Just thought some might be interested in this...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454904,00.html
Sarah
No, that doesn't seem like a good thing. Companies are being told what sort of services they have to provide. It's like suing your local hamburger stand for not serving Thai food or Mexican...It makes no sense at all. There have already been gay dating services. If the people who sued wanted a gay dating service, have at it...There are plenty of sites. I find this quite unfair...and a rather silly lawsuit. Making businesses cater to your needs...and NOT be their business anymore--is really just wrong.
Does seem weird... there are all kinds of different specialized dating sites out there and I think that's OK. That is a business model -- judeo-christian dating, gay dating, dating services for democrats, they all exist and have their own logic which really doesn't apply well to other groups....
Hate to say it but this kind of thing is exactly what the prop 8 people say could happen, even though to many of us it seems... so... implausible!
MJC- I disagree. Not matching same sex couples would be like refusing to match interracial couples or couples of differing religions.
While we cannot make people or companies respect the spirit of a law (in this case- an anti-discrimination law), we can force them to to follow the letter of the law.
Would it be OK for a restaurant to refuse to serve a gay person or person of color saying, "Why do they need to eat here- there is a restaurant that caters to blacks/gays down the street?" The Supreme Court ended segregation saying seperate is not equal- I think that is what is at issue here.
My hope is that people's feelings catch up with our nations laws- you cannot discriminate against people based on their race, religion, sexual orientation, handicaps, etc.
I personally think that they are headed in the right direction. I know it kind of sucks because they are doing it after a heavy lawsuit... but one of my friends told me lots of action and good things come out of lawsuit.
I am happy to hear that they are considering the whole same-sex. At least they are moving forward! But Im sure their will be space for improvement :)
Progress is progress -- I'm happy about it! I think rosychicklet articulated it best :-)
Rosy, gay people could use the site, but it will be geared toward male-female matches. NOT serving people on the site, would be discrimination, but NOT giving them the options they want, is telling them what sort of business to run. If the options they want don't exist on that site, they can go to many others, just like if I want Thai food but I'm at a burger joint, I can still go get Thai food down the road--I don't sue and force the burger shack to start serving Thai.
I see this sort of lawsuit as forcing people against their will to do something they don't want. It's rather unfair..This is not how you get people on your side, and it will only infuriate and upset people, not make them more sympathetic to your cause.
Plus, when reading the article about this, I saw that eHarmony will have to note on their pages that the way people are matched will be based on male-female hetero research...So it may or may not be a valid way to match gay people...Are they gonna sue now so that the folks at eHarmony can now do research to find the best ways to match gay people for compatibility?
I agree with MJC: If dating sites are like restaurants and different orientations are like different types of food, then this situation is like suing a hamburger joint for not serving Mexican food. You may be allergic to hamburgers and/or have a pathological aversion or allergy to meat---such that you couldn't ever eat it, even if you wanted to---but the restaurant isn't denying you a hamburger. If they denied you a hamburger on any basis, that would be discriminatory. But they will serve you a hamburger if you order one. You just don't want it. You can't have it. You want a different kind of food. It's not like they're the only restaurant in town, or like they are force-feeding you hamburgers you don't want. You should not sue the hamburger restaurant for failing to provide you with Mexican food. And above all the government should not be swooping in to tell the hamburger restaurant to open a Mexican place next door.
I don't think the food analogy is apt given that sexual orientation is not a choice (there are physiological and genetic differences that factor into a person's orientation).
If eHarmony was refusing to match people based on their skin color, their religion, their physical attributes, etc. I don't think there would be much to debate- people would agree that it was wrong.
Again, my hope is that people's feelings catch up with our nations laws- you cannot discriminate against people based on their race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, handicaps, etc.
Rosy, I'm going on the assumption that sexual orientation is not a choice for most people. Now, there IS free will in what businesses a person chooses to use. Now, eHarmony didn't discriminate against gay people on their site---Gay people could use it, but the people who brought forth the lawsuit didn't like the choices being offered--that it was opposite gendered instead of same-gendered. Instead of going to another business that did offer what they would want, they chose to sue a private business for not offering what they wanted. To me, it seems like if I go to a men's clothing store (as a woman) and the sign outside states that it has men's clothing, and I am not served b/c I'm a woman, that's worthy of a lawsuit. If I go to the men's clothing store and expect to have women's clothes stocked on shelves and sue, that is just asinine and pointless... I could buy any of the merchandise--I'm not being discriminated against. I just didn't like the choices. I could have gone down the road to a women's clothing store or a store that has both types of clothes, so suing seems a stupid option. And it would be seen as ridiculous for me to tell the men's clothing store to suddenly start selling women's clother...or kids, or change their style of clothing just because I didn't like the option.
If you are denied service based on who you are, that's one issue that is law-suit worthy. If you just don't care for the choices offered, it is childish and silly to sue. You can go to another business.
MJC- I just don't see how refusing to match gay couples is any different from refusing to match interracial couples (something that I think we can all agree would be discriminatory).
Some sites match people based on religion--All kinds of religions, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, etc...
I did a quick search and found a Jewish Dating site for Jewish Singles. If I'm a Christian and I expect to be matched up with another Christian on a Jewish dating site, then should I sue the Jewish dating site for discrimination? It's their right to make their service for Jewish people. I could use this service, but I'll be matched with a Jewish person who is expecting to be matched with another Jewish person... Instead if I want to be matched with someone from a Christian background or have the option to not be matched based on religion, then I could just go to another site.
Now it seems that people could sue this site just b/c they don't offer matches on ALL religions...So now the Jewish dating site needs to include options for Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Atheist, Agnostic...
Also, I found several gay dating sites by putting in a simple search...Are these sites now required to include searches for straight people too, so they can be matched with other opposite-gendered people?
Telling one business what they can and cannot do...Suing them to offer different choices that pleases any and every faction of the population now opens the door for anyone to be sued to offer any service that any other person or group might decide they want. Personally, if I owned my own business, I would not want to be told how to run it and what products to offer...
I agree with mjc. They should've signed up for another site. I see the similarities more with the men/womens clothing store analogy more than the restaurant one. But either way, it's a ridiculous lawsuit.
I am mystified as to why, as a LBGT person, you would choose to give your money to an organization like eHarmony, which is clearly affiliated with the religeous right. These people hang in the same crowd that believes homosexuality can be "cured." Their politics are sufficiently distasteful to me that I couldn't stomach supporting them. So sueing them for the right to contribute to their profit structure seems strange to me. It just seems like it would be a better idea for those of us who disagree with their politics to spend our money elsewhere, even if the site does offer a service we want - provided that we can get it elsewhere, from people with less objectionable politics.
I think MJC and others are using an illogical and illformed analogy. If you want to stick with the restaurant thing - they are being told they can't order a taco because they are gay. They are being discriminated against. Let's leave your restaurant analogy now.
E-Harmony has a mission statement of matching people spiritually, on a bunch of dimensions, etc. No where in there mission statement does it say "our mission is to match heterosexual couples." It actually says stuff like this, "eHarmony members to be matched with compatible persons with whom they are likely to enjoy a long-term relationship." So they aren't selling "tacos" they are selling "matching compatible persons for a long-term relationship." That is what the sign says. It doesn't say "Matching only Jewish people" or "matching only african-americans." The sign says "matching compatible persons." The sign says "tacos."
So yes, the crazy people who ask for Thai food at a taco stand will be told, "go to a Thai restaurant." And the crazy people who go to e-harmony and say, "I'm looking for someone to date casually and/or have a one night stand with" are told to go to match.com.
But if a Black christian man asked to be matched with a christian Asian women and e-harmony said - "you'll have to go to a special dating website for that because we only match christian blacks to other christian blacks" - that would be discrimination. The black man asked for a taco and he was denied. He asked for the service they advertised, and he was denied.
I've known many gay people who identify themselves also by their religion (christian, jewish) and want to meet someone of the same religion. They want to date someone who is also of their religion and probaly those other dimensions that E-harmony advertises. Being a minority group, there are just less gay black christian men out there. It can be hard to find someone when you are straight - it certainly would be hard to find someone who is a minority (or double/triple minority). So when e-harmony says they offer matchmaking on 16 dimensions, gay and straight people thought "yes, I'd like to be matched on 16 dimensions.... I'm happy a dating website is talking about religion and family values, etc." So then the gay man goes to E-Harmony and says "I want to be matched on 16-dimensions" (aka the taco you are advertising) - and e-harmony says - oh, you can't be matched on 16-dimensions cause you are gay. It is discrimination. IT IS DISCRIMINATION. You can make up all the crappy analogies you want, you can make up stupid terms like "reverse-discrimination" and feel bad for the billion dollar company that is being forced to stop discriminating, OR you can open your mind to the idea that discrimination (against gays, but also against hispanics, women, blacks) is still alive and well in America today and pretending it doesn't exist is not a solution.
You can read e-harmony's mission statement here (to see what they are advertising for you lover's of restaurant analogies).
http://eharmony.com/about/eharmony
No where do they say that their business's mission is to match heterosexual couples.
maybe I missed it in the article... but I wonder why they couldn't just add same-sex matching to eharmony instead of creating a new site. Seems to me like they are still trying to keep the LGBTQ community out of eharmony.
Really, my last post. I found their official mission statement. It is under FAQ on their webpage.
Question:
What is eHarmony's mission?
To empower people with the knowledge and inspiration needed to grow and strengthen their most important relationships for a lifetime of happiness.
I don't see where it says "we are in the business of matching heterosexuals." In fact it does say in the FAQ, "To protect our users, we do not give membership to people who apply who are underage, already married or dishonest."
Thus, they have a product they sell to some people, but not others. Some people get the tacos, some don't, all based on sexual orientation. Discrimination.
Thank you enmoore. I was beginning to feel like I was alone in this.
As Suzanno said- I too wouldn't/don't support companies that discriminate against anyone. If I were gay I would be very passionate about not supporting companies that discriminate against me.
However, I think the man that brought this lawsuit did the right thing. He may not want to give them his money, but bringing the lawsuit was the only way to draw attention to the issue and to force that company to comply with anti-discrimination laws.
Do you think blacks and Jews in this country really wanted to join country clubs full of bigots? Probably not. But someone had to be first to stand up and point out the discrimination by applying for membership.
I think that's what this man has done in suing eHarmony. The lawsuit may not be able to force eHarmony to embrace the spirit of anti-discrimination laws, but it can force them comply with the letter of the law. At least that's a first step.
Does this mean a return of the departed bees?
I've been following each of them on their private blogs, but I'd love to see them come back to the hive!
That didn't even occur to me desertbride, I would love for them to come back! Like you, I've been following their private blogs.
Hey, I'm saying that as a gay person you can use e-Harmony's service, but you wouldn't be matched up with same-gendered people--I'm sorry if that's not your cup of tea or your preference or what you would want. My "crappy analogies" were to state essentially that a person should choose to only use businesses that have something good to offer them--I use businesses that will offer me something I want. If they DON'T offer what I want, I go elsewhere. I don't sue them.
By not using e-Harmony's site, you are not being deprived of finding love. Most people in this world find love and have found love pretty well without e-Harmony--gay, straight, interracial, whatever, whoever...and will so in the future either way. AND not have to pay for the "right" to pay hundreds of dollars to be matched up online...
And if you don't care for e-Harmony but want a business LIKE them out there for gay people, why not create your own business that does match people on compatibility for a long-term relationship? Why give your cash to e-Harmony (and a lot of it at that) if you don't agree with them? You don't sue someone so that they will create a business that will cater to what you are looking for...If it doesn't exist already, you could actually make your own site.
Telling someone what type of business to run is actually wrong in and of itself. Just because you don't like what is being offered doesn't mean you should sue to get what you want--If you don't want the product they have to offer (setting you up in a male-female relationship), then find another site that DOES offer what you want.
Again, I ask you, does the reverse hold true--Should we now sue all other websites that are for people of specific backgrounds, including gay dating sites, so that they will include ALL people?
@ mjc714411 I agree with what you are saying and I believe your analogies were spot on as well as the clothing store metaphore presented earlier.
This is exactly like forcing a Jewish dating website to match Buddhists. A company's mission statement doesn't have to outline specifically what products they sell.
To speak to the bigger topic, this is exactly what supporters of Prop 8 were afraid of and this exactly reverse discrimination.
As someone who is a proponent of gay equality in marriage, I am not sure I agree that e-Harmony should legally need to provide same-sex matching. Honestly I am torn.
There are a ton of very focused dating sites - Jdate, blacksingles, etc. which cater to small groups. Now granted, you don't have to be Jewish to join Jdate or black to join blacksingles. But you are on sites looking to match Jews and blacks. Seems like the same thing with eHarmony - you can be gay and join, but the site is devoted to hetereo matching....
That is the difference with the country club membership example = you could not join if you were Jewish or black. Illegal. To me the better analogy to e-Harmony is an anti-semetic WASPy club allowing a Jew in (gay people can join), but that Jew never feeling comfortable or like they belonged (but can't be matched with other people of the same sex). Legal, but I don't know why someone who is not welcome would want to be there in the first place!
Just to clear something up, on certain targeted dating sites (JDate for Jewish matches is the only example I'm sure about) you definitely CAN sign up and match with people outside that group. They don't list all the different religions, but they do have "Unaffiliated," "Will tell you later," and "Willing to convert" as options under the religious background section, and I know that a lot of people from other religions DO use the site. So basically, these "exclusive community" dating sites are still required to let ANYONE join because remember that whole "discrimination is illegal" thing? That applies to them too.
So, like suzanno said, I hope that the GBLT community chooses to support companies who actively welcome them instead of begrudgingly creating a separate-but-equal site for their use, but I still think the bare minimum we can accept right now is that eHarmony complies with THE LAW by making their service available to all people.
To reiterate enmoore's point I don't see where eHarmony says that they only cater (for lack of a better word) to hetero couples. To repost again:
Question:
What is eHarmony's mission?To empower people with the knowledge and inspiration needed to grow
and strengthen their most important relationships for a lifetime of
happiness.
The are offereing matching services for people, not straight couples, just people. And if they are saying that they match up people, then by not including gays they are being discriminatory.
Maybe some people think that its just semantics. I think they (eHarmony) is trying to have their cake and eat it to. They don't want to just say Christians because it would eliminate certain customers but at the same time they wanted to be selective about who is able to use the service. You know what thats called? Discrimination.
Lbo- eHarmony may not have this posted on their site, but their founder has said in public interviews that their matching algorithm is based on heterosexual matching data, and does not include that for GLBT matches. He's also said that eHarmony's goal is marriage and that because GLBT couples cannot lawfully be wed in most states, they are outside the "mission" of eHarmony.
From a marketing/business standpoint, there really isn't anything wrong with either of these statements. But what it comes down to is whether it is really that straightforward, or whether it is ethical or discriminatory.
For better or worse, I am very happy to see that eHarmony will be making this change, and while again, I can understand that they might be makign a separate site for GLBT clients for branding/business/marketing reasons (i.e. better moneymaking), I hope it is JUST that and not that they are buying into the "separate but equal" mindset.
I don't post very often on this site but I was stupefied to read the above comments. It infuriates me that there are still so many people who just don't get it. Enmoore's example was perfect but to further illustrate it to others out there.
The lawsuit is not asking the "burger joint" to add tacos to their menu, it's requiring the burger joint to sell their existing menu to EVERYONE, including gays. Right now, EHarmony's burger joint is selling burgers to everyone except gay people. So in essence, they are discriminating towards one specific group of people.
The lawsuit would not change EHarmony business much (if at all) since they don't need to do anything else other than to allow gay people the opportunity to use their matching services. A simple check box that says "Sexual Orientation: gay" is really all that's needed.
People are essentially the same the world over so those 16 dimensions that they use to match up straight people will also work for gay people. It's tough enough to find love in this world, I don't understand why people would deny other people the tools to try.
bluebell - You can sign up for e-harmony if you are gay right? You just can't have it match same sex. You can sign up for Jdate if you are Christian, but you can't make it match your denomination (which if you are Jewish, you can). I don't really see the difference.
I actually discussed this with a gay friend who made the following points:
1. If a company is publically traded, it can't be discrimanatory
2. As a gay person, my coworker would NEVER support eHarmony due to the fact that they were discrimanatory
My coworker also happened to agree that asking them to trade was just like asking for Thai food at a Mexican restaurant. That being said, he was incredibly happy that it is being brought to light, not for eHarmony specifically, but for the principle of the matter.
Janna - no, you only have the option of being a "man seeking a woman" or a "woman seeking a man." If that does not describe you, then you are not able to sign up. Sure, anyone could lie (aka say they were Jewish) but no one who is not seeking an opposite sex match can sign up based on who they actually are.
ahhh, interesting. Thanks Bluebell.
Just for the record, I would never support eHarmony either and I completely disagree with their views on gay marriage/relationships.
I've been pretty aggravated by this thread because people are confusing what eharmony is legally entitled to do and what they choose to do as a business. I am a very strong supporter of same sex rights and ordinarily would not choose to affiliate myself with organizations that do not support or recognize the validity in a same sex reationship or the importance/right of same sex marriage. However, those posters who are arguing against eharmony's new site or their prior refusal to same sex match as a legal violation are simply not correct. While sexual orientation should be a proteced class, it is not. Only race, gender, ethnic heritage, etc. are protected classes. Sexual orientation is not protected by the federal or (to my knowledge) any state constitutions. Therefore, anyone or any organization can discriminate freely based on sexual orientation. Furthermore, even if it was a protected class, from a federal constitution standpoint, there is absolutely no violation for a private entity to choose to exclude same sex couples. The federal constitution discrimination provisions do not protect citizens from private action - only government action. Now, state constitutions can prohibit discrimination on a private level based on sexual orientation, but to my knowledge that has not yet been done (unfortunately). Nor am I aware of other state lor federal legislation making it illegal to discriminate based on sexual orientation. In the absence of any state or federal law, eharmony is not doing anything "wrong" from a legal perspective, and they cannot be made to accept anyone. Now, I realize there was a lawsuit pending based on eharmony's refusal to same sex match. I admittedly have not read any of the pleadings in this lawsuit, so I am not familiar with the plaintiff's arguments. However, I would be very surprised based on the current state and federal jurisprudence if the lawsuit were ultimately successful. Nevertheless, eharmony chose to settle the lawsuit, a condition of which was to offer same sex matching. This was a business decision - not a recognition of its prior violation of any law whatsoever. We are all aware that the law does not recognize or protect all basic human rights, which is very unfortunate. But I take issue with posters claiming that eharmony's prior practices are violations of any law or constitutional right (as the constitution is currently interpreted). The truth is that eharmony did not violate any law - its stance on same sex matching may be offensive (as I believe it is), but it is not illegal. And it may be unethical (as I believe it is), but it is not illegal. I think all of these posts miss the point and are unfortunately dangerous because they inadvertently take away from the main point - what eharmony did in the past or is doing in the furture is its own choice. If we as a society want same sex couples to enjoy the same rights and privileges as heterosexual couples, if we as a society want to recognize that sexual orientation is no more a choice than skin color, race or ethnic heritage is, then we need to focus not on individual companies that are making decisions we might not necessarily agree with but instead on the governments that are not recognizing sexual orientation as a protected class. Of course if eharmony or other companies are acting in ways that are personally offensive, then personal action should be taken - don't subscribe to eharmony, don't offer it your patronage. But it is a waste to be outraged and scream about the injustice of it if you don't realize where the problem and the remedy lie. Unfortunately, eharmony did nothing legally wrong, and they are offering a new service not out of any legal obligation but out of a business decision to end a lawsuit that while probably not destined to be successful will ultimately cost them a lot of money to defend. It makes no sense to single eharmony out without recognizing that it's simply existing in the corporate market the nation has sanctioned. Anyway, this is a very long rant/post, and I apologize for the length and if it has sounded preachy at all.
Noladawg, from my standpoint, you nailed it. I completely agree with you.
Also, as a teacher I must say something... reverse-discrimination doesn't exist. Discrimination does not apply simply to the majority against the minority, it is when anyone makes a decision in favor or against anyone else based on a catagory. I just had to have a conversation today with a parent who was saying that her blond haired, blue eyed child was experiencing "reverse-discrimination" from some Asian students. Sorry for the teacher rant... :)
Actually, NO, not all people are alike--not research-wise, not from a demographic point of view. Groups of people are unique and complex, and there are many factors to consider when thinking of them in a research situation.
If you are looking at eHarmony as research, you couldn't say that how ALL people are matched up using whatever algorithm that eHarmony uses works for everyone...I'm assuming they must have used some sort of standarization process or norming data of heterosexuals-both male and female--maybe even info about couples with the most longevity, although I admit that I have no clue what they based that all on or how they came to their conclusions and what sort of results they have had for people, but they have to have statistics they base this on and subjects they used to come to the conclusions they did in the creation of the algorithm--and most likely not just "Oh, they answered ALL of these questions just the same, so they're perfect for each other."
Also, demographics such as male and female preferences might come into play when looking at male-male matches and female-female matches--and homosexual males and females might be looking for something different in a partner preference-wise than male-female matches and from each gender of gay partner, so that could potentially call for the need for the research to be tailored to "male-male" matches and "female-female" matches--I'm guessing the folks at eHarmony haven't been busy researching preferences and compatibility in gay relationships. I'm interested how these matches will turn out...what if they're all duds since they're based on research using straight couples? But wait...I'm just hearing people chime in..."Well, they might be duds, but at least they're offering this option to gay people, and that's a step in the right direction!" Well, that's lovely and wonderful and birds will sing and unicorns will fly over rainbows, but these people will be paying dearly for poor matches if that is the case--And eHarmony will again be the villain since they are offering "shoddy services" to gay people--and someone will probably sue again. And to think that the crappy service was b/c some dude who went a long way feeling angry and suing people so that eHarmony would offer a gay dating site- for it all to be a sham since it is based on faulty research (ie-research that does not apply to them and their preferences specifically) in the first place.
Megan, I'm also with you on the discrimination existing for anyone--It's possible, and it can be arbitrary--I've heard of studies where complete strangers in a group disliked each other based on being in a group of "us" vs. "them", eye color, what they were wearing, hair color, hand used for writing, etc...
And, I STILL stand by this---If a business doesn't offer what you want, just go elsewhere--Don't sue. The fact is that gay people can use this site--They aren't restricted from using the site--BUT it isn't targeted at them AND they'd have to choose "Man looking for woman" or "Woman looking for man." AND the site is of no use to them if they are gay, but it'd be ridicluous to sue any business that isn't of use to your specific needs. And, I have a feeling that a lot of this lawsuit has to do with what eHarmony represents to certain people who don't like them and that suing them was therapeutic since they have been associated with the "religious right" and "focus on the family." AND THEN there's fact that all of this is now *completely* beside the point--The deal is done, and there WILL be a gay eHarmony site.
It seems wrong to restrict businesses in how they run..We now have to include EVERY need of ALL people ALL the time, lest we happen to offend ANYONE, ANYWHERE, at ANYTIME. Sometimes it feels like we are becoming a nation of whiners, hall monitors, and criers waiting with our hands up for the teacher to come take sides.
So, on that whiny note: I'm still waiting to hear about when straight people can sue gay dating sites to include a "hetero" option...
Not to enter the fray too much, but I believe this discussion needs to be based on facts. As of 2004, 21 states had passed a law making sexual orientation a protected class. In states where sexual orientation isn't a protected class, individuals cities have included sexual orientation as a protected class for things like housing, etc.
Thanks, loveatfisrtsightlover. I didn't realize that. I wonder if any of those laws apply to private actors. It's at least a good sign of progress.
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