Weddingbee boards

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/despite-legal-about-face-harper-has-no-intention-of-reopening-same-sex-marriage/article2299574/page1/

This article makes me sad.

Ok, not to sound dense, here, but if WE (Canadians) get merried in another country, we have to register the marriage in Canada in order for it to be legally rcognized.  And if it isn't allowed HERE, then it's not considered a legal marriage.  SO why is it so different just because it's a same sex marriage?  I have friends (male/female) who got married in Mexico in 2009.  They didn't file their paperwork in Canada right away, so their actual marriage date in Canada is months after the actual ceremony was performed in Mexico.

So why is this such a different situation, what am I not understanding or missing in the above story?

FYI I am not trying to argue against their rights, I just don't understand.

@Take The Reins:  I agree.... I'm not sure I see the difference between the mexico situation, and the gay situation. 

I think the media is blowing it out of proportion, because I got like 12 texts today asking me "Omg are you going to have to switch it to a commitment ceremony?!"  - the media is blowing it out of proportion. 

@Take The Reins:  Maybe I'm not fully getting it either, but if you were married in Mexico, wouldn't Mexico recognize the marriage?

This issue isn't that other countries aren't recognizing the marriage, it's that Canada isn't.

@eagle:  You think people would at least go beyond a headline before texting you.

This is the first I'm hearing about it, but I think the outrage is stemming from the fact that they thought their union was legal and fully recognized in Canada and it is shocking to later find out that it's not. I know from personal experience with other friends that Americans can get married in Canada and not have to register them in the states, so they probably thought it was the same (although I have no idea how, because Florida doesn't recognize any form of union). If my partner and I got married in Nova Scotia, our current and former states (NH and MD) would have recognized it.

It sucks for the couple involved--I think our 50 states just need to get on the same page--it'd make life a lot easier for those of us who travel and routinely leave the state for work and errands.

I heard about this on 680 today. Disgusting! If you get married in Canada, why is it not a legally recognized union in Canada? I understand (though don't agree with) the idea that if you get married in Canada in a same-sex marriage, then it might not be legally recognized in your home country, but upon visiting Canada, how come they cannot be seen as a legally wed couple?

Apparently PM is supposed to be "looking into this" and doesn't want to re-open debates on same-sex marraiges, so I hope that is true! I also hope they clarify legislation so that people who are married in Canada are ALWAYS recognized as legally wed in Canada, regardless of the beliefs where they are from.

Okay, glad I am not the only one somewhat confused with this issue. 

I think theirs would be recognized in Canada, IF they were Canadian citizens...

But as all their assets are held in a state that does NOT recognize their union, Canada can't rule on the divorce since the assets are not here, and since they were not legally married in their home state, Canada can't issue a divorce?

Thats how I understand it from my friends perspective; they can't go to Mexico to get a divorce because they don't live there, the divorce would have to be issued first in Canada and that produced before a divorce could be issued in mexico.  Even if they never went back to mexico, they would be considered legally divorced in Canada where it counted because they live within the court jurisdiction, laws and taxes.   I wouldn't expect there is any country that will issue a divorce to anyone who resides in another country after marriage (and I guess is not of that countries residency) because of different laws.  They can;t make rulings on children, assets, alimony etc. without consent of the governing court.

Found this on the Canadian Government website about Mexican marriage, I am guessing it's the same in Canada...

Marriage and divorce proceedings in Mexico fall under local State law and while the requirements are generally the same in all 31 states and the Federal District of the Republic, there could be some slight variations depending on the State. Therefore, it is strongly advised that you directly contact the local "Registro Civil" of the city where you intend to hold the ceremony in order to obtain complete information (there are "Oficinas del Registro Civil" in each city in Mexico). For those staying at a hotel, the management can provide you with the address of the nearest Registro Civil.

Only civil marriage is legally recognized in Mexico. A religious ceremony may be performed after presenting proof of a civil marriage, but this is without legal effect and does not replace the former. A civil wedding in Mexico is recognized in Canada.

Note: a marriage occurring in one state in Mexico cannot be legally registered in another state, nor in the Federal District.

To obtain a divorce in Mexico, you must be a resident of Mexico. Usually this process takes several months and you must reside here for at least 6 months before applying for the divorce. You may wish to retain an attorney in Mexico with experience in divorce proceedings

Also found this, and this statement to me may be why there is a hang up

"Either one or both of you have lived in a Canadian province or territory for at least one year immediately before applying for a divorce."

Same-sex and common-law marriages

Marriages between people of the same sex are legal in Canada and many people choose to live together in common-law relationships without a formal marriage ceremony. After a period of time, except in the province of Quebec, common-law couples receive a legal status that gives them the same rights and responsibilities as other married couples.

ETA:  Found this article that explains the issue a bit better, sort of?  I have to wonder though, if this was a hetero sexual couple fighting for a divorce in the same circumstances, would there be such an uproar?  Mexico has a similar requirement, why no issues there???

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/story/2012/01/12/pol-harper-same-sex-marriage.html

Divorce in Canada

You do not have to be a Canadian citizen to divorce in Canada. Either partner can apply for a divorce.

You can apply for a divorce if:

• You were legally married in Canada or abroad.

• You intend to separate from your spouse permanently or have already separated and believe the marriage is over.

• Either one or both of you have lived in a Canadian province or territory for at least one year immediately before applying for a divorce.

To get a divorce, one of the following situations must apply:

• You and your spouse have lived apart for one year and believe your marriage is over.

• Your spouse has committed adultery.

• Your spouse has been physically or mentally cruel to you.

Speak to a lawyer

To start a divorce application, people in Canada usually speak to a lawyer who practices family law. The lawyer will tell you how the law protects your rights and applies to your situation.

Thats the crux of the issue - its not a matter of the Canadian gov't falsely marrying these people... its that to petition for a Canadian divorce (GAY OR STRAIGHT) - 1 member needs to be living in Canada for a year. 

The media is taking this story and running with it. 

Plus, the person who said "the country has married 5 thousand foreign gays and it doesn't count anymore" was some dumb lawyer making big statements.  It wasn't Stephen Harper. '

I have a British-American friend who broke off her engagement to her partner before they got married in Niagra Falls because she found out she'd have to become a Canadian citizen to divorce the partner and it was "too much work for the inevitable to happen".

There's no difference between this and heterosexual couples who get married in foreign cities that the US doesn't recognize. If you want your Canadian marriage to be legal for the purposes of a future divorce because your state doesn't recognize your marriage than you must be a Canadian citizen.

@Carnival_Bride: 100 percent agree

I have no issue with the divorce ruling.  What the lawyer stated though (in my paraphrased words) was:

1. They couldn't get divorced in Canada because they weren't here for 1 year.

2. They weren't legally married in the first place.  They would only be married if it was legal in Canada and their residence.

It's the 2nd one I have issues with, not the first.  If the 2nd were true, why was a marriage licence issued in Canada in the first place?

@AB Bride: I don't think that was an educated statement by the person who said it...their marriage is legal IN Canada IF they lived here, but that doesn't mean they can get a divorce as easily as they did marriage.

I think what it comes down to, is this couple didn't do their research and read the fine print.  Who asks how to divorce when they get married in a foreign country?  Prior to this thread, I would never have given it a thought.

This is from an actual document about why the divorce was rejected:

In order for a marriage to be legally valid under Canadian law, the parties to the marriage must satisfy both the requirements of the law of the place where the marriage is celebrated (the lex loci celebrationis) with regard to the formal requirements, and the requirements of the law of domicile of the couple with regard to their legal capacity to marry one another.

Please forgive any typos, it was a pdf document that I couldn't cut and paste from.

@AB Bride: Cool, good info.  So becasue they were not able to be legally married in their residential state, their marriage cannot be considered legal in Canada even though their ceremony was preformed.

Again, though this is unfortunate for the couple, why the massive public outcry.  I would be willing to bet money that any hetero couple in the exact situation, would not get ANY press coverage, and would be told to lump it, and either live here for a year to divorce, or keep the paperwork since it's not legal anyways.

And if their marriage ISN'T legal, then why do they care if they can't legally divorce?  Shouldn't they be happy they don't have to go through all the crap of actually getting a divorce???

My personal opinion, over sensitivity to equal rights, but now that it doesn't suit them, they are calling foul.

@pigzfly: I can only go based off of what I have read.  To see the document I copied from above:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/01/12/pol-harper-same-sex-marriage.html

(the second document, page 7).

I've been discussing this with others and as far as well can tell, if this is actually upheld, Canada does not recognize many marriages of non-Canadian residents that were performed in Canada.  Interracial, people under the age of 21, people without parental consent, divorced people, etc etc etc.

@Take The Reins: The problem is that many marriage commissioners were not even aware of this.  IMO marriage licences should not have been issued if Canada would not recognize the marriage.

@pigzfly: , @BrightGreen: , @Take The Reins:

I would agree with you if this information was available to the people getting married at the time, as well as the person performing the marriage.  That's why I have no issue with divorce law, it was made available if people choose to look into it.

I do have an issue with a marriage being performed here, and not being recognized without the people who are involved being made aware of that.  I also wonder what happens if a couple who got marriage here while not residing here did eventually immigrate to Canada.

Okay, so glad I am not the only one who doesn't see the huge issue...and it's not the marriage commissioners job to know that their marriage won't be legal because it's not legal in their state(city/country etc) of residence. Nor is it the Canadian governments job to make sure that they issue a marriage liscence only to people who are legal to marry in their own state/country. 

"Canada does not recognize many marriages of non-Canadian residents that were performed in Canada.  Interracial, people under the age of 21, people without parental consent, divorced people, etc etc etc".

So what?  If you don't live in the country, why would you expect that country to recognize a marriage LEGALLY (meaning they have the ability to make final rulings on monetary issues, property held elsewhere, material posessions etc) and have the ability to grant divorce?  If they moved here, then their marriage WOULD be legal and recognized as long as they were a citizen or landed immigrant of Canada.  How impossible would the situation be (and think if this happens, it will be for ALL couples, hetero and homo or run the risk of being reverse discriminatory agianst hetero couples) if Canada was to have the ability to grant divorce to ANYONE who married within it's borders...Honestly, if Canada gives on this, I think it will open Pandora's box. 

How does that statement go..."The lack of planning on your part does not constitue an emergency on mine"

@AB Bride: Is it not YOUR job as a person getting married in a foreign country to ask those questions and educate yourself?  As an adult getting married, I would hope there would be enough maturity to not expect handholding by the government.

I am sure, had they looked and done some research that info would have been there.  And again, it's not the job  of a marriage commissioner to make sure your marriage will be legal.  They simply perform a service.  What happens after that service is NOT their problem. 

@AB Bride: If they immigrated and became landed immigrants or canadian citizens, their marriage would be fully legal and recognized because they themselves fall under canadian law's and requirements.  As a legal resident, you are part of the legal system.  As a non resident, you are not.  Therefor Canada cannot rule on domestic/family issues. However, if you move fully to Canada and become a resident, your previous country can not rule on domestic issues occurring in Canada as you are proteced by her laws/rights as a resident.

The lesbian couple in question would have a legally recognized union IF they lived here.  It's only not legal becasue they don't.

The exception is criminal cases, but they have to have permission to deal with that, which is why some criminals are extradited back to their home country to stand trial instead of being tried where they were caught.

The problem was that this information was not available to people until now (as far as I know).  I know ministers who thought they were performing a legal Canadian marriage.  Some of them may have not be willing to do the marriage had they known it wasn't legal.  Same thing with people coming here to get marriaged, simply because they thought they legally could do so here, even if their own country wouldn't recognize it.

@Take The Reins: If their marriage wasn't legal at the time it was done though, does it become legally recognized when they become residents?  I'm not sure if it's that simple.