@subtlebee: I think that all can be valid reasons, but I think things like "you messed up my plan and now I don't want to marry you anymore" is a bunch of hooey. If they say something like "You messed up my plans so now you'll have to wait a couple more months so I can plan something special" then that's okay I guess.
I used to think that pressure was a bunch of hooey too, but after my friends told me to back off my SO and looking back on how much I harassed my SO I think that pressure is sometimes valid and sometimes not. It is hard to want to do something when someone is breathing down your neck to DO IT DO IT NOW! Guys just need to be ready on their own, and all the pressure in the world isn't going to hurry it up. Some might cave and say okay fine let's get married, but I don't think anyone really wants that. Pressure just slows them down from getting there on their own sometimes, but other times it's just the kick in the pants that they need.
Money issues can be valid too, but not if he is spending money on buying a new boat etc. and he says he doesn't have money for a ring.
So, I guess it depends on the situation - everyone knows their SO best, and so they need to judge the situation on their own.
@MariaW: ok, but how do girls know when its an excuse v. truth. A guy can buy stuff and still save and a guy can say it'll be a few months and just come up with another excuse. How can you avoid wasting time waiting/walking away because you pegged it wrong?
@subtlebee: I don't know, I guess it depends what your relationship with your SO is like, and the kind of person he is. Sometimes it's really obvious, and other times it isn't - I'd say only you can be the judge of that. There are also all these ideas of how things shouldn't be this hard or this way or whatever, and if he really wanted to do it he would move mountains and fight dragons and such, but that isn't how it is for everyone. I've had friends have zero problems with waiting only to have everything fall apart months later, and others who had a miserable time with waiting, and had to break up and issue ultimatums and what not, who are extremely happy now that they are married. I guess my point is that there are many different paths to get there, and that sometimes things are a little more complicated, and that's okay.
"How can you avoid wasting time waiting/walking away because you pegged it wrong?"
Be in a mutually respectful relationship where you don't play silly games with each other?
Just a thought.
The only way i think to tell an excuse with the truth is to trust your own woman's intuition.
Haha, how 'bout all 3!!!! He complained for the longest time about not having enough money to buy me a ring, despite my reminders that he technically had almost 6 years to save up for one. He also would tell me he had a "plan" and that he didn't want me to keep "pushing" the issue and mess it up. He wasn't thrilled with the "pressure" I was putting on him.
Thankfully he has said he's going to propose by the end of the year, and I believe him. He actually told his grandfather, to try to cheer him up (SO's grandmother passed away in July, grandfather is 92 and not doing well unfortunately). So now I'm just trying to be patient and avoid bringing it up so he can keep his "surprise" a secret :)
ETA: I don't believe he used those things as excuses, per se. They are all valid reasons for waiting to propose. That and of course the fact that he's scared of marriage and of change. Not a good combo!
I would have to say if your SO is serious about marrying you, then he should be willing to have a timeline that he sticks too. If he tellls you "before New Years" and New Years comes with no ring, then I would doubt his commitment. If he says within a year of graduating college and that time passes with no ring, I would doubt his commitment.
Even if age is a factor and they don't want to get married before they're 25 or 30, then they should be able to talk to you about that and both of you agree on a timeline.
If marriage is important to me and I was ready and he wasn't, we would have to agree to a timeline that he stuck too. Otherwise you risk wasting the best years of your life on someone that will never commit.
If someone wants to get engaged/married then I don't think there ever is a truly valid reason for not doing it. All an engagement technically requires is 4 words. (some think a ring - and even if that's the case, you can find a ring on the cheap to "seal the deal"). As for marriage, it requires two people being present at a courthouse during the hours of 9-5 and somewhere around $50 for the marriage license.
@subtlebee: It really depends on so many factors, age of the couple, stages in life, career and financial standings, length of relationship. Every individual is ready for marriage at different points, or want to accomplish certain things before taking that step. Some relationships have more open commuincation about the future on a regular basis, some don't.
In my opinion, there will be signs showing the difference between a relationship headed for marriage or a relationship where the guy or girl is just comfortable and stalling ending things. Only those invovled in the relationship can even try to determine where things stand.
I think if you really can't tell the difference between being in a healthy relationship that has marriage in the future or a dead end one, then chances are you're inot with the right person.
I knew within a few months that me and my FI would end up getting married. We were always open and honest with eachother and had no problems discussing marriage, kids or the future for us in general.
In that type of relationship, you are going to know pretty early on if age, life stages, finanacial standings, etc are going to be something you need to take into consideration.
To me, they are all excuses. My opinion will not be popular, but here it is:
There isn't much romance in me, so I don't see the necessity of a surprise proposal, or a ring that costs more than what you can afford right now.
I believe that as soon as both people agree that they want to spend their lives together, they should be engaged. In that case, there is no pushing since both are ready and do it right away. No surprise proposal to be ruined. No need to save money for a ring. About a year (or less or more, whatever you want) to plan a wedding within your means, again, money is a non issue.
So, yeah... All excuses to me. If you're both ready to commit, nothing should stand in the way.
@MariaW: that is very well said. even though it is helpful to read about others experiences, every situation is just soooo different.
it also comforts me knowing even if I had the surprise proposal I wish I had a year ago, it's no guarantee thing would have worked out for the better. Not to take away from those who had it, it is definitely the nicest way to start out a marriage. But I am going to try to stop beating him up for draggingg it out, it is not helping anything.
@MrsWBS +1 As a friend told me once, a man that wants to get married would even be open to heading to the JP tomorrow if so desired...but I agree there's a difference between needing additional time/money to do things a certain way vs. stalling. Another girlfriend realized her beau was stalling after 5 years. He basically gave her a list of things he wanted her to accomplish before they got married...and some of the items were damn near impossible (in her opinion) and it finally hit her that he doesn't want to get married.
@Waitingtoexhale: I wrote somewhere on here about how I felt that waiting has taken away something from the whole proposal part of things, but to be honest (and it's just been a few days) I don't know if I feel like that anymore. I never thought I'd find someone as wonderful as my SO. I thought I'd find someone nice that I loved and everything, but he has exceeded everything I ever imagined, and I now think that whatever happens will be just perfect for us. =)
P.S. I wouldn't beat your SO up anymore about the proposal part of things. Like I said, it's nice, but not THE thing needed to start a good marriage. Then again I'm not engaged so really I don't know how much I would trust me. I just know that I'm SO much more happier now that I've laid off the whole thing, and I do feel like my SO is getting there in his own time, and once he's there we can hold hands and move on to the next step together. And if for some reason or another he doesn't get there, my life will still be wonderful and I'll still be amazing and having had him in my life will have made me a better person.
Sorry for the long post!
@pharmy: The thought is nice but i think that may not get at the question. when you believe your relationship is mature and you are honest with each other, how can you know if he is?
@stargazer102706: I agree they are all valid (though the you messed it up is most likely to get me to say bullshit, bye)
@cerenatee: high five, amen, we can be friends! I hate being told when things will happen and then they dont. I equate it to lying even if that wasnt the initial intention!
@MrsWBS: You, me and @cerenatee need to hang out. no excuses need join!
@drummerbride: well you have the ring so you've forgotten the messy pre-pro art =0p
@mommytobee: fine. you can come to our hang out too since you are all walk it not talk it
@Waitingtoexhale: idk, one thing ive learned here is that all of our relationships are special but the good ones arent very different. Some took longer to get to what i would call good but once they get there, they radiate the same kindof selfless love. I think sometimes we make more excuses for our boo's than they make to us. And clearly a lot of the ones here make a lot of excuses.
I say don't tell me why you can, let me know when you can!
@cyclingchick: oh lord 5 years? i'd be on baby number one with my sperm donor but still waiting for him to get it together? no thanks!
@MariaW: I think my boo giving me the timeline (knowing i dont deal with people letting me down) helped me chill. BUT if he starts making excuses I think I would explode, and quickly. I dont have a filter. at. all. its why i worry about this no snarkiness thing. My default is light snark heavy sarcasm.
I digress. This was fun.
@subtlebee: "The thought is nice but i think that may not get at the question. when you believe your relationship is mature and you are honest with each other, how can you know if he is?"
I guess I'm not sure what you're getting at, then.
Either a man wants to marry you or he doesn't. Either he is honest with you or he is not. You don't need to pick apart everything he says and does and be paranoid and doubtful about it. That's not what I would refer to as a mutually respectful relationship.
@subtlebee: it's true... he makes too many excuses... and i have to make excuses for him if i want to stay with him. that's why things are sort of coming to a head.
i would rather he proposed earlier and without pressure. but, not enough to leave him.
part of the reason i tolerate it is that at least i feel he takes it seriously.for example, he decided he wanted this really expensive ring we looked at. i didnt know the price when we looked at it, or say it was the only thing i liked, it was one of several rings at the first store we went to, and i just thought we were getting started looking. and as this has taken longer than i wanted, i asked him to get something less expensive, i feel the ring is excessive. but he wants to be proud of it and thats his thing. he now has the money for it so it should be coming any day. i didnt get a vote... that was the ring.
at the time he proposes, he will have all of the money saved to pay for our wedding with no help. and he said it can be anywhere that i want.
he views it as his duty to be able to support me and future children by himself, without me working. i did not ask for this, this is how he thinks it should be.
i would like it if he didnt have all these ideas and i was already engaged. i am not saying that he is right, it's just how he is. but, talking to a good friend whose husband makes her feel crappy for not earning money (while their kids are still in diapers and she moved to a city with less work for her... for his job)... i remember that she had a much more romatic proposal than me, and one she didnt push for. i would not want her life in a million years tho.
by the way he is not sexist, he is sort of traditional about a man being a breadwinner, but also supports whatever i want to do, including working out of town or going back to school. he's kind of like, whatever you do is fine... but i will have the bases covered and that's how i feel comfortable.
i would like him to be just who he is but have proposed sooner. but that isn't an option for me.
so i would have liked some things to be different but i dont know that i would trade...
Also- even though this is not a good quality- i notice he kinda procrastinates and gives overly optimistic timeframes for things across the board. so... while that is an annoying quality, i guess it makes it seem a little less personal?
he takes waaay longer than i want to do a lot of things... but he does do it eventually.
just as i am about to kill him.
its a good thing i really really love him. LOL
I know from our previous communications that school is an issue here...and TRUST ME, I know how much that seems like a cop-out to stall. But it just boils down to whether or not you trust him to the ends of the earth and back or not. This isn't an easy trust...it's rare and sticky and complicated. I'm with the PP saying it boils down to female intuition. You either feel it or you don't.
Either a man wants to marry you, or he doesn't. Sometimes they take a long time to ask, but they do NOT usually take a long time to know. The sad thing, though, is a lot of times they won't tell you one way or the other.
This is why a woman must love herself enough to have the hard conversations, and not tolerate being strung along.
If your man is "punishing" you for wanting to have a simple conversation about it, or for "ruining the surprise" you have a very bad dynamic. That sounds a lot more like a parent and child vs. two equals.
I think the whole someone wants to marry you or doesn't kind of oversimplifies things. Sometimes (and there's a lot of discussion on this on APW) it's a matter of one person being ready, and another not quite there. So, it isn't quite so simple. I think key to that is communication: what is holding the other person back? Do they need time to get used to the idea? Do they need to feel like they are in a better place financially, etc.? Without communication, there is no way of knowing this. And saying someone wants to marry you or doesn't discounts the feelings that either one of you might have surrounding the whole issue.
As others have mentioned, also important is your gut feeling. Do you feel that this person is getting there, and that they do indeed want to marry you? For others it's also a matter of what the words mean - one person might say yes I want to marry you but I'm not ready yet. Another might say I don't know if I want to marry you - if I did I would just ask. So these kind of things all make a difference. It's also important to consider how you feel - maybe you're fine with waiting for a year, but not five. Also, some people say that timelines aren't the way to go, but for others they serve a practical purpose. The only way anything ever gets figured out is through communication, and when both of you lay your feelings etc. regarding the issue on the table. If you're with someone who treats you like an equal when it comes to communication (as EffieTrinket says) you're already one step closer to figuring things out, and able to have the hard conversations take place, and that's a great thing.
@pharmy: I can agree with you in general, but the point is I dont think a lot of us can tell which our SO is unless we have the hindsight of a proposal/no proposal. I was wondering about more concrete ideas for us to use (i hope my boo is being genuine but you never know!)
@Waitingtoexhale: I think this is all valid. The waiting only matters in the present because it affects our moods and sometimes even self worth. If you believe that he isn't stalling and these things are very important to him then that is your relationship. I don't think waiting diminishes that at all, though it isn't for everyone.
Sometimes I wish I was capable of waiting like a lot of you, but hey we are who we are!
@EffieTrinket: I agree. if he changes his mind and blames you, thats a problem. it forshadows future relationship dynamics that will be unhealthy.
@MariaW: I talked to the boo about this. He would always say how i was the one and he wanted to marry me. Constant future talk, but then when i asked him one day (at this point hypothetically) if he'd marry me he said he wasn't ready. I was blown away because to me if you know im the one and you want to marry me, you know im the one and you want to marry me. I was basically like i cant take you saying stuff you dont mean so no future talk. This was completely unrealistic but whenever he'd say something like that it started to really bother me. Long story short i explained that if he knew these things and cared about my happiness then why wait?
I think a lot of guys are so concerned with societies idea of how things should rogress that they forget the unique details of their relationship. Once he understood that i dind't care about the ring or wedding, only him, he seems to have come around. I also think his desire to live together might help some. idk. it's all soooo confusing and clearly I am not good at patience. Come on proposal!
@MariaW: I think you're spot on with being 'there'. My SO and I have been through all the ups and downs of me being ready and him just not. I've questioned myself, him and the relationship. Really, he just needed to get there and he did. But it took a whole lot of patience on my part.
@relaxedabout it: I had the opposite issue in the beginning - I was like "you want to do WHAT with me?" in my head whenever he brought it up, even though I had already had my omg I just knew moment. Weird, right? Now that I'm ready, he's taking a little longer to switch modes from the idea of getting married to the reality of it, but I have faith that he will get there - not just because of his words, but because of his actions.
Sometimes, it just takes going with your gut, and having a little patience.
@subtlebee: I think sometimes it can seem that a person wants a wedding or to get married for the sake of it, and not to that specific person, and that can make them feel less than special. Good that you got it straightened out!
Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. It's just that waiting would make me feel miserable and I don't understand why a loving partner would make you feel like that for the sake of a surprise or jewelry, if he could avoid it quite easily. It seems like most relationships are impacted negatively by this, so, why not just discuss, agree to get married, agree on a date, and if he wishes to surprise you with an expensive ring and proposal scenario, it can be done later.
That's what I would personally prefer. I didn't have a proposal per say, but I wouldn't trade it with a proposal if it had to come with that waiting phase that is not positive on the relationship. I feel for you.
@mommytobee: Maybe because such things are important to them? I don't know. I'm in the I'm ready and he isn't quite there yet category, and spent soooooo many months being miserable and crying about it earlier this year but have backed off some and actually feel pretty good about things now. So maybe waiting happens in phases, I don't know. It isn't always easy, but I do want him to be ready and have things unfold in a way that is good for BOTH of us, and not just for me, since it is supposed to be a partnership after all.
If there's anything both of us have learned throughout this whole process it's how strong our relationship is, and how much we love each other, and in this time we've had many good discussions about what we want a marriage to look like, that we probably wouldn't have had if things were much easier. These things are especially important to someone who doesn't have a healthy model of marriage to follow, like my SO. So while our journey to get there might be a little difficult, hopefully things will be easier once we actually are married, since we've worked on so much already.
Sorry for my super long posts - I've totally become a thread hog!
I think it depends on the person but sometimes things change within that person weither good or bad.
Does a proposal work because maybe pressure from the chick? Could be. Is it formed as a plan with the couple? I guess in most cases. Or is it out of love a proposal comes forth? Very likely.
The excuse could be that the guy is happy being with this girl and just doesn't want the whole legal binding. He rather keep his single ways. Or doesn't see the need for marriage becauses of different circumstances. The whole "Wait I can't afford...not ready etc" could be a gentle way in saying "Baby, I don't want you as my wife."
Anyone watch "His just not that into you" ? Jennifer Aniston's character was with her partner (Ben Affleck) for seven years and finally questions if he is going to make an honest woman of her. After some time apart Ben finally comes back and proposes.
As for me Mr FW in 2010 we were at a local market and there was a nice ring at a stall. Mr FW was haggling and he said something like "Oh I don't want her to think it was an engagement ring". I blushed and thought maybe he might propose or be on the same wave level to engagement.
Later that year he told our former friends that he didn't want to marry me. For various unjust reasons.
You know what I could have left him. I know when I found out that I told him I hated him for telling these people that was the way he felt. That I didn't understand his reasons for why he didn't want to marry me. Some were superficial reasons and I actually stood my ground and told him some home truths about him that I hold my tongue about.
Finally I said "Why bother hanging around me then, obviously I see I wasted five years being with you. You're happy to be having sex with me, do things with me etc. Yet you have pathetic reasons not to contemplate marriage with me."
I didn't see him for a few weeks. I had a good hard think and thought I'm not going to throw away five years. I loved him and regard him as my best friend. I was content with the lifestyle we have. Marriage doesn't really matter.
Fast forward to a year later and he was already talking about proposing to me with my sister and mother. He has this big plan on making a ring for me from items found on his property.
Early this year he apparently proposed and I answered no. I was kind of shocked when he told my friend that he did ask and some how my answer was negative. If I did know he wanted to be engaged I would have said yes of course. However I think he worded the question wrong (in regards to the ring).
See it has happened to me. I have dwelled with the excuses and the whole why hasn't he proposed or talked about an option of marriage. It just so happened that two former friends (they loved causing drama and tried to break SO and I up on numerous occassions) blabbed to me that SO didn't want to marry me.
I confronted him we argued and finally I learned communicating and understanding were we see ourselves in the relationship helped us to move forward.
@MariaW: Thanks! And yeah, waiting for someone to be ready is different. My problem is when the guy says he is ready but still makes you wait. But waiting for the other to be ready, I've been through it.. All you can do is to be a patient and loving partner, it will make him see the light! :)
@mommytobee: oh. i've only been with him like ten months so i havent been waiting till recently. and he said by the end of feb hed do it. I honestly dont know how some of the ladies on here wait years and years. I cant even wait for my cat to want cuddles, i just chase her and steal them
disclaimer: i'm grading papers at the moment so proofreading in not what it should be
@FrannyW: How cute is the making a ring from something on his property! I think that is adorable!!! And yeah, yay for communication.
@mommytobee: I realized that while harassing my SO about getting married that I had actually become a not-so-nice person - who wanted to be with someone like that? Now that I've backed off he can't call me often enough, and has commented that things were like before again and all kinds of other yummy things. Yay to that. =)
@subtlebee: 10 months? That's still pretty early but hey whatever works for you.
@MariaW Yeah I love the gesture. He obviously wants to make it special.
@subtlebee I have been with my SO for well over 7 years. I get the love, cuddles, kisses etc that I need. There is times when I see on FB the engagements/weddings and wonder why have I not reached that stage yet? However as I said I'm content with my relationship and hoping one day SO and I will take the next level.
@MariaW: Idk when you know you know. I'm 27, in grad school, i've lived abroad, and I feel comfortable in my decision making skills. When I was younger I wouldn't have dreamed of marrying any of the guys I dated, somehow with him it just clicked.
I'm glad that you focusing on other things is bringing your guy around. I hope he realizes how important you are to him.
@FrannyW: I have people from highschool on marrieage number two while i was still trying to figure the rest of my life out. Its no good comparing yourself. So long as your guy isn't keeping you on the leash, to reference HIMYM, youre fine!
@mommytobee: I think it's great that you don't need a proposal or anything, good for you. but some of us bees have been looking forward to that since birth. And our SOs want us to be bappy and they have been looking forward to proposing. I personally want a proposal story to share with my family, friends, and future. I have a friend who to this day is unhappy with her proposal and hates when people ask how he did it bc he didnt do anything and they had been together over 10 years before they got engaged). We wait because we think it's worth waiting for and it is important to us and it is especially important to our SOs. Is it hard? Of course! But the second it (finally) happens it will be worth it. That doesn't make waiting wrong or stupid and definitely don't have to feel sorry for us.
On a side note, I just ran a half this weekend too. Go us
@HeartsandSparkles: I'm not saying I feel sorry for you or that it is stupid.
I am saying that I empathise with those who are tired of waiting - I would not have been able to do that. There are some people waiting for months, even years and feel miserable all that time.
I think if their partners were ready, they would propose. Using money/surprise/ other reasons, are, in my view, a way of indicating they are not quite ready yet. But they don't want so say they're not ready so they buy a little time to get their minds around it. This is my answer to the OP who was asking about that.
@mommytobee: Waiting isn't miserable all the time. Some days are tough, but at least for me, most days are great. I have an amazing and he makes me very happy. When I do have a rough day, I have a supportive hive of awesome bees who understand how I feel. You aren't a waiting bee and you never were, so you really don't know what it's like, but at least for me, I certainly don't feel miserable all the time.
As for OP, i think there are some excuses that are legitimate and valid. For me, I know SO is ready to get married but he recently went back to school, doesn't have much disposable income, and needs some time to save for a ring. He wants to get me a nice ring, not extravagant, but on a student budget even that takes some time. Goodness knows that in this economy there are a lot of people who very well may want to get married but need a few months to purchase a ring. And if you are really honest with yourself, you can tell if it is an excuse or not.
I think you just have to trust your own judgement to figure out if an excuse is valid, and be really honest with yourself. If you guys are broke, then yeah, money might be a valid excuse. If he's buying himself all sorts of frivolous things and you know he just got a bonus but is saying money is the problem... then maybe not so much. I think another way to get through the bs and figure out if it's an excuse or not is the context. Has he been telling you he wants to get married but just needs time on his own, or does he only say this when you pester him about it? Has he maintained that he has wanted to marry you before you ever brought it up seriously, or did he only agree to move forward after being pressured, until this new "roadblock" presented itself? It's frustrating to think that our partners may not always be 100% honest with us, but I think there are lots of guys who are almost ready (or think they're almost ready...) who try to buy themselves extra time with excuses, when they should really just be honest and let their partners decide if they want to wait or not.
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So I haven't been here long but I wonder the following: How often do you read post about women "ruining" the surprise, or pushing too much, or money issues (etc.) and wonder if he is telling the truth or just avoiding saying "I don't want to marry you"?
I feel this is a difficult question because some guys are being completely honest and some aren't. How on earth is a girl supposed to separate the two?
Are their clues?
Do you even look for clues or close your eyes, say you love and trust this dude, and ignore any evidence to the contrary?
If you don't believe him, does that mean you love him any less?
Note: I know somebody is going to take this personally. It really isn't meant to be (though if it walks like a duck...) I am just curious.