So, I had an epiphany in the shower this morning. To start with, I am looking for the best of the Bees. Most of the people I know are liberal, and I really am seeking to understand the other side. The side that believes, I think, that I should die rather than to resolve a pregnancy that won’t continue to stay viable, but right now is.
I found out yesterday that there is a highly significant chance that my pregnancy is ectopic. Not in the fallopian tube, but attached to the outside of the uterus. Or attached on the inside, but partially protruding through to the outside of the uterus. One Dr thought that there might be TWO embryos, one inside and one outside. They’ll know more in the next week.
My Dr is doing a repeat HCG on Sunday, followed by an US on Monday morning. She did say that she would do nothing until she confirmed placement, which given that I am only 5w5d may take another week or two. And also that there is a very small chance everything would be ok, but she wasn’t optimistic at all.
However, by 8 weeks I am at risk for uterine rupture.
If my HGC is 5000 or under I would be a candidate for Methotrexate, which is basically low dose chemotherapy. If my HGC is over 5000 Methotrexate is not an option and I would require surgery. In either case, it would end the pregnancy.
So, back to the shower this morning. I realized that I now sit squarely in the middle of the "in order to save the life of the mother" debate.
Under the stance of no abortion EVER, under any case, even to save the life of the mother……. If I use Methotrexate, isn’t that technically an “abortion”? Meaning that at this very moment there is an embryo and all the ‘parts’ and right now it’s still growing and progressing, just like it would if it were in-utero.
If I do nothing, my uterus will eventually rupture. At that point the baby would be die…. But potentially so would I. Plus, at that point I would require major surgery and I would probably lose my uterus. There have been like 4 or 5 cases in the history of the world where a uterine-ectopic pregnancy resolved back into the uterus and went on to be a viable pregnancy. Is that enough of a chance that I should be waiting and hoping for that? From an anti-abortion stance, is the “right thing to do” to wait and see what happens? Risk uterine rupture and hope and pray that, against all odds, it resolves itself, because abortion, for any reason, is murder? Even if there are only 4 or 5 cases ever reported?
I think when I thought about it that way….. that this would be a case where to save my life, I have to end this pregnancy…. It became a very personal to me… in a way that it hasn’t before, because I’ve never really been faced with this type of situation before.
First of all, I'm sorry you are having to go through all of this! Thank you though for sharing your story, I feel like a lot of people don't look at this issue in that way and could use a wake up call.
First of all, I'm so sorry for your situation. I can't even imagine what you're going through right now.
I went to Catholic high school and was required to take a theology class every semester of every year through graduation. In my unit on birth control, we discussed this exact sort of situation. According to the priest who taught the class, in this situation, the proper thing to do would be surgery right now. In this surgery, you would not actually kill the fetus; you would just remove it. Then, all doctors and nurses would solemnly watch over the baby as it naturally died (because it no longer had your body to support it). If you were Catholic, you would have a priest there so he could baptize the baby immediately before it died.
I think the Catholic church is about as pro-life as you get, and even they would be in favor of getting that baby out of you before it does any lasting damage.
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but why are you doing this to yourself? You're already in a terrible predicament I wouldn't wish upon anyone. Why are you asking bees who disagree to potentially judge and insult you?
@GreenEyedMoon: In this surgery, you would not actually kill the fetus; you would just remove it.
So I totally understand you are just repeating the Catholic Church's standpoint, but isn't that really just splitting hairs? Isn't cutting off someone's oxygen supply killing them?
It isn't that I want to be insulted. I really want to understand the thought process that someone would have, now that it is personal to me, who would actually say it's better for me to die than to terminate this pregnancy in a safe way. I actually really would like to understand that thought process.
@Natalieh86: According to the church, there's a difference. If someone cannot live on their own without extraordinary means and is not expected to get better (in this example, the baby needs extraordinary means because the mom's body is basically a life support system. The baby isn't expected to get better because the pregnancy isn't viable. The statement also applies to other situations, like if someone is braindead and in a coma after a car accident, and the doctors say there's no way they'll recover, and the person is on life support), then it's okay to remove their life support system. That way, you've done everything you can to try and save the life, and you're simply removing the extraordinary measures keeping them alive. In the car accident example, you would remove the life support system and allow the person to suffocate or starve or whatever - not inject them with a heart-stopping drug.
Splitting hairs, yes, but the Church says it's an important difference.
OP, I don't think anyone in the world could possibly criticize you for deciding to terminate the pregnancy. The only criticism you could possibly garner from anyone, in my opinion, is for how you do it. That being said, I personally don't care how you do. You're in an impossible situation, and all I want to do is give you a hug.
@3xaCharm: No matter the outcome, I wish you a speedy recovery, and peace as you go through this rough patch. I hope the bees have the decency to stay respectful and realize you are a person facing a horrible scenario no one can possibly understand until standing in those shoes. I can't explain the mentality to you, because I don't understand it myself, but I hope understanding it helps you in the way you need, and I hope your story brings tolerance and consideration from the other side.
To my understanding greeneyedmoon is correct about Church teaching. Ectopic pregnancies are the only time it is morally acceptable to deliberately end a pregnancy. Intention matters here. In this case, it is not your intention to end the life of the baby (though it is a foreseeable consequence). It is your intention to use medical intervention to treat a situation that is life threatening to both you and the baby. Unfortunately, the only treatment available will almost certainly have the unintentional but foreseeable consequence of the baby's death.
@3xaCharm: I can't respond because I'm scary ridiculously prochoice, I just wanted to send my love your way that I am so sorry about everything you are going through. Hugs.
to everyone else, she's asking for a calm debate, please don't attack her.
@GreenEyedMoon: Thanks for the explanation.
I feel like the issue with the "mother's life" exception isn't that most people don't agree with it. I would be interested in the numbers but I would imagine that a pretty low number of people would actually agree that you should not be able to terminate the pregnancy.
I think that main issue is that so many people don't realize the importance of protecting this right.
In my catholic pre-marital classes they touched on these type of situations. Sometimes you are best off going with the science. Jesus would not want you to suffer when there is science there to help you.
I'm very sorry you are struggling with this. I wish you the best and hope your heart is not heavy with any guilt because you are doing what is best for you. Remember Jesus loves you and understands.
A lot of fertilized eggs get lost around this point. I don't see the purpose in trying to take this to term as you'll very likely lose the embryo at some point down the road. For me that would be worse: letting the recently fertilized egg to actually grow considerably, potentially becoming a grown fetus, without proper conditions or nourishment and risk to both of your lives. I think restarting is much more humane.
I don't know how this feels from experience but my mother does and I really empathize with what you're going through. She tried to bring a pregnancy to term too late in life (no risk to her physical health though) and it all fell apart around the 4th month. I think the pregnancy ending at the 4th month was much harder than if it had failed early on.
I am so sorry for your loss.
I am poltiically pro-choice, but FI and I grew up in very pro-life households and are parents are as pro-life as you get. In general, they would say to take the chemo to treat you, and a side effect would be that you would miscarry the child. You aren't trying to kill the child or end the pregnancy, you are saving your life. It would be reckless for you not to save your life because taking no action could kill you and your child.
I was intrigued by this question, so I started doing some reading on the Internet. I found several Christian non-Catholic viewpoints arguing against abortion for ectopic pregnancy. Their main argument is that abortion is always murder and is against God's law. They also justify this by reporting some (IMO misleading) statistics saying that tubal rupture is not that common and not that lethal when it happens. They also argue that tubal pregnancies can sometimes become viable (there a small number of reported cases), so abortion isn't justified as the fetus could survive even though the odds are small.
You can see these links for their full arguements
http://rightremedy.org/tracts/9
http://inashoe.com/2008/06/ectopic-pregnancy-and-the-sanctity-of-life/
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/christian-leader-rejects-abortion-to-save-a-womans-life-cms-12978
The official position of the Association of Pro-life physicians is "It is only ethical to remove the tubal pregnancy if spontaneous resolution does not occur after watchful waiting and if the physician is 100% certain that there are no twins. At this point, the embryo in the fallopian tube is likely to be dead and, even if not, the death is unavoidable and unintentional, and the procedure is necessary to save the life of the mother." http://www.prolifephysicians.org/rarecases.htm
ETA: These are not my personal views. I'm sorry you find yourself in this difficult situation. I hope you can find peace to make the best decision for yourself and your family. I really hope that you don't have any negative health impacts.
As someone as pro-life as you can get, I have to reiterate the position of the Catholic Church as outlined by GreenEyedMoon:
I believe all life is to revered at all cost and no one can fault you for doing the safest possible stuation at this point. Like GreenEyedMoon say you're situation is such an unfortunate situation and all I want to do is hug you.
Wishing you all the peace and healing in moving forward.
@3xaCharm: I'm so sorry you are going through this. I'm pro-choice but grew up extremely pro-life. Talk with your doctor extensively as well as your husband. You deserve all the support in the world right now. Do what is best for you. Don't be hard on yourself. I feel if it came down to it, I would pick the surgery over praying and waiting and hoping things turned out well. I know my husband would also fully support me in this and he is extremely pro-life. Take care of yourself first and foremost. I honestly believe from a religious position that God won't judge you for saving your life when there was little chance of saving the baby. Just my 2 cents but that's what I honestly believe.
No matter what you choose, we're here for you! big hugs and keep us updated! :(
3Xacharm good luck with everything. I think it is brave to put your story out there even as you are going through such a tough time.
I think the bees are really respectful and I don't think anyone will harrass you. In fact, I find the most stridently anti exception people tend to be people who just don't believe a situation like yours ever occurs. That is part of why I think that posting your story is helpful.
Btw I just wanted to point out how we all used "pro-choice/pro-life" 
I just realized how silly the terms are that we're using right now. Almost here is talking about the choice of pregnancy termination in an extreme health risk to the mother case.
Basically what I'm hearing is that everyone is "pro-life" (not in the political sense) meaning they want 3xaCharm, embryo, or both to be healthy and well. And that almost everyone is "pro-choice" in that they want Charm to be able to decide whether she wants to sacrifice her life for a firtilized egg which most likely will never come to term.
Just saying. We've (some, not all) been using "pro-choice" interchangibly with "pro-abortion" and "pro-life" with "against-abortion". Personally I feel very pro-life and pro-choice about this topic. I value Charm's life above the embryo's, but who the hell am I to tell her what to do, I want her to be able to make her own decision.
Sorry if that was long and confusing. I just sorta scratched my head when women were saying, "I'm pro-life but I would support your option to terminate the pregnancy." I sorta thought, "Isn't everyone pro-life? Isn't it just which situations we think people should be able to choose for themselves?"
@PlumeriaSplash: I just sorta scratched my head when women were saying, "I'm pro-life but I would support your option to terminate the pregnancy."
To clarify,the OP asked as someone from a liberal perspective, to understand the opinions of those on the other side. Thus for full disclosure I stated my political stance just to put things in perspective. I don't think anyone here is seeking an argument as to semantics of the terms. Certainly given the OP's unfortunate circimstance, this isn't the platform for it.
@PlumeriaSplash: I get what you're saying. It's kind of weird when we think about those terms and what they really mean, especially in this situation!
@picturemeurs: I don't think she's trying to start an argument, I think her posts were just...musings about the terms. We may have different opinions on some issues, but we value a lot of the same things...and in this case, the terms are almost interchangeable. Does that make sense?
To the OP...hugs! This is so hard. I'm sorry you're in this situation :(
The Catholic Church is very pragmatic when it comes to saving the health and life of the mother. I think you may be thinking of other Christian denominations.
@PlumeriaSplash: I don't want to hijack this thread but do want to comment on this.
i worked in marketing for a big health women's services organization that you hear in the news quite frequently. We would say- everyone is pro-life, no one is pro-abortion because its an emotionally difficult procedure for women to have to go through (most of the time). People are for a a woman's choice or against. But remember- this is from a super liberal organization.
3xacharm- best of luck to you and a speedy recovery! Thank you for using your personal story to open up this discussion. As a liberal pro choice feminist- I am very open to hearing from those with different views in a safe place- without attacks and going after each other. Xo's
Sorry if I offended by posting my stuff on "choice" vs. "life" semantics. I don't want to argue or hijack the thread!!!! It actually came up because I tried to figure out if I counted to post on the thread (Charm said she wanted people who were "pro-life" to comment on whether she should bring the embryo to term). The confusing bit is that if someone is "pro-life" (as in take every firtilized egg to term) in this situation then of course they'll tell her to take the embryo to term. But I don't think most of the people here believe that, so they're "pro-choice" up until some point (and that point depends on each individual). So that's why I was really confused if I should post or not....
Btw Charm, I really mean no disrespect. I know this is a really difficult time. I'll keep you in my prayers and hope that, whichever choice, your body and spirit heal quickly.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's a horrible position for anyone to be in.
I do consider myself pro-life. I believe in the sanctity of all human life, so I'm also a pacifist and against violence. My beliefs come from a lot of thinking on what is moral and what is ethical, rather than any particluar religion.
In general, I'm anti-abortion. The only exemption I have is for the life of the mother. I still think that it's a horrible thing- but by refusing the abortion, you're basically condemning the mother to die (and therefore the fetus as well). Nobody wins.
I see the issue the way I see killing in self-defense. Yes, it's wrong to kill, and it's a difficult moral choice, but in the end it's probably better than the alternative.
I am so sorry.
But yikes, I would NEVER consider going through with an ectopic pregnancy for any reason. it's incredibly dangerous - it's pretty much guaranteed to rupture your fallopian tubes or uterus, and the fetus will almost certainly not make it to term.
FYI I am pro-choice in general. But I don't see how *anyone* could argue you should go through with an ectopic pregancy. I think you would have a hard time finding a doctor that would allow that...
@PlumeriaSplash: I agree with you on the deceptive term "pro-life". I don't see how it's pro-life to ban an abortion in this case, where you are giving the mother very low odds of surviving an ectopic pregancy.
ETA: Oops, I missed the part where you're looking for pro-life opinions...
Agreed that the terms are very loaded and kind of misleading. I think everyone knows what the terms mean in the political world, though, which is that pro-choice people think that it's a woman's body and a woman's choice, whereas pro-life believes in no abortions, perhaps not even in instances of rape, incest, or when the fetus has tested positive for a very serious congenital defect that will make its life down the road difficult. I previously answered using those generally accepted definitions, regardless of weird semantics.
I'm very sorry to hear about your situation, but you are absolutely doing the right thing for both yourself and the fetus. I wish you all the best during this time.
I do have a question for @GreenEyedMoon: or someone else who really understands the Christian/Catholic stance on abortions, etc.
(an aside, I consider myself a Catholic, but I am "pro-choice", and believe in a few other things that directly contradict the teachings of the church, but that is neither here nor there)
So, what I'm understanding is that the Catholics do not believe it is moral to use medical intervention to directly terminate the life of the fetus (ie suction, KCl injections, etc), but it is moral to terminate a pregnancy via medical intervention by just cutting off the source of life (the womb)? Is that ONLY in the case where it is a threat to the mother? What if it is a very late-term situation? Wouldn't it be inhumane to let a very developed fetus suffer like that? Rather than taking an intervention that would end the life quickly?
Thanks, I'm very curious about the logistics here. Hope this isn't considered thread jacking... I'll delete if this is not appropriate. Let me know.
@September29: If it were very late term - by that, I assume, you mean past five months - they would want the baby to be removed rather than killed because there's a chance the baby could survive outside the womb at that point.
@September29: The Catholic Church's stance on these issues is known in ethics as "The Doctrine of Double Effect". Here is an EXCELLENT summary.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/double-effect/
You are also right that the moral importance of the distinction between "killing" and "letting die" is dubious. There are often cases where it seems inhumane to allow someone to die (who will certainly die) in great pain when it would cause less suffering to take action to end his/her life.
I'm so sorry you are going through all of this! When I was exactly 5 weeks and 3 days pregnant I had a very similar situation. But different as well.
The doctor said he believed I had an ectopic pregnancy, and that the fetus was already possibly dead, not growing. My HCG levels were way off and from the get go there were so many problems (I had a total of 12 ultrasounds during pregnancy, many complications)
Anyways, the doctor scheduled me for daily testing, I was going in every single day giving blood. He scheduled me for an emergency surgery to have the "dead fetus" removed as he believed was the trouble for two days after my appointment. He gave me a 10% chance that the baby was still alive. And even smaller percent that the baby wouldn't have any problems. I went home hysterical.
The day of the surgery I went in and my levels were getting better. While the pregnancy wasn't easy to say, I had a beautiful healthy 9lb baby. I don't know if she was just that lucky to beat the 10%odds or if it was just too soon being 5 weeks to know for certain anything but she's my little miracle baby.
Anyways, As far as the abortion part goes, saving your life for a 5 week fetus that likely wont make it I don't think falls under the typical abortion standards, I think the issue with many people is when the abortions are performed further ahead in the pregnancy and are performed for reasons other than health. I may be wrong though. But if your situation does end up for the worse and you have to abort, I don't see how someone could find wrong in that. It's a nasty word, and when the doctor used the word on me it literally made me cringe to think of it, but I don't think anyone would fault you in a situation like this. And if they did I think they would be angry with anyone over anything.
And don't stone me but I am pro life. However I don't see why it has to be such a white and black ordeal. Why it has to be "Yes abortions to everyone and anyone" or "No abortions whatsoever" I think they should be allowed but with certain stipulations
I'm so sorry for this! :( I am fairly staunchly anti-abortion but fully believe there are reasons to have one, this being one. I think greeneyedmoon phrased what I would say much more eloquently than I could.
Not here to debate since I'm not in the demographic you asked for, but wanted to say I'm sorry to hear about what's going on and I wish you the best of luck, I know it's probably a little scary but you've got a ton of people who care about you in real life and online who hope you'll feel better ASAP and be able to move on. <3
I just sent a link to this thread to my best friend. He's currently in seminary to become a Catholic priest. I hope he weighs in!
i always thought, from a catholic perspective if it comes down to mother or child, then you should save the mother. maybe i made that up
As far as I know, ecoptic pregnancies are not viable, so I wouldn't consider it murder. It may not yet be posing harm to you, but it inevitably will, and if your uterus ruptures, it has no chance anyway (4 or 5 in the history of the world makes me kindof skeptical to think if they were ever ecoptic at all, so I would say no chance). So in the case of ecoptic pregnancies, I don't consider it the same at all as voluntary abortion. I am pro-choice politically, though I would have problems with having a voluntary abortion, but not with removing an ecoptic pregnancy because it will never grow. But in my opinion, pro-life should mean your life, not an ecoptic that could harm you.
Best of luck to you, and I really hope that it isn't ecoptic so you don't have to make such a taxing decision! <3 *hugs* :(
I'm so sorry you are going through this.
I don't know a single pro-life person IRL who would ever claim that a woman with an eptopic pregnancy shouldn't abort the embryo.
I have no idea what I would do/feel/say/think/act if I were in your situation. I am so sorry that you are going through this. Thoughts and prayers are being sent your way!!!
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