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So yesterday I was having a conversation with my sister about whats considered cheating and not. Its a topic that rises many debates and I would like to hear your take on it.
Heres the situation:
One of my friends is in relationship and is chatting with a friend online. Shes known this guy for a awhile and they've chatted in the past. They've always been chatting in a flirty manner... nothing over the top but still... sending pictures, sexual (joking) comments...
If she wanted she could stop this all together... but seems to continue because she finds it "fun" She doesnt feel like shes doing anything wrong and says "I can look but can't touch" She loves her husband with all her heart and would never do anything to jeopardize that....
Many say, that men consider cheating when its physical and woman tend to go with the emotional route. So what do you think? If your in a relationship (married or not) is flirting over the net considered cheating?
Feel free to comment :)
This is a really interesting question. I answered 50/50, which I'll explain. Both my husband and I have friends with whom we have flirty relationships. By flirty I mean we talk a lot and banter and make pseudo sexual innuendo. HOWEVER, it is clear to everyone involved-- my husband, myself, and these friends-- that my husband and I love each other and would never ever go beyond the acceptable boundaries we've established. The reason these relationships are the way they are is because that's how they've always been, and since my husband and I were friends before we were romantically involved, we've witnessed these friendships in action. It also helps that the friends we "flirt" with are all in their own long-term, monogamous relationships as well.
Now, if I or my husband met some new person, developed a flirtation, sent pictures online, etc... that WOULD be crossing a BIG line.
I completely agree with you Amandopolis... It is a 50/50 and it really depends on the relationship you have with your boyfriend/fiance/husband.
For example; my husband and I are open about these things. He works with all girls (and though I havent meet any of them) he talks to me about their flirty relationship and it doesnt bother me because he is honest about it and same goes with me.
I have guy friends too that im flirty with... its just fun, but NEVER EVER would I cross the line. I love my husband and our relationship is way more important than a fling. I want him to be the father of my children, and that is very important for me.
My sister says its considered cheating, I say 50/50 and my friend say it isnt...
We all have different views and thats what makes it so hard... a thin line.
Here are my honest thoughts, as a woman who will be married in October.
Yes, it is on the border of cheating. If you go this far, than more likely than not, you will go farther. I know that if I "flirted" or talked to another man in a flirtatious manner, I would feel completely awful and guilty and just would be sick with myself.
Also, if fiance did it, I would be really hurt and just feel really horrible about it in general ... even if I knew there was nothing physical, I would still be hurt inside.
This situation is completely different for everyone and has been argued for all of eternity! Lol. I think everyon will have a different feeling on this, and however that certain person feels, is honestly their own answer to this question.
Now, fiance does have a flirty personality, like in the way he talks and acts, it's very smooth. I wouldn't mind if he says something "smooth" or whatever, but if he actually had a relationship where he talked to someone, like in the original post, that would really upset me.
Interesting topic. Honestly, I have a very flirty personality. I'll flirt with almost anyone, women probably included. To be fair, though, usually I don't know I'm doing it. I'm a nice person who likes conversation, but because I wear low cut shirts and go out to bars without my FI sometimes, it's viewed as flirting. I think it's less dangerous to flirt with random strangers who you'll never see again than people you've had sexual relationships with.
Now, I also have close guy friends who I flirt with. But like Flamingo said, I've known them for a long time, that's how our relationships have always been, many are in serious relationships, and my FI knows them/knows how we are.
Having an ongoing flirtatious relationship with some one, however, is a different story. Especially if it's over text messaging or computer chatting. Sending pictures is not OK. Flirting in that manner implies that you have something to hide. Flamingo said that it's a thin line and I totally agree with that.
I say yes. Not just yes, but YES. I don't think it's a secret that I have cheated on SO's in the past -- you can get that from reading between the lines of many of my posts about past relationships. I was a huge flirt, and figured it was okay because I didn't mean anything by it, didn't intend anything, wasn't serious.
I was wrong. Just because I didn't mean anything didn't mean nobody else did, and for someone who gets a high from being liked or admired or enjoyed (that would be me), it was a dangerous slippery slope. I think that's the critical factor - do you feel a little bit high from the exchange? If you do, then I think it's wrong.
So my policy is 100% no flirting. If I wouldn't say something in front of a man's wife, I don't say it. My loyalty is to my husband, period, and if I'm looking to feel good, I find it within the bounds of the relationships I have... or I ride my motorcycle.
{Note: this is all from personal experience and based on my personality and knowledge of myself, so I'm not implying that I think everyone has to handle it like I do. I just don't always buy the "it doesn't mean anything" argument. If you feel happy and bouncy and high from the exchange, it means something. :) }
I think it depends on the nature of the couple's relationship and how much trust is involved. I have a lot of guy friends. I think there is just a flirty element to guy/girl friendships. It doesn't make it wrong. As long as he/she is upfront about their romantic realtionships.
I do keep in contact with one of my ex boyfriends (my fiance was classmates with one of them). One time he came over to our apartment while visiting in town and we hung out while my FI (boyfriend at the time) wasn't home. I asked him if it was okay before and he said it was fine...really. I told one of my guy friends from work about this and he said if it were him, he would have freaked out if his girl's ex was there.
chatting to another guy online is huge no-no for a married woman, thats downright cheating
if you talk to peopel of the opposite sex I thinks its fine, you cant just talk to women, but online cheating...cheating, cheating cheating..the thoughts are there
yes, i vote yes, because it means your giving your emotional or even sexual attention to another person that it's not your SO or FI or BF or whatever. It means you're giving yourself the time to compliment someone else, instead of doing that to your partner. I'm with Mrs. Cheese on this: 'my loyalty is to my husband'.
This is a tough one. I think it depends. I certainly wouldn't throw a person under the bus for chatting with someone of the opposite sex, or even if they joked a it, in a general way. (Not joking specifically about each other.) And if these are two people who are exclusively hanging out with just each otehr, that's not OK.
I think that joking and chatting can be a slippery slope. I think in a gradual way it can lead you down a path that you don't want to beon, before you know you're there.
So I think a person needs to really be conscious and aware of what they are doing, and how innocent it is, on their part, and the part of the person or people they're hanging with.
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It's interesting that people on here are kind of fixated on the online aspect of the scenario. According to the OP, the two people in question have known each other for a while, chatted in the past, the flirting isn't over the top, but some of the jokes are sexual. If the relationship was in person rather than online, would it be ok?
Thanks everyone for your opinions.
Ya, I think is really touchy. I dont know her past relationships... but because shes getting a "high" from it... its a YES
Its hard for me, cuz Ive always had flirty relationships in the past... same for Mr.F
I have never cheated or been cheated on, so maybe my take is different than someone who has.
Huh... fine line... and can be very dangerous.
It's completely inappropriate - I'll bet the friend would not be happy if her husband was doing that with another woman, no matter who she was. In my opinion she is disrespecting herself, her husband and their marriage whether you consider it cheating or not.
I get very uncomfortable when a guy flirts with me or even looks at me 'that way'. I don't want to give anyone the impression that I'm flirting back or open to that kind of interaction. Of course I am human and joke with my fiance that I think Bruce Willis circa Die Hard is hot stuff, but this is totally different - she is having an inappropriate relationship with another guy.
For me, definitely YES. But, this does come from my own personal experience. I know that I have cheated on my boyfriends in the past (yeah ... more than once ...). It was stupid and something that I regret deeply. I didn't stop to realize that I was doing it, and it started with only chatting and a bit of flirting banter and quickly got out of hand.
I won't let myself jeopardize the amazing relationship that I have with my FI by starting up this behavior again. I would also be pretty upset if he did the same - it's just not his style, and it would signal to me that something is wrong.
Perhaps for other couples it's different, but not for us.
@Flamingo - This is a great topic!
I am in total agreement with Mrs. Cheese. To me and my FI, flirting is cheating. I believe that flirting is a form of attraction which can lead to much more. You may think that you are only flirting but the other person may take it as something more. I have seen it happen. If you have an emotional bond with another person (not your SO) then it is like cheating even if it never leads to anything physical but that is just my opinion.
Now, I don't believe that talking to someone of the opposite sex is cheating or going to a bar without your SO is cheating. Having long conversations on a frequent basis is borderline, if not crossing the line for me, especially if it is an ex. My FI is allowed to have friends of the opposite sex (he really doesn't but he can). I have many friends or acquaintences of the opposite sex but I don't spend quality time with them. I don't even allow my FI's boys to be at my house alone without him. It just doesn't feel right.
Now for those that feel that it isn't cheating, are you OK with your SO to flirt with other women?
Also, do you believe men and women can be friends without sex or feelings getting involved?
I'm with Mrs. Cheese. We are human, flawed and weak. Why add any temptation to the situation by tantalizing yourself or someone else?
I take a hard line on this because in my younger days I have been hurt by and have hurt others with flirting. Why risk hurting the person you love the most in the world?
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cheating.
(I think a good test would be to think about if it would gross you out if your husband was doing that... and for me, I would be totally heartbroken. 100% totally not okay in my book.)
I say it depends as well... I think I'm just kind of flirty by nature, not because I try to be, I just am, and I don't even notice it. I have a guy friend that I talk to online, but, it is someone I knew before I even met my hubby, and he lives all the way in Singapore so there is really no chance of anything happening (I wouldn't want it even if there were!). However, I don't think its wrong to chat and be a little flirty on the internet, AS LONG AS EACH PERSON IS AWARE OF IT! That's the biggest thing. If she's hiding this from her hubby, it's wrong. That's when she knows she's doing something he wouldnt approve of, and that crosses the line. Maybe it's not technically cheating yet (if they start sending nekky pics of themselves, or they are talking about what they'd do to each other sexually, even if it's a joke, then it SO is). But, as long as each person would be totally 100% comfortable with their spouse reading over their convos and knows it wont cause a big problem, then I think it's ok. But, if spouse disapproves, that means its time to stop or tone it down.
I'm also with Mrs. Cheese on this one- anything that you would do in front of your husband/him in front of you is not something I would consider cheating. To me it seems that the level of "cheat" comes into play when it becomes secretive, regardless of the degree of activitiy.
Pictures and sexy jokes is not OK. I'd personally die if I found out my FI/husband were doing this with someone. In my mind, flirting is cheating, but some couples might have looser interpretations of what is appropriate and what is not. I'm with Tiramisu... if the tables were turned, would I be devestated? Yes. Maybe that's not the case for your friend and her husband though.
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Agreed with Cheese on the "getting a high" thing and also I think that if it's something you would not do/say IN FRONT OF your husband/FI, it's wrong.
I think this is where a line comes up--I think it's fine to have friends of the opposite sex, and like sometimes when my FI and I are out together male friends will say things that could be inappropriate if they were saying it to me in private or something--but it's just a big joke when it's all of us messing around. It's a very sitational thing, but your sister's situation sounds (to me) like it's inappropriate. I don't know if I'd actually call it full on cheating, but definitely something I wouldn't want my FI doing and that I wouldn't do myself. It's just too easy for something like that to devolve into something way worse, and it sounds like she is emotionally attached to this guy and the "high" she gets from talking to him.
I think that we all -- men and women -- get a high from being hit on or flirted with. It's human nature. But I agree that if you feel, deep in the pit of your stomach, that you wouldn't want your husband to do the same thing or don't want him to see the conversation you're having, you are definitely doing something wrong. Flirting will usually lead to something more. I do think it is like putting your emotional focus on someone other than your man.
Yes, it can feel good to be hit on or flirted with... but it's wrong. Go home, put on a sexy outfit and let your man flirt with you all you want! :)
I second cheese with a resounding YES! I haven't cheated in the past, but I have found that flirting and attention makes me feel good. My husband knows that I like to flirt (and he's seen me in action!), so I never thought it bothered him. Until this past winter, when he confessed that it actually bothers him a lot. He said that when he walks by my office and I am chatting and smiling with one of our co-workers or friends, it hurts his feelings. He wants to be the only one who can bring out that side of me.
Honestly, that made me do a complete 180. I realized that I would be completely jealous and hurt if all of his energy and attention was being spent on someone else. I also realized that if these flirtations and conversations really meant nothing to me, if they were completely innocent and harmless, I should have no problem quitting. I tried to sanitize my relationships with co-workers and friends, and now I try to give all my attention to my husband only. In fact, if I am having a conversation or emailing someone and it looks like I might be crossing that line, I include my husband. I call him on the phone or forward him the emails.
I don't think just talking with someone else is cheating, but once you start going outside the relationship to find some kind of fulfillment, that crosses a line for me. If my husband's not around and I want attention, I call my mom or my sisters, or I get on WB. Those are much safer/respectable avenues to get attention, imo.
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Well to furter more my friends situation:
Shes been friends with this person for a while and husband knows about it. Pictures she has or sends are pics found online (wedding pics, family pics ...etc (example: Facebook account, Flickr)
Oh and the guy is also married... and in between their comments they talk about their husband and wife. So they both acknowledge that is purely online. (Heck they live in two different provinces (states for you US peeps)
Now, if I were seeing Mr.F do that - chatting and sending pics, I would have a conversation with him but would not be considering it as cheating... he jokes about sex with girls all the time and im around. Same goes for me... its just how we are and we accept it. (No disrespect intented)
But I totally agree with your views on the subject... if it was to the point that she feels bad about it. Or hides if from her husband... YA ITS CHEATING.YIKES!
I don't think it's cheating if her husband knows about it and the pictures are not just of her in skimpy outfits, etc. I was thinking she was sending him dirty pics, dirty emails, etc. If it is normal chatting, with a few sexual jokes thrown in, I don't think it's cheating.
I agree with Ms. Cheese and couldn't have said it any better - I won't say something to a guy that I wouldn't say in front of his wife and/or my FI.
I have to admit I think it is flattering to have a girl go up to my FI and try and flirt with him b/c #1, he is not the flirty type and #2 he is that cute and he is all mine and coming home with me! :-) I trust him 100% and I know he trusts me, too. I honestly think that sometimes it is healthy to flirt b/c it honestly makes me love and appreciate my FI all the more. Well, maybe I should say when guys flirt with me b/c I don't necessarily do it back.
But people can take flirting too far and it can create a huge temptation that can lead into physical cheating.
It's treading in dangerous waters... where does it stop? Sure it starts out as innocent flirting. Lets say you get in a big fight with your spouse... then you go running to your flirty friend and start trashing your SO because you're angry. Your online love starts reassuring you, blowing smoke up your butt... you think, Oh he'd never do a,b,c to me like my SO does! Suddenly your friend looks even more appealing.
I voted yes because it can easily turn into something more than just talking...
I personally would not feel good if I found my Fiance was "chatting online" with another woman; would you?
In person it's different, people know how to draw the line, people have to smile at each other banter to get their ways at diners or with the auto mechanic etc, it's not considered cheating, but when you go out of your way and make sexual innuendos online thats a whole different ballpark; you are going out of your way to do and a lot more can be said online because its a computer; in real life, there are social barriers that prevent you and the other party from going beyond that fine line
once a guy starts hitting on me I usually mention the fiance because I dont want to lead men on or have them get the wrong idea;
so funny one time I was at a swanky bar watching the opera singers sing in NYC I was researching looking for opera singers, a guy said you like opera, I said yeah, I'm looking for a singer for my wedding he immediately went away; kind of funny; another guy at customs as I came home asked questions related to the customs then asked one more question if I had a boyfriend, I said no I'm engaged, he smiled and walked away--funny how guys stop when you say something
bottom line online chatting is a whole different animal and even in life you should know where to draw the line
I agree with Amandopolis. My BFF and FI joke around a lot, but I don't get mad or upset b/c I know its completely harmless. Pretty much all of our friends are mutual, and yes I do get flirty with some of the guys, but again always around FI and open about it and it never gets sexual. I do agree that if it was someone that FI didn't know it would be cheating, which is why if I plan on making a friendship with a new guy (mostly through work) then I make it a point to have him meet FI so that he's comfortable with me talking to the guy. We have both been cheated on deceived in our past relationships so cheating is a huge NO, and we both agree that our relationship is forever and nothing will break that bound. If I ever got that feeling for a guy, I would end the friendship immediately b/c I would never want to hurt FI. We're very open about our feelings which is one reason why I am confident that this would never be an issue
I would like to mention that on the rare occasions that I go out without FI to a bar or dancing, I always come home to tell him about the guys who flirt with me or try to pick me up. One night in particular stands out to me when I had 3 different good looking guys come up to me in the same night and talk to me, it gave me a major ego boost and he noticed and asked me about it. I told him yes it made me feel good to be desired by someone else but in all honestly it just made me want to go home and ravage him...so I guess he really didn't have a reason to be mad 
I think there is a HUGE difference between having a flirty personality in your everyday dealings with people, and with carrying on an actual relationship (internet or in person) in which flirting and sexual innuendo are the order of the day. The first case is not what I would necessarily categorize as cheating, although depending on the people involved, it might not be the best idea for the long-term health of your primary relationship. The second case is absolutely cheating and totally disrespectful of your SO.
I think having a flirty personality in general is different from engaging in friendships that specifically have a flirty tone to them. That little bit of gratification you get from the exchange is a slippery slope. I'm not saying it leads to cheating, but it means you're going outside yourself and your relationship for a certain amount of gratification and satisfaction that might not be a positive move for your relationship.
Also, for what it's worth, my husband believes pretty strongly that male/female friendships only work well when all parties are single, and even then they're usually based on mutual attraction (sexual orientation aside, of course). He's of the mind that most of the time there is dormant but significant attraction going on between heterosexual male/female friendships.
I for one have deliberately avoided becoming friends with people where I can tell there is mild attraction, and have taken steps to modify or end friendships where I felt this type of boundary crossing was being initiated by the other person (or was no longer appropriate, in the case of flirty friendships that pre-date my relationship with my husband).
I think it depends on the boundaries set within their relationship. If her husband is OK with it and it's not hurting anything, it's not cheating. If it is secret, forbidden, and harmful, it is cheating.
West Coast Bride-- does your husband think that women are sexually attracted to all of their male friends? I mean, I'd say I feel significant attraction to my male friends, but it's the same attraction that I feel towards my female friends. Just because I love my guy friends doesn't mean I want to sleep with them all! And even if it were the case that I was sexually attracted to every guy friend I have, I'm not going to sleep with all of them- it's all about being accountable in your behavior, right? Does your husband seriously expect you to have no male friends?
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Wow I was really shocked when I read some of the answers to this. I think that's about all I can say.
I voted 50/50... there are some of my guy friends that I have a brother-like relationship with... I tease them and sometimes I'll make a joke like "Wow, X, that was SO sexy" when one of them burps or farts. Yeah, I know, I'm one of the dudes. :) I even offered to take one of my guy friends on a friend-date last night (I called it a "December and X date" in the text I sent him) cause his pseudo-girlfriend dumped him, but he wanted other people around, not because of tension but just because he figured with more people he was less likely to get emotional. And as I texted him setting this up I was talking to my husband the whole time, planning how I would take X out to the restaurant and then afterwards, take him over to my husband's security job so they could hang out and talk.
On the other hand, there are friends who there is more "weirdness" or tension with, that we just don't go there. Most of them have girlfriends. We don't hang out together alone, we talk about fairly neutral things or our SO's, we don't pay compliments or comment on each other's bodies (beyond the fact that one of them has got a gut he wants to lose and we compare my baby bump to it). There's also a guy at work that I know is married, and he knows I am married, and he is just too friendly for me. I'm sure he means well, but I just don't feel comfortable with long conversations or teasing with him, so I don't.
I guess it boils down to 1. whether your SO knows and condones of how you interact with whatever person it is and 2. how you respond/feel with each individual. If it feels "weird" or like there's sexual tension, and you would be uncomfortable acting that way with your SO there, don't do it!
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I am in complete agreement with Mrs. Cheese about the idea of getting a "high" from the interaction. I think it is perfectly possible for men and women to have platonic friendships with each other but I do believe there's appropriate and inappropriate behavior within these friendships. In my relationship between my DH and I, we both feel comfortable with each other interacting with someone of the opposite sex but our interactions with the opposite sex should be as platonic as our interactions with someone of the same sex.
It's entirely possible for me to carry on a conversation with a man, even a fun, joking conversation with a man, without it turning "flirty." I also think most of us can recognize our own flirty behavior and we can recognize when a friendship gives us that relationship "high" that Mrs. Cheese talks about. Having a conversation/friendship with someone of the opposite sex isn't cheating; having a flirty friendship with someone of the opposite sex is cheating (for my relationship).
To me, flirting is an attempt to engage the member of the opposite sex, make yourself attractive to them, and make them feel like you find them attractive. Being overly touchy with a friend, excessively complimenting them, laughing hard at a joke that's not funny - I think most of us understand when we're being polite, friendly, and caring with someone and when we're being flirty. In my relationship, this kind of behavior is cheating because it creates a level of intimacy between the friends that goes beyond platonic friendship.
Here's how I view it...
Would you still do it if your significant other were sitting/standing right next to you, and could see it?
If the answer is no, then it's cheating. You are betraying his/her trust in you.
My FI and I have had to work on this exact subject early on in our relationship. What I mean by that is that I am a VERY flirty person, its just me! Well my FI has been bothered by some of the things I do. For example, he didn't really like the way I was dancing with his friends, basically certain songs & types of dances are okay, others not so much. So, I respect what he conisderes "over the top flirting."
Another example, would be my interaction with my old boss. FI thought he had a thing for me, so he asked that we never go out to dinner or drinks alone; if there was a group of people from work, no biggie, just not alone. I'll admit there was innocent flirting that occured between my boss and I, but I agreed with my FI that going to dinner or drinks alone would totally be crossing the line.
I think there is a level of flirting in which the flirting can cross over into "cheating" or at least be inappropriate. But IMO innocent flirting or chatting isn't crossing the line.
It's cheating if you're by definition breaking the rules of your relationship. To know what the rules of your relationship are, you have to know each other well and have discussed them.
If you feel reticent to discuss your behavior with your partner, that's probably because you're breaking the rules. So then you need to either reevaluate the rules or the behavior. Either way, discrepencies in the affect should be discussed with your partner.
That's the most clinical way I can think to describe what I think it the process for pretty much everyone. I think so long as you're on the same page, it doesn't matter if that's the same page as other couples or even what book you're reading.
chelseamorning.... WELL SAID. I agree with you 110%!
Each couple has different rules and what may be obvious cheating in one couple, is purely flirting in another. But like you said, you need to discuss this with your partner and establish whats accepted and not...
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