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Encouraging a male child to pursue endless opportunities, and attempting to limit the female children (directly or through years of manipulation) to the role of homemaker is misogynistic behavior. Here is a direct quote from Mr. Duggar:
"As far as my children, my goal, especially for my sons is to be able to develop skills so they can hopefully provide for their families in the future. I also want my daughters to develop skills so they can provide if they had to. Some of my daughters may get nursing degrees."
It is not judgmental to point out inequality. Those little girls do not have a choice, they are indoctinated. Same with arranged marriage, I can be judgmental on other cultures that disallow women their rights. Even if I haven't personally eperienced life in that culture.
The Quiverfull movement is based on the fundamental belief that a woman's place is in the home, and her job is to make babies. Her life is dictated by the choices of her husband, after this authority has been passed to him by her father. This is archaic and bizarre.
so here goes my comment and i know i will get a lot of heat but after reading so much snakiness in this post i think i will go for it.
if you dont like the family and the tv show then dont watch it!! i think than family is far more loving and better than my family. it sucks when you have people criticizing other family because they are different. this kids behave better than any kid i had ever seen (and im a teacher, i had seen a lot of kids). so what she have so many kids??? the dont live from the goverment. they have the money and time to support the family. this is not the only family like this in us and i think they have better values than 60% of the families in us. so i said it again IF IS AWKWARD, WEIRD, STRANGE AND YOU DONT LIKE IT... THEN DONT WATCH IT!!! :)
Magenta,
Most of us don't watch their show, we are responding to a post that asked us what we thought about their family.
No one here has called the Duggers names or terrible people. So I'm not sure what is wrong with politely posting about what we think of the family and their philosophy.
I might just as well say, if you don't want to hear posts criticising the Duggers DON'T READ POSTS THAT OPENLY DISCUSS THE DUGGERS. Except maybe on Christian sites. ;)
For what it's worth, when I see crude and cruel posts about Michelle Dugger and how many kids she has had I too disapprove of those posts, they are mean spirited.
@magenta - i agree. just because they're different doesn't mean they're wrong.
i find it surprising actually, that in a society where we're taught to be inclusive of others, and that we shouldn't judge beliefs just because they're not our own, people are being so judgemental of the duggars because of their religious, relationship, and modesty choices. and i know other families that have like, 3 kids and name them all with the same letter - i don't get it, but i don't see how that would even be relevant to this.
i get it if you wouldn't do it this way. i get it if you're not religious, or if you wouldn't homeschool your children, or if you would encourage them to get out in the world and date before they settle down. that doesn't make what they're doing wrong.
just because they choose something different from mainstream society, that doesn't make them wrong.
it's called personal preference. everyone prefers different things, and you can't argue personal preference, because it's what makes us who we are as a greater society of people.
maybe just being canadian has me proud of multiculturalism. i don't know, but i would never say anything judgemental about an Islamic family who prays 5 times a day, or an Orthodox Jewish family that's kosher. i mean, if we were to say something about them, that would probably be considered racism.
honestly, if we were all the same, where would that get us?
I looked at the Josh and Anna website, and it appears that she did go to college and graduate with a B.A. In addition, she works with her husband outside the home. Perhaps she will be a good influence on the all the Duggar girls that they can pursue college and careers if that is what they want.
@ GirlWithARing Dude seriously, Jesus Camp is the scariest movie I have seen. It's a documentary about a born again christian camp that evangelical parents send their kids to. Scenes include an eight-year-old boy homeschooled by his mother to believe that evolution is a fabrication made up by the liberal media and another young girl sobbing hysterically because "sometimes I dance for myself instead of dancing for Jesus Christ, I know it's a sin to dance for anyone but the Lord but I just love dancing". Then there was the part where small children were guilted into confessing their many sins all while uncontrollably crying.
*shudder*
I totally agree that there are some cases in which homeschooling is a far superior choice to the community schooling options; for example, if my kids were in this school district I'd be homeschooling them (or moving) in a heartbeat:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-app_n_497440.html
I do judge the Duggars, I think it's hypocritical for me to say I don't, but I don't think it's my place to interfere with their lifestyle or the way they raise their kids. Just keep them the hell away from my daughters!
Anna Duggar has a B.A. in Christian Education and works for her husband's business, not exactly Marie Curie.
@ Arachna right on
My Fiance just proclaimed that a wedding website may not be the best forum for my feminist views. I would like to believe in the duality of the female, i.e., I can love heels and fascinators in addition to equality for women.
Also I'm a little confused by the use of the word "wrong" and preference.
While I'm 100% down with not being rude to people or mean, when we talk about morality and values how is it possible to get away from concepts of right or wrong?
I would never live by the values the Duggers believe in because I think those values are wrong. Obviously if I believed those values are right I'd be living like them! I don't claim that I own the objective truth but I do think some things are right or wrong. This is because I have an ethical code. How can anyone that believes in any kind of morality not have an opinion on right or wrong? I don't express that opinion in rude ways but of course I have it.
It's not like a color preference. Whether to pray standing or on your knees might be a preference, whether it is right to worship a spiritual being is not a preference, whether sex outside of marriage is wrong or not is not a preference it is an opinion on wrong and right. You might have a preference on what you would rather do yourself but you also have an opinion of whether such a thing is wrong or right or you're not sure.
Saying that I think they are wrong in what they are teaching their children is not judgmental, it is simple truth. They think my parents were wrong in what they taught me and what I will teach my children. They think we are so wrong that they children shouldn't have contact with ours.
Saying they are terrible nasty people is judgmental - and wrong.
We live in society that is (generally) governed with tolerance. With tolerance comes other belief systems. Other belief systems have their own view of "right and wrong," although there are universals (ex. don't steal from others). I think every person has the right to belief whatever they wish to be true for them, but it is very difficult to tell others that they must believe that only your way is right. I know that some religions teach otherwise (I grew up in a church that taught that there was only one right), but I think you can only apply that to yourself, you can't force it on others.
What a heavy topic for tonight :-)
@ peanutlovespumpkin 100% yes.
Ok, let's get one thing straight: I am not against multiculturalism, or religious freedom, or personal preference, I am against the inequality females are subjected to in the Duggar home and in the Quiverfull movement.
We do have a right to judge, question, and even criticize differences in people when we believe them to be harmful to other human beings. What about racism? That is deeply ingrained in some persons’ beliefs, and I will be damned if I am not going to object to racism when I see it. When I see blatant racism, I don’t think, “I’m going to be nonjudgmental and just respect their beliefs as a racist.” Hell no, I am going to speak up.
@peanutlovespumpkin: I have heard that because Texas is so large, they dominate a lot of the textbook orders for schools so other school districts might end up having to adopt those new textbooks if the orders are large enough because it will cost them much more to order against the grain.
EvaBoston,
I agree 100%. It's one of the reasons I don't like the Duggers - I think they are saying you have to believe the same as them. I do not try to nor wish to make the Duggers believe the same as me.
I do wish their kids had the opportunity to have more varied believes but I'm not advocating force or shame or any other punitive approach.
Because I believe certain things are right and wrong doesn't mean I try to force them on other people.
However while it is possible to believe both that having sex before marriage is right and that not having sex before marriage is right = my belief. It is not possible to believe that having sex before marriage is right and having sex before marriage is wrong. Not possible. So if the Duggers believe the later and I believe the former no one can believe that both of us are right - that is simply incoherent. However people can believe that both of us have the right to make our own choices and have our own beliefs.
@MissAsB: You're kidding!! Guess I might have to look into homeschooling after all, lol ...
@MissAsB - isn't that disgusting? I can't believe they passed those reforms, they're ridiculous.
@lilyfaith: I know! I can't believe that they can just change history so that it is more 'conservative'. And the stuff about them cutting out the part of the Constitution that says the Gov't can't force us to believe one religion is complete crap!
There was so much that just left my jaw dropped. I mean, they're cutting very important people out of history, in favor of adding in people like Jerry Falwell... I'm sorry but how is Jerry Falwell more relevant to America than Thomas Jefferson and Teddy Kennedy? They are literally changing history to suit them. It's crazy to me. I know this is off-topic, but it's so sad!
They're also putting stickers on Biology textbook warning about "offensive content" because they cover evolution.
Man, I'm late to this party.
I think it's important to point out, though, that we can't actually live together in a functional society without passing judgment on each other's conduct to a certain extent. The Duggars do not live in a bubble that has nothing to do with me. We both have the opportunity to vote for the same government. We all participate in the larger community that makes up the nation. And that coexistance only works because we agree to a certain social contract. In my view, that social contract should include an agreement that women and men are of equal value and deserve equal opportunities. If there are people in America who don't believe that, and whose participation in the public sphere reflects their belief, it affects me through the politicians that get elected and the legislation that gets passed. I think, therefore, that it is not only acceptable but important for me to speak up about beliefs and practices that (in my view) may have negative effects on MY rights as a woman and a citizen. The Duggars can have as many children as they want, but I do not think that politeness requires that I pretend it is acceptable to hold the view that men are superior to, or should act as authorities over, women. That is the view that supported thousands of years of women's lack of civil and political rights in Western culture, and frankly I think it is dangerous to our democracy.
historienne, you said exactly what I was thinking as I watched this thread but didn't step in aside from one short paragraph a few pages ago. Thanks for saying it! That the Duggars exist, are raising a large number of children who seem to be growing up and keeping these values, and are being promoted to the entire country as a family with wholesome and wholly respectable values doesn't just affect those who watch the show! That's why I believe people have every right to speak up and point out what they find objectionable about the Duggars' lifestyle and the values behind it.
I know this may be off topic but maybe not. The Duggars did an episode where they reversed roles and had the boys do the laundry and cook, and the girls went out to the properties and worked and learned how to change a tire. They do try to teach both their boys and girls the lessons they will need in life.
Also, my guess would be that the Duggars probably chose to go on that show in order to show some people that families with these lifestyles exist. They are spreading their beliefs and sharing how they live through that tv show. If I had that opportunity to share something I truly believed in, then I would too in a heartbeat. I think they have accomplished their mission because even here on the boards many have learned about birth control choices, home school decisions, etc that they may not have been exposed to.
Here is a link that describes the quiver full movement and what it's all about from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull
What I found most interesting was that the earliest writings in support of the movement were from women.
I'd imagine with the money they gain from being on TLC, they could probably set aside some dough to send ALL their brood to college. To learn skills besides, um, nursing. Also--pretty sure you have to take organic chemistry, biology, and GASP, other science courses to get a nursing degree.
Then again, maybe they donate it all to the church or something?
I am appalled at the recent textbook news out of Texas. My husband and I plan on moving away from this area of the country to raise children because we want them to get a good, well rounded education. The fact that these textbooks will be distributed nationwide is disturbing! I may get k-12 twice if I have to preview every book from my kids' classrooms, haha. Homeschooling looks better and better ;)
PS: big ups to peanutlovespumpkin, kingcake, historienne, Arachna, and GirlWithARing for better articulating what I'm thinking over here. Historienne - they're producing a lot of voters!
The Texas textbook situation also scares and appalls me. I don’t think enough people are paying attention to this situation and understand how serious it is.
And I’m seconding Melissa’s big ups to peanutlovespumpkin, kingcake, historienne, Arachna, and GirlWithARing!!!! :)
The vote will take place in May. Can somebody tell me what needs to be taught about the NRA and why the New Deal isn't important? And what I really don't understand is why anything having to do with Christianity or any other religion should ever be taught in a public school??? Isn't that what religious schools and churches are for? This really, really scares me.
personally how they raise their daughter is appalling to me. they are "Trained" to be wifes/mothers with no educational backround/jobs after high school. thats ridicooulous and being a female, offends me very much so. i feel bad that these girls cant have dreams other then babies and marrage. ive seen some of the shows where they mentioned that they want to be midwives.... (personally think that still ties in with the whole baby/marriage thing). Yes, we are judging them but there on TV and it comes with the terriotry. i've watched other episodes and they(the duggars) judge people all the time about THIER lifestyles.... really they do if you watch it. that being siad, the show is entertaining and i appluad them for being great people who arent afraid to be diffent and stand up for what they believe in. However, they should not in any way be considered "better" tehn other people becuase oof thier beliefs. ppeople need to remain openminded- that includs the duggars.
If we're going to talk about the Duggars not educating their children properly, can we at least make sure our own posts are free from major spelling and grammatical infringements? Otherwise...point negated 
I think we need another post about this textbook thing going on. I'm sort of out of the loop and heard about it from, of all places, the Colbert Report and thought it was a big fat joke! It makes me sick to think about it being real, though.
ejs4y8: You really need to take a good, hard look at your own posts before thrusting suggestions upon others regarding editing for grammatical errors. ;)
I have not been critical of the suggestion of nursing for the Duggar girls, and will not if someone can convince me that they have been shown all of their options. However, it sounds very similar to the stories my mother tells me of being told repeatedly (in the 1950's) that her only career choices were 1. Nurse and 2. Teacher. If you notice, Mr. Duggar does not say some of his girls are going to become nurses, he says they might go to nursing school. The devil is in the details. If they are so interested in medicine, why not MDs? It is not a coincidence that the profession he suggests for the female children has typically been assigned to a specific gender throughout history.
If i ever make grammatical and spelling errors in the same sentence I discuss the lack of education of others, please feel free to point them out.
Save my uncapitalize "i" that is =]
@kingcake- I don't think they are suggesting the boys go to med school either. I think they are more interested in learning trades. I read an interview where they said the girls are most interested in becoming wives and mothers, so it would make sense that they want to become nurses or teachers (very nurturing professions); but some also want to get a real estate lisence or commercial driver's license to drive their big machinery.
I don't think the oldest son went to college, but I could be wrong.
Holy thread explosion.
Perhaps we've moved on,but I wanted to point out that misogyny, chauvanism and sexism are not equivalent terms, and there is something to be said for judicious application - particularly where misogyny is concerned.
Misogyny is the hatred of women qua women. That is, the loathing of a woman for no other reason save the fact of her womanhood.
Chauvanism is unreasonable partisanship - jingoism is one example. It can also be used to describe the belief that one gender or sex is superior to another. Larry Summers' comment that women are not naturally well-suited to be scientists was chauvanistic.
Sexism is the belief that each sex or gender has a particular role to play in society, usually accompanied by the feeling that deviation from these assigned positions is unnatural or unhealthy.
Are the Duggar family values sexist? Certainly. Are they chauvanistic? I'd say so. Chauvanism and sexism have a relationship not unlike squares and rectangles - All chauvanism is sexist, but not all sexism is chauvanistic. Are they misogynistic? That's a bit much. There is very little to suggest in the lives these women lead that their brothers, husbands, and uncles actively despise them on the basis of their femaleness.
The reflexive labeling of anything harmful to women as misogynistic has a way of clouding one's judgement and, in my experience, leads to the unnecessary alienation of those who might otherwise be persuaded to reconsider their views. It also makes actual misogyny much harder to see.
Ya know I've read through most of these posts and I'm actually shocked at the little knowledge there is on the Christian Marriage. In a true Christian marriage the man IS the head of the house. Does that mean that a Christian Marriage is less of a partnership then a modern marriage? No. The christian husband is supposed to be the protector and leader of the family. My fiance and I have talked to our pastor and his daughter-in-law about the leadership rolse of a husband/wife or man/woman. This doesn't mean that you are beneath your husband. God mad woman from man's rib to stand beside him not from his feet to be walked on. Frankly while the Duggars are not the way I want to live my life, they have the right set of mind because they're raising responsible adults with morals. Raising kids with morals is somthing that I see less and less of the older i get (and I'm only 21!), it has come to my attention that the majority of the people that I graduated high school with are doing rather immoral things.
Also I wanted to point out that it's just the Catholics and Mormons(depending on the sect) who feel like women and men are meant to reproduce as much as possible. Baptists and Methodists don't believe in that manner. The Baptist's typically see birth control as being "ok" because if God wanted a baby to be concieved it's going to be concieved regardless of any condom, spermicide or pill that the couple is using.
MrsJellybean, I think you're right on about how the man can be the head of the household, but the two parties are still viewed as equals. My FI is my protector, and there are many times I refer to his better judgement (he's much more level-headed than I am) - but he always treats me with respect, dignity, and as a partner.
I'd just like to clear up one thing though. The Catholic Church is against birth control, which I think is what you're referring to wrt. them reproucing as much as possible. This is done to highlight the fact that in a marriage the couple must be open to new life. Catholic couples are not pressure into having as many kids as possible, but rather persuaded into not using abortifacients. The Church's stance on natural family planning proves this point - if men and women were meant to reproduce as much as possible, even NFP (or abstinance) would be deemed 'wrong'.
The perception of Catholics being "meant to reproduce as much as possible" is nothing more than a society judgment and stigma. Just like saying "Irish means Catholic" (hello protestant/catholic divide), or Catholics like to drink. While yes, Many catholics... an non-Catholics like to drink it's not a requirement of tenant of the faith, just like Children.
Catholics are asked to be open to life. The issues with Birth Control go beyond "Family planning" which is why NFP is acceptable. This isn't the time or place for a BC debate, but it's stance against BC goes back to BIBLICAL teaching (which is one reason I find it odd sola scriptura Christians practice it) as well as the physical barriers and chemical reactions and ends of BC. It's not just because they want us to reproduce as much as possible....
Besides, the Duggars aren't Catholic or Mormon, and they have pretty much everyone beat with 19 naturally born children.
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