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If so how have you been affected by it, what are your experiences?
I am so proud of the Hive's commentary in the Social Conservative Gay Unions vs Marriage thread that I thought it was time to perhaps brooch another subject that was brought up there.
Personally I have experienced racism in Louisiana, Tennessee, and Mississippi. In Louisiana I have heard my ex-coworkers call people nappy headed, in Tennessee while attending Vanderbilt, I have seen racial caricatures, and in Mississippi I have been called the N-word. Strangely enough all of this happened in my adulthood. As a child I believed racism was a thing of the past, it wasn't relevant in my generation. As an adult, I am not too sure. I was proud to have an African American elected president, until I went to work and heard that a "Kenyan" was elected president. I was then embarrassed by my coworkers and afraid of the retaliation against the President.
The point of this thread is to bridge the gap of ignorance versus understanding another culture, not to point fingers. There is often not enough thought given to an experience or it just becomes an aside in a newspaper, a footnote in a book.
And while this seems un-wedding related, it completely is. How many African American couples have you seen in your photographer's blog, wedding planner's website, or florist's lookbook?
I'm sad to say that I truly believe racism still exists in my city. Our police force is known for not always being above board (hell, our whole CITY is known for that) and I've seen it first hand - R and I get no trouble, but some of our African American friends will be stopped for being "suspicious" when they're just walking down the street. Seriously? In this day and age? I remember Obama actually got ridiculed for commenting on this (his comment was specific to having trouble catching a cab) and people just dug into him... but I can tell you firsthand that it still happens.
There's also a huge amount of racism against Mexicans in the town my parents live. It has a really high Mexican population (R's school was majority Mexican) and a fair number of illegal aliens. So the stereotypes and racism abound. It's really sad to see, because I truly believe that the stereotypes come more from the result of living in poverty than anything about race. Isn't it oh so easy to point fingers about how people on welfare handle themselves and live their lives when you've always had everything provided to you?
i would definately say that there are still forms of racism out there.
i once met a lady who called a town up here (whitby) white-by because she claimed that there should only be white people let it.
thankfully as a larger nation of people i would say it's not as dominant, but it's definately still around.
I think you just answered your own question, cre. We aren't post-racial, whatever that means, anyway.
What I'd like to know is how to have more productive conversations about race.
ETA: @lily - that is a good example of how it does still exist. Depending on who you speak to though, I believe the preferred term is undocumented immigrant.
How many African American couples have you seen in your photographer's blog, wedding planner's website, or florist's lookbook?
- You won't see any in mine, but because NO ONE hires me of that race! I blog all my couples regardless of size, race, whatever...
I've met with maybe 2 black couples and both times I wasn't hired - and a black one was. At bridal shows, I've had HUNDREDS of african american brides come through and gush at my work, not a single one has EVER contacted me. So... I don't know, but it makes me really sad that people may think I'm racist because I haven't been hired by a certain ethnicity.
I take that back, if you go back in my blog to 2007 I had a bi-racial couple for a portrait session... but I doubt anyone goes back that far...
Great post, Crebre80...
I think racism is definitely still present in the US, but like you mentioned, when I was little I didn't think it did. It's so sad that it persists, especially in specific regions (sorry to hate on the South but seriously?!?!)
I'm sorry you've had some pretty negative, insensitive comments...For what it's worth, I've heard my share of anti-Jew comments (and I'm Jewish) and while I don't think it's totally comparable, I can somewhat relate...
@jduck: it becomes difficult because it's such a touchy situation... some people (myself included) would have said heck no racism doesn't exist (about 10 years ago I didn't believe it did). I thought it was just an excuse that some black people made up to not do certain things like go to college, get a great job etc. I know better now and it saddens me.
@cre - I know, I was there too, probably six years ago as a freshman/sophomore in college. I guess I was lucky in that I didn't experience it personally as a younger person, and didn't learn about systemic racism, until I was older.
@KLP - in psychology, there is some research out there that says that some clients prefer to see counselors of their own racial/ethnic background. I wonder if that applies elsewhere, beyond the field of counseling/psychology, too.
@KLP: it's a very hard thing as an African American (speaking from personal experience)... you want to go with the best photographer but you don't want to be seen as not giving your own race a chance because if the shoe was on the other foot you feel that a Caucasian couple wouldn't hire them. Now I can say professionally this isn't the case for me because I have a pretty mixed clientele (and I must say that I am surprised by it)... and I can say that I love your pix KLP and man oh man if I was in your area you'd be first choice for those sultry e-pix that you take :D
@trailmix: i definitely think the anti-semitic phrases are racism. hatred of one person, creed, or culture is racism to me. the south isn't all bad, but it's very interesting sometimes. after beginning my business i haven't experienced racism in the least bit (which still surprises me)...
@crebre love the thread question... this is my experience and no one else...
i was born and race in Puerto Rico... there are racism in Puerto Rico but i never experience it... I move to MA in 2007 when i graduated form collage becuase my daughter was really sick and needed medical attention, someone offer housing and help but when i arrive they change their mind and i was in the streets with my 4yo daughter. i started looking for work and it was clear to me puerto rican carry and stigma, this are my examples:
1) i went to welfare because at the time i need it help. the lady was so rude to me and then said a comment that it was so shocking to me: "you people come here to live from the goverment" i was so mad i started loosing my patience and stormed out of the place... went to live in a shelter for three weeks until i found a place to live...
2) looking for apartment i call this place and the lady gave me an appointment to see the apartment. when i arrive to the place she took one look at me and told me she though i was american, to my surprise i told her i was to what she replied "no, you are not. you are a SPEAK" (thats how some people call puerto rican in usa.
3) in a job agency they told me that some companies dont even look at a resume when they read a spanish name in it... i tried and it was true... two resumes to same place. the two of them were the same, the only thing that change was the name, one with my real name and one with a non hispanic name... the call the one with the non hispanic name, i went to the interview and when the saw me the interview lasted 2 minutes...
4) last one im a spanish teacher in middle school and i see a lot of parent that dont want their kids to learn spanish because racist reasons...
This are my experiences... i do understand that here where i live there are a lot of puerto rican living a bad life and behaving really bad but still not everybody is the same... for me is sad to watch the news every night and 95% of the criminals are puerto rican or half... is sad to be judge by the actions of others and not mine...
my daughter is 7 and her skin is darker than my FI and I. one day we were in walmart and one of my student saw me, i introduce my daughter to that student and the first comment was "why she is darker than you?" i was in total shock... i smile and said because everybody is different. my daughter asked me int he car why she was darker and i have to explain to her that puerto rican comes in every color and that her great grandparents were black...
all of these had been a great learning experience about reality and life...
There are two different forms of racism being talked about here.
One is more of a personal racism (i.e. Uncle Buck hates all blacks and mexicans) and the other is more of a societal form of racism. When people say that racism doesn't exist they tend to be talking about personal racism because it is less acceptable to say racial slurs and such in public.
I took a class in college called "The Politics of Difference" and it really opened up my eyes to social injustices in our country. It talked a lot about white privilege and whether you believe it or not, simply being white (or male, or straight, or Christian) in this country gives you more of a privilege than those who are not.
I live in a small beach suburb of LA. LA itself is very diverse but everyone in my city is white or asian for the most part. It is a well known fact that just being black or mexican puts you on the police's radar :/
@jduck: totally agree. 10 years ago I was 19 (showing my age here lol) up until then I thought that brains and great boobs would get me everywhere I wanted to go (sooo conceited but true)... and then I learned the truth. And I still say that brains and my smile and well sometimes my boobs get me a lot of doors opened that wouldn't necessarily be opened. It's like I feel like I have to work 10x as hard because people don't expect me too and if I fail, people expect it from me.
For example my son is having the hardest time in school in math. The teacher's seem surprised that I am shocked that he isn't doing well (as if a black kid cannot succeed). It is as if no one in the school cares and my son doesn't care and has a very strange attitude as if he doesn't believe he can do the work. Why in the world would he think that?! He's sooo smart and I ask him about his teachers and he shrugs his shoulders. However, I am sure if he was blonde with blue eyes they would assist him more. I get seethingly angry and have to watch my tongue with his teachers before I turn into the stereotypical angry black woman. Thank goodness I use multi-syllabic words when I am angry and tend to curse when I am agitated (backwards I know lol)
@magenta: my ex fiance was Nicaraguan and trust me I understand everything that you speak of. I completely agree that Hispanics are discriminated against and I honestly have never met any Hispanic person that isn't hard working and honest. I think the bigoted idiot that sat across from me used some racial term that I had never heard of and I had to ask her what it meant (yes I'm ignorant like that to racial terms) after she told me I had to respond "You know my best friend is Colombian, right?!" She just hmm'd and haw'd...
I have never heard of anyone not wanting their children to learn spanish?! that's insane. I try to teach my son as much Spanish and French as I know (although he's more interested in Spanish because he has a crush on a little spanish girl lol)...
How many African American couples have you seen in your photographer's blog, wedding planner's website, or florist's lookbook?
i picked my photographer for two things:
one - her pictures were gorgeous AND she was well within my price range
two - she had a wide range of ethnicities in her porfolio
because my wedding will be a rainbow of colors to include me and FH, i had to make sure the photographer was able to shoot different skin tones - within the same shot. many of times i see pictures of me and FH or me and other friends where i look either darker than i am or they look uber pasty.
i wanted pictures that were true to life.
@KLP - that might be why black brides gush over your photos but ultimately dont contact you - while your pictures could be museum worthy, they need to know that you can shoot all tones. have you thought of having friends help you out by doing impromptu shoots just to have them to show brides that you have that range? it definately helped when i was choosing!
I think it does. We like to think it doesn't, and in certain areas of the country, you can pretend it doesn't (as long as you only hang out with people of your own race who don't ACTIVELY say anything bad about those of other races), but it does.
I went to college in Mississippi, at a Christian college in Jackson. Dr. John M. Perkins (http://www.jmpf.org/content/) was a frequent speaker at our weekly chapels, talking about racial reconcilation, and I went to one of the two truly multi-racial churches in Jackson with his daughter. I heard about race reconciliation all the time, and at first, as a white, middle class girl coming from Minneapolis, I thought it was a load of crap. It really, really is not, especially in Mississippi. What I think is really sad to see is what some people call "reverse" racism, which is black-on-white racism. I went to school with a young man who was a really passionate political activist, fairly intelligent, who I tried my darndest to respect, but he kept throwing up race at me whenever I tried to have discussions with me. I was white, he was black, therefore he was right. That's an example of personal racism, but I think there are definitely social instances on all sides against all races... we just don't want to try to understand those who are different from us.
well crebre that has been my life here and im used to it... when we bought the house all the neigboors were behaving really strange the day we were moving in... and i took some time but we did understood why... in our street and neighborhood we are the only Hispanic so i can imagine what the thought. but as i said before im getting used to it and teaching my daughter about it
@mag: lol i am so accustomed to being the only black person in places that I am not sure if I notice if someone is behaving strangely :D
oops forgot to answer the initial question: does racisim exist in America?
Definately. and im sure everyone has heard the stories of what goes on today.
HOWEVER, sometimes i think people attribute things to someone being racist when sometimes thats not the case.
for example - *a woman (not saying how i know her in case she sees this) i know looooves to attribute every bad thing that happens to her "because shes black" but in all honesty - this lady is a terror to be around. Shes hard to work with, always putting people down and being mean, and when people dont want to hang around her, or shy away from talking to her, she thinks its because shes black or a woman. sometimes youre just an a$$. *sigh*
but theres definately racism - and another thing i have noticed, the racism withIN the black community is sometimes worse than outside. for instance with my sister and myself - shes much darker than me. the difference in how we get treated is shocking sometimes.
@december - i always like to say theres no such thing as "reverse" racism - minorities can be just as racist - doesnt make it "in reverse".
sometimes i feel bad for FH - here in DC the majority is actually minorities. alot of the time anytime he disagrees with someone they just call him "the man" i know it gets to him.
ignorance knows no color :)
@Magenta -- I'm Puerto Rican too, but I'm extremely pale, so I guess I can "pass" for white. A couple years ago I went to a salon to get a haircut and the woman who was cutting my hair was making some small-talk with me, and I don't even remember how the conversation went there but at one point she said something about how she doesn't like when there's signs in Spanish in some places because "those people" should learn English. I asked her what she meant by "those people" and she said "Well you know, all those illegals. The Mexicans, the Puerto Ricans, the Dominicans". She seemed a bit frazzled when I told her that I'm Puerto Rican and then she said "But your English is so good, and you don't even look Puerto Rican!" all excited, as if that were a compliment. Oh joy... racism and an extra dose of ignorance, since she mentioned PR's as being illegals, which we're not since we're all US citizens...
OMG this is totally what i believed as a child, there was no racism just silly people like your example here:
for example - *a woman (not saying how i know her in case she sees this) i know looooves to attribute every bad thing that happens to her "because shes black" but in all honesty - this lady is a terror to be around. Shes hard to work with, always putting people down and being mean, and when people dont want to hang around her, or shy away from talking to her, she thinks its because shes black or a woman. sometimes youre just an a$$. *sigh*
but I wonder if the woman experienced something that just made her bitter and she in turn puts out what she gets in and is putting it out even when it's not neccesary? i don't think that my ethnicity has ever stopped me from getting anything I wanted, i do feel that people are surprised that i'm black and own my company. a lot of times clients ask where the owner is and i say she's around, she's always around :D lmao!!
LMAO I'm crazy.
Good topic crebre...I will try to take a stab at answering
I would say that racism definitely does still exist in America. Having been born and raised in the south....there were mutiple incidents of blatant racism.
I can remember when my oldest brother and sister used to walk to my aunt's house, this man used to let his dogs out every single time and they would have to run home crying. My dad took care of it, but it upset him to no end that he had to....that an adult would let dogs out with the intention of scaring/hurting a couple of kids just because of the color of their skin.
My sister and I walked to the corner store once as children maybe 8 & 9, or 9 & 10 and a couple of guys made the comment about the two of us being "old enough" if things were the way that they used to be. The store owner, a long time friend of the family kicked them out of the store. We didn't understand we just felt somehow embarrassed or "less" but when the movie "A Time to Kill" and others like that came out...I understood. Imagine someone wishing for a time when they could rape or sexually abuse a child based on skin color and not have to face punishment....it boggles the mind.
These and many other incidents to name occurred when I was a child. I have found as I have gotten older....the racism is still there. Sometimes it's due to ignorance, sometimes it's due to workplace competition, sometimes it rears it's ugly head due to an urge a person(s) has to belong to something...anything...but it's there. In some ways I think the fact that there are "closet racists" makes it harder for everyone else. We all know they exist, but since we don't now who they are...we tend to distrust everyone who doesn't look like us. It can make for really awkward interactions with people of different races.
There a couple questions/comments that irk me more than others. I am more than happy to answer questions about my heritage, my culture...all of the above...but there is a WAY to ask. Here are a few that make my teeth ache:
Anything that involves the phrase "you people"
Any requests that involve touching my hair....My 12 year old daughter was made to feel very uncomfortable b/c this lady seated beside her at the opera decided it would be a good idea to run her hands through my daughter's hair to see "how it felt". My MANAGER asked me once if he could squeeze my afro puff. Umm...hello...I am not an animal in a petting zoo and neither is my child.
I don't really have any answers about how to end racism except to try to teach my daughter that all people deserve respect and a fair shot until they give you a reason not to respect them. I encourage her to use logic AND emotion when dealing with people. I try to teach her that my way is not the only way and encourage her to interact with people of all races, religions, etc.
azula: my english is good but i still have an accent and im white but still look puerto rican (maybe is my big behind) lol... but i know what you mean by people thinking we are not american
@spaganya - I think you're right that "reverse racism" is a misnomer.
People of color can be mean or ignorant or discriminatory to each other or to White people, but I don't think that's "racism."
In general, I think a lot of people think of racism as an individual saying a racial slur or having negative feelings toward someone of a different race. These things are bad, but I think a better, more accurate meaning of racism would be: the societal, systemic, and institutional framework that explains why people of color are historically and statistically discriminated against.
Of course it exists- and it always will.. but I don't think that it prevents anyone from living the life they want to live... outside of small towns and small minds I think that the guy who can do the job gets the job.
@crebre - lol its not that i dont think theres no racism there at all but there are times when people really arent being racist towards this person but because she doesnt want to take ownership of anything she just throws her hands up and calls everyone a bigot.
true something in her life might have made her that way, but if you look at everything with 'whos trying to put me down' all the time, thats all you will see.
@what2bee - what about people who do not get job interviews because of "ethnic" sounding names, and then start getting call backs when they change their names to something more "American" sounding? ( magenta's example above, post #10 and this New York Times article speaks to this as well: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/weekinreview/06Luo.html and here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01race.html?_r=1&ref=weekinreview )
@spaganya: she has the angry black woman syndrome.. that irritates me to no end btw. i am usually peppy and happy etc and people seemed surprised by my demeanor (remember I am a darker skinned black person)... i think they expect me to be a neck rolling finger snapping sista ... lol not so much I am very dingy as is my sister. a lot of folks in the african american community call us sheltered (um wth?!) and i honestly feel that i have to prove myself to show i am black enough because of the way i speak (with my hugely southern drawl) or the way i act. it's hilarious i have to prove that i am black enough to black folks and not that type of black person to others. thank goodness in my old age (29) i have stopped giving two rats arses about what people think and am just me, take it or leave it. i make no qualms about it.
@cre - just a thought, not directed at you, but in response to your example above: There's got to be people out there who blame society, racism, the weather on all their bad luck, but that doesn't mean racism doesn't exist.
@jduck... btw up until i graduated court reporting school I went by my first name LaCresha.... after court reporting school I decided to go by my middle name Brittiny... the reason being, who would you want to hire, Brittiny or LaCresha
my mother still regrets naming me LaCresha because of all the negative stereotypes that are associated with it.
in response to those that blame everyone but themselves on their problems, i completely agree with you, but only recently did i begin to think that racism could be a factor. as a child i simply thought it was them being the angry so and so or lazy etc... (very stereotypical of me, huh?)
I would be completely ignorant to say that racism does not still exist in America. It's unfortuante and needs to change.
@crebre...that's another caricature that I wish would go the way of the dinosaur....the stereotypical "angry black woman". *sigh* I think sometimes that stereotype is thrown around as an excuse to do/not do certain things. And not just to black people by white people....but to black people by black people as well.
Sometimes being driven, confident, and having high expectations can get you slapped with the "angry black woman" tag. I really dislike that term =(
@cre - I've been there. I think I thought that way too. So much so that I'd play "devil's advocate" and have these pretty harsh conversations with my peers... looking back, I see how naive I was.
In one of my classes we are learning about racial identity development for minorities, and one theory says that people of color progress through stages - and what we're describing here fits the theory's "first" stage, called "conforming." So, I don't think what we experienced as young women is at all unusual!
@ja: lol it's been my experience that when you are darker skinned like us you are angry when you are fair skinned you are ambitious (but that's another story for a different thread i'm sure).... i am giggling because i hate that term as well which in turn leads to an attitude which leads to (you guessed it) me fulfilling the terminology.. so i just grin and bear it and respond that i am usually not angry...
@jduck:i completely agree with you. i lead a pretty sheltered childhood (even after my parent's divorce) and thought that if you worked hard, made good grades, you'd get whatever you wanted... lol yeah i still think that if you work hard make good grades and carry yourself appropriately you can do whatever you please...
I think the answer is of course.
And I honestly think that most people still have racist attitudes, even though they may not be fully conscious of it. I don't exclude myself from that.
Very decent people can be bigots. I think it is human nature to think of an us and a them. It is something you have to either not grow up with (almost impossible) or struggle to rid yourself of most of your life. I think it is a worthy struggle, but it is an aspect of our nature that you have to fight.
If anything, I wish that we would stop using racist to mean the worst person in the world. It allows people to be racist, and still think "I am not a racist" just because they aren't burning a cross in a yard. That attitude avoids the necessary hardwork of really dealing with prejudice. If we just fessed up, maybe we could all get started on the hard work of being better people.
@monita....I agree
"If anything, I wish that we would stop using racist to mean the worst person in the world. It allows people to be racist, and still think "I am not a racist" just because they aren't burning a cross in a yard. That attitude avoids the necessary hardwork of really dealing with prejudice. If we just fessed up, maybe we could all get started on the hard work of being better people."
I think that racism will exist as long as we fail to confront the subtle racism the same as we do blatant racism.
Plenty of racism in the world still. The problem is that there are plenty of people that have convinced themselves it doesn't actually exist while still buying into racist stereotypes. Two cases in point:
1) A coworker assumed I had a troubled youth and grew up with a "bad" lifestyle, having known me for all of...3 weeks? I am not certain he believed me when I said I grew up in the burbs and had a perfectly lovely upbringing.
2) There was a situation at work where my manager had cause to think he might have to fire me (it was all a misunderstanding and all was fine). I found out later that he, his manager, and his managers manager were wondering how they could get around firing me since I was a single mother and had a child to feed. Mind you? I have no kids. I've never even been pregnant. They just assumed because I was an unmarried black female in her mid 20's that I was a single mom. Awesome.
@KLP2010 I think you're in the worst chicken/egg situation. You have no black people in your book so that sends a subliminal message that you don't like/need/want to shoot black people. Of course you can't rectify that problem because no black people will hire you. It's lame. :( If your prices were a little lower, I'd totally hire you for my wedding (your photos are fabulous). You'd get a great mix of all kinds of people in every shade imaginable. :)
I think the answer is definitely, yes. For the past three years, I taught middle school in Las Vegas. My school was in a low-income neighborhood, and the vast majority of my students were Latino (mostly Mexican, some from other Central American countries.) I can't even begin to tell you how many subtly prejudiced comments I heard every time I mentioned where I taught. Nearly everyone assumed that my students must be disrespectful budding criminals who barely spoke English, and their parents were illegal immigrants or living off the government. They would have been so surprised to walk in and see my classroom full of bright, funny, well-behaved kids that I adored, whose parents worked hard and really wanted their children to succeed.
um, yes. racism still exists. racism will ALWAYS exist when stupid, uneduacated people are out there.
I'm Korean. I live in a small town in Texas. I've experienced more racism here in the last three years than I have my entire 23 years in Vegas. It's sad, but what can you do when stupid, uneducated people teach their children that it's ok to have these types of attitudes towards people?
@KLP2010 I know the feeling! I have one jamacian couple on my site and that's IT! I had another couple start talking to me then decided to go with a "black photographer because an asian photographer in their all black wedding would stand out too much" YES, the couples exact words...I was shocked...
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