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I'm looking for both Christian and non-Christian answers to this one!
I'm sure most of you know in the Bible it states "wives submit to your husbands". I was reading an article where the husband punished their son differently than the wife thought he should have (not abusively though, just differently) and the wife had to tell herself that she was to submit to her husband and not argue.
I am Christian, so I believe what the Bible says is true, but I have a hard time thinking that I can't speak my mind or whatever. Opinions??
ETA : I agree this "one section" is definitely blown out of proportion and you have to read the whole passage. Just curious on other's opinions! :)
holyshitfuck no!
Ahem. Sorry. I'm not a Christian, but stuff like this has always been my reasoning as to why I'm not.
There is no way in this universe that I would EVER marry a man who would expect me to submit to him. Heck! I wouldn't even date someone who gave that impression.
I'm the dominant, he's the submissive, that's the way our relationship works.
We're both happy.
No. We won't make a decision unless both of us are on board with it 100%. There has never been a time in our marriage where we've been at odds over something and I say "Well, you're the man, I trust you to make the final decision." No no. Not judging the many happy and peaceful marriages who find this works for them, but I am far too much of a control freak for that.
ha, i would like to see my husband try!
but.... i do treat him as man of the house, we live a very 1950's homelife where he is called when dinner is on the table ready for him, he doesnt do any chores and i dont even change the color of our towels because he likes blue, he is very much pampered.
hes not demanded any of this - its what i like to do for him because there is many things he does for me - im a physcial take charge type of person and i show my love by doing things whereas hes emotional so we balance eachother because we recongnize that we are equals but we bring different important parts to our marriage
I respect my fiance but I would never say that I "submit" to him. In fact, I have the stronger (and sometimes slight abrasive and definitely opinated) personality and he is a people pleaser and extremely easy going, so I would say he sometimes submits to me. BUT I prefer for him not to, because I don't ever want him to be resentful of how often I get my way. It's been over 3 years (together, not married yet) and he's learning to say no to me, and I listen or we find a compromise when he does because it's so rare he does.
I'm not a Christian though and don't follow the bible. So I'm not sure if that makes a difference.
I won't ever submit to a man again. Husband or otherwise. Mister believes I am his partner, his equal. And therefore that I should have an equal say in matters of the two of us. He does not step into me and my children, since they are not his, unless I ask. We challenge each other, that was what brought us together, and I won't become a doormat just because the bible says so. Because, it also says I can sell my daughter into slavery.
Not an option in our household. We make decisions together and I certainly wouldn;t step back and say well since you are the man. I learned how to have my own independence for too long. I did submit at one point to a man, it was an abusive relationship and that is a road I will never go down again.
@Lemma: No not at all. I am not perfect by any means and I (personally) belive that while the Bible is not up for interpretation, perhaps we sometimes read the verses the wrong way. Hence why I want opinions here. Also I'm just curious.
ETA : Since I'm asking your opinions here's mine! I personally believe we should be equals, although I'm definitely too controlling and need to step back sometimes!! ;)
Ok good. You had me worried there. I'd say that this is one of the things that the bible is quite wrong about.
I believe that God gave both men and women brains so they could use them. A marriage is a partnership not a dictatorship. I believe a marriage in which a women keeps her opinions and thoughts to herself is only going to lead to resentment and unhappiness.
I am a christian but I do not follow every single thing thats written in the bible. For some people that makes me a horrible person but whatever....
I think we are created equal and just because hes a man doesnt mean hes better than I am or has the final say so.
Anyone that knows us in RL knows I run this show! LMAO
Whaaaaaaaa?! No way! We make all decisions together! It can be a challenge sometimes because our opintion for mot things is usually "I don't know"
A marriage is a partnership and I think that both individuals need to treat each other like equals.
@soon2bhis: Despite what the bible says, doing what feels right and comfortable and true to yourself is never the wrong path. Just like there are many Christians who do not believe homosexuality is a sin, there are many women who embrace their place in the household as a partner to their husband, not a submissive role.
There is something that you have to remember about the Bible... It was ALL written by men. There is not a single verse in there that was written by women. Do you really think that there wasn't an earthly spin on it?
I'm sure there would have been verses on "Men, respect your wives. Take your share of the household duties and remember to wipe up your spillages" had women had a say in it.
@Lemma: I feel like this verse was talked about once in Church but maybe I'm making this up, so take it with a grain of salt. Right by this verse (either before or after) it talks about how a husband should love and respect his wife. So by both people doing what was commanded, it should "even out" in a way because you're both doing what is right for the other.
Nope never.
I'm not a Christian but my grandparents are and they raised me... living with them I definitely saw my grandfather submit to my grandmother though lol. She runs that household without a doubt and they are very very very about their religious stuff.
No way, we are partners and a team, not an employee who has to take orders from the boss.
No, but I also don't think that the Bible tells only women to submit to their husbands and leaves it at that. The quote is taken way out of context.
Here's a great link that I think is a great interpretation of the section that verse is found in.
If you don't want to read it, the gist of it is- both husbands and wives are to submit to each other and follow each other and make sacrifices for each other. Not just wives obeying their husbands- that's not what it really says.
ETA: I'm a Christian, as you probably guessed.
And yes, the Bible does in fact instruct men to love and respect their wives as well.
For me it's really important that we make decisions together, especially when it comes to rearing children. But, if one of us says something important or gives a punishment that the other doesn't agree with, I don't think that you should speak up in front of the child. It's important for you to agree with his punishment on the spot, but speak with him afterwards and maybe come to an agreement as to what you will do about this in the future, a compromise. It's good to have some set different roles, but I prefer equality overall, and so does my SO.
I don't personally buy the whole "wives, submit to your husbands" idea as it sounds so literally, but I think this verse has a tendancy to get blown out of porportion, and to some it may be a little offensive sounding. But, there is a flip side to this-I think it goes "husbands, cherish your wives, love her as you love yourself" We went over this at pre-marriage class and even the pastor was having a hard time with explaining the whole submissive wife concept to make sense in modern times. Basically it came down to this: as long as there is balance, love and equal respect for eachother, the relationship should thrive.
For those with the Christian questions
That verse , is tied into a whole paragraph of direction. The problem is if a man is living up to his end of the clause, the woman should not have any negative connotations in "submission"
Theres a balance here. He isnt your master and your arent his slave. He is supposed to protect you and ask for advice and many other things, and you are supposed to encourage him and so many other things.
Its a balance.
@Eight6Eleven: Oh good I didn't make up what I tried to explain earlier. Thanks for saying it better than I did!
Ephesians 5:22-28
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
The first paragraph talks about the woman's role. The second about the man's role. It is the woman's job to submit to everything. The man is encouraged to treat his wife well because she belongs to him. I don't think this evens out.
I did actually google the verse and found that it's actually not as contraversial as the initial phrase suggests it is.
We are in a role reversal of the traditional relationship, though, where I'm the steady breadwinner and head of the household (even in the government's eyes) and he is currently a househusband and happily submits to me in almost everything.
I get that the whole thing is about trusting your spouse to make the best, most honorable choice for you and the well being of your family. That after you've both discussed it at length if there is still uncertainty it's left to the man to do what's best for all involved depsite perhaps, his own personal wishes. And that biblically, the final decision rests with the man.
But why can't it rest with me?
@KatyElle: I believe it was a vain attempt to reverse the natural order of things where the woman always had the final say. For this, please see "Jewish Mother".
I've always been taught that if a man truly loves his wife as Christ loves the church, there is nothing more important to him than her well being. Meaning yea, women should respect their husbands, but that husbands are never to act selfishly but rather to put her needs so far above his own that hed literally sacrifice himself for her. I believe it's meant to be an equal give and take, not just "him treating her well". As for us personally, we make decisions together. But I respect him and his decisions, while he always looks out for me as his #1, not himself. We are equals who care for each others needs, and I think that's more what that passage is trying to encourage.
It doesn't read that way to me, but I'm very glad that you and your SO follow your interpretation.
Nope. I don't submit. He and I meet half way. We compromise in order to make decisions if one of us doesn't agree. We are both in control of different aspects in the relationship.
@Lemma: I'll respectfully disagree with your interpretation, though the Bible is meant to be interpreted so there's no right and wrong answer here.
However, you say wives have a "job" and men are "encouraged". But I see it as, in a functioning relationship, both must fulfill their roles completely. If a man isn't doing those things, then he isn't doing right. And if you are familiar with the Christian belief of Christ's love, living up to loving like Christ loved us is a really huge standard. It compares the husband to Christ- Christ isn't harsh and quick to judge and punish, he teaches with love. So what I see it as saying is that a husband should be loving and a wife should be loving as well.
Also, the Bible states that marriage joins the couple into one flesh. So it's not saying the man owns her, it's referring to the woman as part of the man's body, and though it doesn't explicitly say so, the man is part of the woman's body.
Yes. Not always, but it is my heart to get better at it. =)
If something comes up that I don't agree with we definitley talk about it, but not then if it's something about DS doing something/not doing something right at that moment. I mean even if I don't agree with whatever DH is doing/how it's not like it's going to "harm"/abuse DS.
This aspect isn't really about "submitting" though but rather staying unified infront the children. My parents were the exact opposite and you better believe my sister and I knew how to "divide and conquer".
For other things, It's not that DH just totally disregards my feelings or opinions though, and numerous times even if he doesn't agree right off the bat, my humble heart in conveying the issue definitely helps in him thinking about it later and he's come back being able to see my side alot of the time.
Wives submitting is usually HIGHLY mis-understood b/c it's been taught sooooo wrong for soooo long and domineering, NOT loving, husbands have used it to abuse their wives & families so they can continue in their selfishness
The best teaching I ever went through on Ehp 5: wives submitting & husbands loving & sacrificing/nuturing/growing, went all the way back to the garden and how it's when we follow these commands of marriage that we
1. become most attractive to our spouses since women need love/security and men need respect/honor and
2. that we suppress our own sin nature: women to control and men to become passive.
When both husbands and wives do their part in following this, the marriage works how it was intended to and both parties are fulfilled. The thing is though, even when your spouse isn't doing their part, you STILL do your part. I HIGHLY recommend the teaching series Indestructible Marriage by Jimmy Evans b/c it's just SO awesome! =)
My husband and I joke about it all the time because we both personally find the idea hilarious. We are a team, and we couldn't imagine it any other way.
"living up to loving like Christ loved [you]" is a wonderful sentiment and I wholehearted support anybody who tries to do this. Unfortunately, so often I hear of some Christians who seem to have never heard of this idea. How can you have so much hate in you (e.g. towards homosexuals) if you are trying to love like Christ?
So forgive me when I worry that the part about Christ might not be focussed on, and the part that could be used for hate (women must submit) might be. It was in fact like this for many years in the past, was it not?
I dont appreciate the word submit. However, if we are conflicted on an issue and both of us think our answers are right, I wholeheartedly believe the man should have the last say. It avoids unnecessary conflict.
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