catholics do not take communion in other churches. So logistically, it wouldn't work as a compromise. But mainly, the point is very different. Catholics take communion because we believe it is the body/blood of Christ, whereas to Protestants it is just a symbol.
Good luck!
Wow, wow. I remember people making these same comments when I was a kid. Catholics DO NOT worship Mary. Adoration and veneration do not worship make. As a non-religious person, I shall now bow out. Good luck to you OP!
Anything that is an integral part of your ceremony needs to reflect the shared beliefs of you and your future husband. If you want to honour your Catholic roots on your wedding day, do it in a small personal way that will not require your FH to be involved in anything he's uncomfortable with.
Were you ever given a rosary? The first thing that comes to mind is wrapping a rosary around your bouquet. That way you could still carry a part of your Catholic upbringing with you as you go about your ceremony, without your FH having to be involved.
I feel like this thread has gotten a little off-topic, turning from the OP asking for some advice to a debate about Catholicism vs. Protestantism. While that's very interesting, it wasn't the point of the original post and is completely irrelevant.
@yumkarepie:Let me ask this question: Do you feel like your FH and yourself truly understand what the other believes? If he so adamantly doesn't believe in something that you just as passionately believe in, you need to discuss this rather than shove it under the rug.
I'm not saying that interfaith marriages don't work; my best friend grew up with a Jewish father and a Catholic mother, and those two individuals were more in love than any othe couple I've ever witnessed.
However, the two of you do need to reach some sort of agreement on how religion will be handled in your marriage.
Think about how complicated it will be if you ever throw kids into the mix someday. Are you going to have conflicting views about how to raise them religiously?
It's something that no one but the two of you can find common ground on, but just remember what PPs said: you wouldn't want him to try to make you include a tradition you didn't agree with, so why should you make him do it?
Good luck to you!
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Here's the back story: I was raised Catholic and was practicing Catholic until my college years. At that time, I wouldn't say I stepped away, but I was not attending mass regularly because I wasn't getting anything out of the mass. I was really confused and looking for more, maybe doing some soul searching. I met my SO who is a devout non-denominational Christian. Because religion was so important to him, and because I was looking for more and spiritual growth myself, we started attending different non-denom churches together. Some of the ones we tried were too contemporary for my liking or comfort level, so we settled on a more traditional Presbytarian church that we both really like.
So as I've explored religions, I've realized that my beliefs align more with Protestantism.... but it's scary and sad for me to deny the way that I was raised and what I was taught by the most important people in my life- my parents. It's just sad to me! I don't know why, I'm an adult, I make my own decisions...anyhow, I'm comfortable and satisfied with the church that SO and I attend and the beliefs that we share. Having said that...I'd still like to incorporate Catholic traditions into my wedding ceremony because it's important to me- it's an homage to the way that I was raised, homage to my family's faith, it's just important to me. I'm very traditional and family oriented, so it's extremely difficult (so much so my chest feels so heavy) for me to feel like I'm denying and rejecting my upbringing and family's beliefs. Instead, I want to honor my family and be respectful of all beliefs.
So here's the problem. My SO says he won't do the Ave Maria at our wedding ceremony because he doesn't believe it and it's not biblically sound. He says he doesn't believe in and has never prayed to Mary or asked for her to pray for us. He said he'd kneel in front of a cross and pray for Jesus to watch over us. He said he just won't do it. He said I can do it, but he won't compromise his beliefs. That would be really sad for me to go alone- but maybe that wouldn't be as bad as I think.
I completely understand that it goes against his beliefs, but it's important to me. It's an important tradition and I can't deny my Catholic upbringing. I'm not sure if I can have a ceremony without it....
I'm really confused. I told SO that I questioned if he really loved me for not willing to do this one thing for me but he said it has nothing to do with his love for me. I just keep thinking that there are so many men out there who would convert for their woman, there are so many interfaith weddings that honor two different belief systems- so why can't he honor the Catholic beliefs? He says that's completely different because he and I share the same beliefs and we are the same religion.
Just don't know what to do.