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We are just a couple months away from the wedding, and suddenly a huge issue has come up and we are even talking about breaking up over it. I am so lost and overwhelmed by it.
We are different religions; we had agreed to raise any children with both traditions, obviously realizing that we couldn't do, say, a bar mitzvah or a first communion. However, I always assumed my kids would be baptized so they could go to church and participate in the services and traditions. The other day, it turns out that my fiance was not on the same page and is in fact completely against it. I told him that this is a non-negotiable for me. He said he feels the same way.
We've taken a couple of days to logically think this out. We've discussed this for hours and hours, and are completely lost. We love each other so much and want to be married, but I will never be happy if my kids aren't baptized. He says he'll never be happy if they are.
I don't know what to do, and I feel like we have no one to talk to. None of our friends are in interfaith relationships, so they don't have anything to say on this issue. Our families are obviously biased towards their own religion. Neither of us has a place of worship that we regularly go to, but in the past, clergy we've talked to is also biased towards their own religion. There's nothing helpful online - there's all these stories of couples who choose one religion to raise the kids in, but no stories about how to do that when you're stuck.
Canceling the wedding would be the last thing I want to do, but I don't know what else we can do. It seems irresponsible to delay this issue any longer - it's not going to fix itself.
Does anyone have any thoughts or advice that might help us?
Is it not possible in your faith tradition to wait and allow your children to decide if they want to be baptized? If they aren't baptized as children, can they not even attend services? I understand that it is important to you, but by insisting on infant/child baptism, I see it as sort of "drafting" your children into a faith without their consent. I can see how your fiance would object, if he wants parity for his religious traditions.
I grew up Protestant, but my mother decided against baptizing me or my sister as children, because she said she wanted it to be something we decided to do because it was meaningful to us.
I'm sorry I don't have any really concrete advice, but it sounds like you and your fiance have taken very black and white stances here. I wish you peace and good luck as you try to negotiate this one.
Wow, my heart really goes out to you. First, I think you should be proud of yourself for recognizing that this is such a big issue and addressing it head on. It says a lot about the two of you as a couple that you can talk about it, even though it is painful. It is also good that you are discussing it now, before the wedding.
I am in an interfaith marriage (I'm Baptist and he's Jewish), so I can relate. One thing that might be helpful, if you haven't already done this, is look at why baptism is so critical to you. For some people, religious rituals are part of their faith, and for some people, religious rituals are more about culture and tradition. My husband and I have negotiated these conflicts by first figuring out why something is important to us and then looking to see if there is a compromise. For example, regular church attendance was important to me. When I looked at why, it was less about religion and more about creating a community. So, we decided to make regular attendance at a temple a priority to give our family the sense of community.
That said, some things are simply non-negotiable. If you can't reach resolution on this issue now, I would hesitate to move forward. It only gets harder once children are involved.
Oh, how awful! Where were you going to be married - in a church or synagogue? Is there a pastor/rabbi you have been working with for the ceremony? I know you said that clergy has not been helpful in the past, but I think if you went to one clergyperson from each religion and explained that you are thinking about breaking up over this, they would help.
I really think a third party is going to be the best help here -if you don't want to talk to clergy, could you at least try a relationship counselor?
This is a huge deal, and it's really good that you talked about it in advance. But it would be terrible to walk away from the person you love. I feel so bad for you.
I was going to comment something similar to what fifinell commented. If you both plan to raise your children with both faiths, why can't your children make their own decision to be baptized when they are old enough to understand why they would want to or not want to.
Unfortunately, I'm not religious at all, so I don't think I can give you any advice either. But I do know that if my husband WAS religious, I would probably be against baptising my children as well (though I don't know if it would be a deal breaker for me... it might be close though).
I agree with @fifinella, can you just not baptise your children as infants and allow them to decide if they want to get baptised when they are older? I hope this is an option for you - I would think your FI would be okay with this if, at that time, it's the child's decision and not something you're "forcing on them" as he probably sees it now.
I wish you all the best!
That's a tough one - I'm very sorry. I'm Jewish and FI is anti-religion; however, he appreciates Jewish traditions and heritage and is fine raising our children Jewish so long as we don't raise them religious. I agree you need to figure out what baptism means to you and to FI and that might help explain why it's important to you to do it, and important for FI not to do it.
hmm, i don't usually comment on religious issues but i'm going to put one foot in the pool here.
just putting it out there: i didn't know you had to be baptized to go to church and participate in the services. however, you know better than i so, ok, is there an equivalent to a baptism in your fiance's religion that he is also willing to give up?
were you planning to go to eachother's places of worship as a family every week? have you thought about putting off your child's baptism until they are older, like in their early teens? then they could decide for themselves which religion they would like to persue and hopefully it wouldn't upset either parent.
my grandparents are both christian, but my grandfather is not religious. they worked out a way to keep everyone mostly happy when they started having kids by having my grandmother taking the kids to church every sunday, and my grandfather going for the major holidays to make her happy. he also taught a lot of those life lesson things that helped my aunts and uncles turn out to be pretty damn good people. he did not oppose the baptism thing, though, so not sure if this helps at all.
really hope there is someone here who has already been through it who can help you more. i hope you do not lose someone you love so much over a religion your children may not even want to be a part of. good luck sweetheart!
you need to go see a couples/marriage counselor - they are the only unbiased person you can turn to really at this point. they will help you figure out and learn to communicate about these important issues and help you talk about hot button topics (like religion) in a way that is positive and non-threatening to you both. i would not call off the wedding unless you have already exhausted this option.
i am also interfaith - i'm jewish and FI is chinese and not religious. we did a number of pre-marital counseling sessions and it was extremely helpful (not just this issue of religion/culture, but other important hard-to-talk-about topics, like money).
Can I ask what religions you both are? If you don't mind sharing...
The good thing is that you are talking about this now. My heart goes out to you immensely though bc I know this is a huge deal and must be so difficult. Hang in there!
@PinkPinstripes - he's Jewish and I'm Catholic. Not an easy combination.
@fifinella and others: To clarify about why baptize children as infants -
The traditions that are most important to me are for baptized Catholics. Something as simple as crossing yourself, which is done many times during the course of mass, is for people who have been baptized only. If my child isn't baptized, we couldn't even pray together at night, because that involves crossing yourself :(
Also, it is very important for me to have my marriage recognized by my church. We are getting married in a civil ceremony, but the plan was always to have a private religious ceremony at my church within a year. However, the Catholic church requires him to agree to have the children baptized in order to marry us.
I'm just going to throw this out there, but have you considered exploring the Anglican Church? (Similar traditions, values, liturgy, but no infant baptism requirement. Or is your FI against any kind of baptism at all?)
Are either of you actually attending church/temple on anything like a regular basis?
@Interfaith: Do you think you could still take your children with you to church for the experience of the teachings and community without having baptized them or does that not sit well with you?
I know it must be hard, but if you can separate the teachings of Jesus from the rules of the church, it's difficult to imagine that your children would not be welcome...ya know what I mean?
I'm sorry. I think religious differences can be the most difficult to overcome. I don't have an interfaith marriage, but my heart goes out to you.
I'm guessing you might be Catholic? You of course can go to mass if you aren't baptized. No one will kick you out. But there is so much more to the mass. If you just baptize your child and they don't make their other sacraments, they'll miss out on going to communion.
I have seen children go through RCIA and make their communion and confirmation together. (Young kids, pre-teen.) So it's not like they will have to go 20 years before getting baptized.
I can understand your dilemma, though. I for one, would not want my kids to go unbaptized. Also, it sounds like both you and FI are strong in your religions. And it's hard to know how either of you will feel as your children decide on their religions. How will you feel if they choose the other parent's religion? What if none of them choose your own? What if they just don't pick anything? The best case scenario leaves one of you satisifed and the other not. The worst case scenario leaves you both feeling disappointed.
Bless you. Good luck.
I've just started the pre-cana process with my priest (Catholic) and agreeing to baptize and raise your children Catholic is a huge deal.
I completely understand where you're coming from- I can't imagine not having my future kids not baptized.I'm sorry I don't have better advice for you, but keep the communication lines open and good luck!
@Interfaith: Just to clarify about the Catholic marriage- he doesn't have to agree to have the kids baptized. You have to agree to do everything within your power (reasonably) to baptize the kids and raise them Catholic. All the non-Catholic party has to do is acknowledge that you made the promise.
@Jacqi: That's how it worked for an interfaith couple that I know, but I think overall that it still might depend on the flexibility of the priest.
My mother is Catholic and my father is Jewish. My mother took us to church every Sunday and we crossed ourselves, but we were not baptized when we were babies. Never heard of not being able to cross yourself if you aren't baptized. My sister and I were raised with both religions in our life. My parents divorced when I was around 9 and one of the main reasons had to do with my mother wanting us to get baptized and my father not wanting us to get baptized. I now idenfity with Judaism and am actually going to go through a formal conversion (at the age of 26), however, my boyfriend is Catholic, and while neither of us are religious, my paternal grandparents were both Holocaust survivors and I feel it very important to keep the traditions and cultures that they fought so hard to preserve. I intend on learning from my parents' mistakes and truly exposing the children to both. It is a slippery slope, and I think as other posters have mentioned, you have to identify what is really important to you (is making the sign of the cross what's important- or praying together as a family with your husband?) Only you can answer this, obviously- but consider the fact that you have to make this work for the both of you, and that may entail a modification of the two religions in their most basic forms.
Have you thought about the possibility of raising your kids to learn about and explore many religions, not just yours and your fiance's? Make it more about exploring the different faiths that exist and thinking about what faith means to them rather than choosing one side or another? A couple of other people have mentioned waiting until your children are old enough to make their own choice before doing anything to formalize their ties to one religion or another. I would encourage that as well as going further and letting them decide if they want to be Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, Buddhist, something else, or possibly no organized religion at all.
Maybe when they're five they'll want a baptism, and at nine they'll want a bar/bat mitzvah, and at 22 they'll apprentice at a Buddhist temple. Teach them everything you can about all faiths. You can show them what Catholicism means to you and your fiance can expose them to his connection with Judaism, but as part of their own exploration (and most importantly, not as something that is a decision one way or the other).
I can sort of relate... I am not religious at all and my FI is religious although he doesn't attend church regularly. This discussion came up yesterday when he asked me if I would care if he started taking our son to church (we already have a 2 year old son) I told him that would be okay but any type of baptism would be out of the question. We have decided that when our son is old enough he can make his own decision on what he believes in.and in the event that my son wants to be baptized he can decide on his own. I am allowing my FI to take our son to church BC I do want him to be educated on all religions but in the end he will make up his own mind and we will not push him in anyway. Hope this helps and I feel for you! Don't let it be a deal breaker though!
I'm not bound to any faith tradition, and I can't decide if that makes me more or less suited to comment on this issue.
I don't want it to sound like I'm against you on this, because I respect that this is important to you, and I realize we're only getting a brief outline of the overall situation here, but:
"If my child isn't baptized, we couldn't even pray together at night, because that involves crossing yourself :("
This isn't really completely accurate; you could certainly still pray with your child. You just couldn't pray explicitly *Catholic* prayers, which would seem to me to be out of bounds anyway, if you're trying to be respectful of both religious traditions and not privilege Catholicism over Judaism.
It sounds a little from your post and follow-up (and again, I get that we're only getting a brief snippet of a much larger issue here, so forgive me if I'm reading too much into them) like in your mind you were going to raise Catholic children and sort of politely nod to your FI's Jewishness. I'm not saying that is definitely what you're doing, or even that it is intentional if it is.
I would argue that it is *very* difficult, if not impossible, to fully embrace two faiths at the same time, if for no other reason than to fully embrace one faith (esp. in the Christian tradition) means explicitly rejecting others. There are people who manage to balance the *expressions* of two faiths, but in my experience that is tough, and usually means neither is practiced with any fervor.
I understand your FI's objection to baptism, since the structural (and spiritual) purpose of baptism is to seal a covenant and gather into the fold.
On the other hand, if you have male children, would he be willing to not circumcise, since that is part of the Jewish covenant? I see those two things as roughly equivalent...
"The traditions that are most important to me are for baptized Catholics. Something as simple as crossing yourself, which is done many times during the course of mass, is for people who have been baptized only. If my child isn't baptized, we couldn't even pray together at night, because that involves crossing yourself :( "
Is this a biblical thing or just custom?? It's obvious that you are quite religious and strict with your religion. Honestly, I've got nothing for you on that front, I cannot relate at all. As far as your relationship though, I am now fascinated about how you made it this far.
If you plan on raising kids in an interfaith household, while trying to accomodate both religions equally, you may find that there will be a lot of give and take, a lot of compromise, much like the marriage itself. You may have to become more flexible with your faith in order to include your kids, which means figuring out how to have your own relationship with your God, and not just follow what your priest says without question. I'm not here to criticize how you choose to worship, but personally I don't see how you could successfully manage 2 religions while remaining that way and not alienate your kids and husband in the process.
I really wish you the best of luck, but I do think you need to re-evaluate what is more important in your life. also-i second the other bees who recommended counseling.
I'm not religious, but I guess if Mr.D wanted to do it I'd think, "well it's just a priest putting water on a baby". Since I don't believe in the whole thing...
(on a more serious note - I really second J.grossman on this one)
Ok I am trying to figure out how to say this without sounding snarky...
Marriage is all about compromise. From your post it doesn't sound like either of your are willing to budge. In my opinion, if you are considering cancelling the wedding over this you need to either see a counselor and figure this out or call it off until you can come to a decision. If you can't learn to compromise now, you won't magically be able to do it once you say your vows. Just my $0.02.
This is weird, because I'm an atheist (and Jewish) and am kind of totally in your camp on this one.
If my FI wanted to do a baptism - sure why not? It doesn't hurt the child and if you don't believe in it there are no consequences.
So to me its weird that your FI is so against it. Why is he against it?
Because IMO for it to make sense for him to be against it - he'd have to 'believe' in its power.
But admit to not at all understanding how you could plan to raise your children devoutly in both faiths.
Hi, I'm not trying to be snarky either, I just want to understand your situation better. Why didn't you and your FI discuss this before getting engaged? Did it never come up?
I'll stick my toe in the pool here too, because I'm Catholic and I do understand how you feel. However, you might explain to your FI that baptism does not mean a lifetime commitment to being Catholic. There is baptism, there is first communion, and then there is confirmation... that's the big one, and that is when the teen decides.
You can always baptize a child and then leave it alone until they're old enough to decide. It sounds like you're both planning on having your children follow your respective religions, and it could turn out that they won't be religious at all. It's a deeply personal thing.
I hope you don't cancel the wedding. It sounds like you truly love each other, and there are ALWAYS ways to work things out. Does he follow the Jewish religion, or is this more of a cultural thing? Because I know a lot of friends whose parents were in interfaith Catholic/Jewish marriages, and they celebrated Christmas and Hannuka. Please at least speak with a counselor/priest/rabbi, or all three, and don't be too black and white on this issue with each other.
Isn't love the most important part of both of those religions? Just something to think about :) My thoughts and prayers go out to you.
I just have one more thing to add. You stated that you were going to do a civil ceremony. If neither of you are willing to compromise on this, I don't see you getting married later on in your church. You have also stated that neither of you have a regular church that you are attending, so I don't understand why you are both so adamant about this. I would have thought that all of this would have been discussed and hashed out long ago.
Thank you all so much for the replies.
I don't think it's snarky to ask "why didn't you figure this out earlier?" We have discussed this topic SO MUCH. Our first conversation about it was the day after we started dating. We are both pretty flexible in religious beliefs; what matters are the family traditions. We agreed to celebrate all the holidays and do all the traditions. We didn't realize the baptism would be such a sticking point. Then, the other day I mentioned something about godparents, and he was like "Wait a minute, there won't be any godparents!" And all of this started.
While it may seem like we're both fundamentalists or something, we're really not. Compromise has been so easy for us thus far - he goes to church with my family, I go to temple with him, we celebrate all the holidays, etc. We both thought that things would work out naturally.
For those who have recommended counseling - any recommendations for how to find someone to talk to? Are you supposed to Google "marriage counselor" and just start calling people up? I'm afraid that traditional counselors would focus more on general relationship skills vs. our specific problem. In any case, we are willing to explore this route, just not sure how to find someone.
And for those who point out that we shouldn't get married if we can't figure this out. We know; that's why we're having this conversation rather than putting it off until we're actually married and having kids.
I would talk to your rabbi and priest. Our "renewal" rabbis are very cool and they understand FI is not Jewish. I think they'd still respect us if we said we wanted to raise our kids in two different traditions. There are a lot of interfaith couples at our synagogue too. My grandfather was a rabbi (reform) and did a lot of weddings together with a priest - obviously those couples wanted elements of both traditions and religions, and it was okay with both officiants. I don't think a regular counselor would help on this one. Maybe a rabbi wouldn't have a problem with baptism and could help FI understand that. You just have to find the right rabbi that's good to talk to. Do you know that your children will not be considered Jewish without going through a mikvah and conversion ceremony? Does FI know that? It's something else to consider.
@Interfaith: try http://www.therapistlocator.net/ for a marriage and famiy therapist or ask friends/family for recommendations. if you have a university near you, call their counseling center and ask for a recommendation - they always have a ist of local therapists they refer out to. you can also search on psychology today website. call a few people and talk to them and tell them your situation and if they think they can help. if they can't, they almost always can refer you to another therapist who can.
i am a therapist - you work with what the couple brings you. clearly you need to work this specific issue out, so as long as you make that clear to your counselor, that shouldn't be an issue. although it is likely that this issue and the way you have communicated about it probably might be related to other concerns (i.e. losing your identiy, connection with your family etc. who knows). and remember that "successful" couples therapy doesn't mean that the couple always ends up staying together.
@Interfaith- I am Catholic, FI is Jewish, so I can totally appreciate where you're coming from. Fortunately, FI and talked about this early on and agreed to have our future offspring baptized and raised primarily Catholic, but exposed to both. The reason for this is that I am the more religious of the two of us. I would actually have no problem with my kids being raised Jewish, but since FI is not willing to be responsible for making sure that happens, then I as their Catholic mother am going to raise them Catholic.
@ Arachna- her FI doesn't have to believe in the baptism to be against it. A baptism is more than splashing some holy water on a baby and saying some prayers. It is a sacrament, the first of many that a Catholic child will receive. Baptism is the child's induction into being Catholic, where he or she is made members of Christ and the church. I imagine that is why her FI is having issues with it. I could be wrong, but that's just my guess.
ETA: I agree with Arachna that I don't understand how it will be possible to raise a child devoutly in both faiths.
I dont have much advice I am just going to say that I understand why your FI does not want your children baptized even if his reasoning is different than my own.
I wasnt raised Catholic (I was raised and baptized Methodist) but if I married someone who was Catholic I would not want my child to be baptized. It is the symbolism of it. It is sort of like saying "now you are catholic" and I just wouldnt feel comfortable with that since I dont agree with many teachings of the Catholic church nor do I believe in the religion itself.
I hope you are able to work this out! It sucks that something so silly as religion can separate people like this. If you love each other you will make it work and work hard at it!!
I can come at this from a different perspective. My Mom is Catholic, my father was Greek Orthodox. My Grandmother on my Mom's side is Methodist, and my Grandmother on my Father's side was Jewish!
My parents did not know what to do with me, so they did nothing. They let me learn about all religions, I went to church because I wanted to go (I think I was about 8 or 9 and used to walk myself every Sunday), and never pressured me into believing in what they did, just because they were raised that that is the way that works.
Today we are subject to so much "political correctness", that I feel society takes things too far. We are no longer allowed to celebrate Christmas, it's supposed to be "Happy Holidays", and no trees in schools or Santa at the town hall. We can't let our kids wear Halloween costumes to school and share candy, because it is against someone's faith. So, my question is, why oh why are we not teaching our children about other religions? About other faiths, and teach them to embrace the differences in us all, and the freedom we have to choose? In my opinion, we should teach tolerance and undertanding of others' religions and cultures, instead of hatred and fear. And in my opinion, it is fear- fear if our children learn about something different, they may be drawn to it, after we have pretty much "brainwashed" them into thinking our way is the only/right way. I say brainwashed because most people force their religious beliefs onto their children, as much as they don't mean to force, that is pretty much what we d by insisting beliefs onto human beings.
So, you may think I'm digressing, but I am not. Instead of "forcing" your beliefs, or his beliefs, on your child ( if you have them..there is no guarantee that you will), why not teach them both religions? Why are ceremony steps more important to you than teaching your beliefs, and letting your child learn about his? It's unfortunate that this has come up, because the two faiths are so opposite (one believing in Christ as Savior, the other not so much), that there really is no way, and no ceremony, and no Godparent, that will ever clarify anything for your child(ren). Teach them both faiths, and by doing so, teach them tolerance, understanding, and decision making skills. In doing so, you will raise stronger, more caring, leaders. Have Christmas, have Passover...teach them. Isn't that what parenting is supposed to be?
Knowledge is power.
Monkeygirl,
But that's the thing, it's not a sacrament to me, its just some water. Its pure symbolism. I understand and respect that for you and others its a sacrament but I don't see how someone not Catholic could see it that way. Plenty of people baptised end up not Catholic. *shrug*
I am puzzeled how two people who are both non rigid and laid back about their beliefs both invest so much meaning in this ritual.
And how can anyone object to Godparents? Eh, everyone is different. I hope the OP works it out!
I don't think marrying without this worked out would be the worst thing ever either - people change their minds about this stuff over the years, so it might go away on its own or vice versa you can work it out now and run into problems later.
I understand that you both agreed to raise your kids following the traditions of both faiths. Baptism is much more than just a tradition and I think you realize that. However, lots of people end up in the catholic church and convert later.
I agree that it does sound like you are more interested in a full catholic experience for your children. You can pray with a child and teach them about church and the sacraments without baptising them. I think another big hurdle would be the bar/bat miztva and a confirmation. At that time the child is old enough to make their own decision but at that point it sets out the religion.
My parents were married by a catholic priest. They were not willing to sign saying they will baptise their children in the catholic churhc. They said they would go where they felt the most "community" of a church. Their priest was fine with that.
@Interfaith: For such a personal topic I agree that you and your FI need to work to some sort of resolution whether it be a compromise of some sort, or realizing that the two of you may not be equipped to work out your differences. In my opinion, the two best ideas:
1. Couples counseling (as many bees have said) This issue you are having may not be the only one that comes up throught your lifetime and marriage, so it may be good to work out a way for the two of you to deal with seemingly unresolvable conflicts. When you find a therapist, you can usually do a quick phone interview and let the person know what your issue is and find out if they have any experience specifically with interfaith couples.
2. As some have mentioned, You, your husband or both together, can personally talk to both a rabbi and a priest regarding their views on this issue. That may either clear up the issue or at least give you two concrete discussion points for this issue.
Good luck!
"The traditions that are most important to me are for baptized Catholics. Something as simple as crossing yourself, which is done many times during the course of mass, is for people who have been baptized only. If my child isn't baptized, we couldn't even pray together at night, because that involves crossing yourself."
Anyone can say the sign of the cross, even the non-baptized. It's a prayer and prayers are not restricted to Catholics. Non-baptized persons wouldn't necessarily receive the full grace associated with the act, but it doesn't hurt. The same with using a sacramental (like holy water). The real problem with a lack of baptism is the baby will live with original sin.
"However, the Catholic church requires him to agree to have the children baptized in order to marry us."
No, they do not. He does not have to agree to anything to be married in a Catholic church. You must agree to raise your children as best you can in the Catholic faith. Also, I wouldn't wait to have your marriage convalidated (you realize that you can't take communion between the marriage and convalidation, right?) Instead, contact a priest to talk about obtaining a Dispensation so that the jewish marriage is valid legally, in the Catholic Church, and in the Jewish faith.
My heart goes out to you. I knew I would never marry someone not Catholic, but spent over two years trying to get my ex to convert. Dumb, I know. I agree with a PP that you can still go to Mass and pray if you aren't baptized. In fact, one of my friends who went to church every Sunday did RCIA a few years ago- her father didn't want her to be baptized, but she went to Church, and prayed, just didn't receive communion.
@Arachna, I totally hear you. I get that it has no meaning to you- I wasn't trying to imply that it should. I was just trying to say that maybe Interfaith's FI realizes exactly WHAT a baptism symbolizes, what it means/how serious it is, and maybe that's why he's not comfortable with it. You definitely don't have to be Christian to understand what it is and what it represents. That would be like me saying I don't get what Yom Kippur is because I'm not Jewish.
In this day and age, with the prevalence of interfaith marriages growing, it deeply saddens me that there are no resources for interfaith couples to work through and resolve some of these tough issues. I definitely don't have it all figured out, and I would be lying to say I never worry about having my kids be confused, or resentful, etc.
Interfaith, my heart goes out to you. It's a tough situation. I really hope you and your FI can work it out.
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