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*** I am posting about my personal experience. You may have found something completely different and I'd love to hear it.***
I'm talking about the stigma against being a married woman.
I've always considered myself to be a feminist. Not in the man-bashing way, but in supporting other women. I started volunteering for the Women's Issues Network in my area this year, and I loved everything about it. Helping the women's shelter and being a part of Take Back the Night made me feel really good, but as I spent time with the other volunteers I relized that many treated me differntly once they found out that I'm engaged. Specifically, they seemed to include me less in the team.
I feel like in some circles there's an idea that a woman allows herself to be "tied down" rather than making a huge, life-changing decision. I think that being a feminist is about a belief. A stay-at-home mom can be, in my eyes, an empowered woman and a feminist. It's all about how we chose to live.
Has anyone else encountered anything like this? Any changed in the way people see or treat you since he put a ring on it? Any changes in the way you see yourself or others?
That didn't happen when I was engaged (because I was in Colombia), but it definitely happened when I became pregnant. I guess some women figure that you can't become a mother and still empower yourself. Isn't it about having the choice??
Well there are different types of feminism that are basically at odds with each other. The first one is the essentialist point of view, which aims to recognize that there is a difference between men and women, and empower women using that difference. That seems to be what you are. The more prevalent version, however, is the constructivist point of view, which basically says that the differences between men and women are created by society, and aside from different sexual functions, there really should be no differences. The differences come from what we call the sexes, our expectations of the genders, etc...
I personally share your point of view though!
I've found that there are definitely some anti-marriage people on my campus, especially because I'm taking an LGBT Psych class which is cross-listed under our Women's and Gender Studies major, so it's about half Psych majors and half Women's Studies majors. But the people I've come across haven't seemed to treat me differently for being engaged, they just don't think it's right for them.
I think you're always going to get those really opinionated people who think that what's right for them is right for everyone. But obviously that's not the case, and a marriage is what you make it, no matter what it once was as an institution.
Actually all of the feminists I know are in serious long term relationships or married so nope!
I've found being a married person makes everyone take you more seriously - which is unfortunate IMO. Married status should not make people think you are more responsible or treat you better.
jsisbride,
You're right that they are different approaches to feminism but I don't think they break down along lines of happy/unhappy for other people's marriages. Most feminists I know do think that men and women are mostly alike (certainly more alike than not) and are still pleased when friends find life companions.
One thing that coule be going on is that feminism is about (in part) critiquing and examining the role society has for women and its limiting effects. When/If you see women choosing those limiting effects, women who you thought 'knew better' it can be painful. I agree that a stay at home mother can be a feminist but a stay at home mother that has made no arrangements for her financial security in case of divorce - after most divorces the woman is much much much worse off financially than the man - is a feminist whose financial security is dependant upon the man she married and maintaing the relationship with him a woman who has voluntarily put herself at a huge disadvantage power wise in her relationship. And while power struggles are not something good relationships have much neither do I think power is completely absent from relationship dynamics. There are stay at home moms I admire, absolutely but some choices that women make do make me sad.
Or it could just be that your friends are mostly single and so think that marriage will change how much time you have available for them and how much you have in common. I encourage you to show them you're still the same person!
This is interesting...I was a women's studies major in undergrad so I would um, definitely consider myself a feminist but I have yet to experience anyone else's negative opinions about my engagement...If anything, it's a struggle that I personally wrestle with in my mind, with little from the outside world having any influence.
Ultimately, feminism is about giving women the right to CHOOSE what they wish to do with their lives. The point is not to judge women for their choices, should it be about getting married, having children, etc, but to empower them to be able to make a choice based on what they WANT to do, not what is expected of them or what society deems is "correct."
I'm sorry you've had some negative experiences due to such a happy and joyous occasion in your life. I think sometimes, especially when people are heavily involved in a cause close to their heart, we lose perspective on things and are quick to judge without really stopping to think about our own personal philosophies...
Whooo, that was long and heavy subject matter for before 8:00 am!
@MightySaphire, I definitely didn't see that one coming! Most of the ladies I volunteer with talk about motherhood as being really empowering. I wonder if some of these different approaches are specific to different areas/groups.
@Arachna, I agree that stay-at-home mom's should make sure that they are financially secure. I was actually going to make that a qualification my OP, but it was already getting long.
So I'm getting a few ideas from this thread:
It could be an age-based issue. I know lots of other college brides have posted about people on campus making rude comments, so maybe it's just that some of these women are at that stage.
Or it might be a local thing. I know lots of the women in the group are very opinionated about things like non-hormonal birth control and natural birth too, so it could just be an anomaly.
@MichelleMyBell, I haven't experienced any of this myself. And like Miss Trail Mix says, it is more something I wrestle with in my own mind--I'm a professor who teaches/studies gender and law and is cross-listed in both Political Science and Gender Studies. It sounds like the community in which you find yourself right now has a very narrow view of what an "authentic" feminist experience might be, but many of us share your view that feminism is about being able to make one's on choices and that, even within a constructivist view, there are lots of variations on what it means to seek and achieve gender equality.
It's all about choices, and how you operate within those choices (vague much? lol).
I chose to be a wife and stay-at-home mom and, it's taken me some time, but I'm starting to hit my stride.
I started my own business, I do volunteer and charity work, and I've gotten somewhat involved in local politics. My lifestyle affords me some flexibility--a few hours here and there--to really make a difference.
My husband gave me one of the best compliments of my life the other day. He said, "I just complain about things. You actually do something about it."
Meanwhile, I'm raising three kids, and teaching them to love and respect and find joy in life.
Someone will always find fault in your choices; but I'm confident in mine. My choices make me happy, and they empower me to be strong and help others; in fact, I'm *more* confident in my choices now than I ever was when I was single and supporting myself. I'm stronger and make more of a difference now than I ever did.
Everything's what you make of it. :)
I'm glad to see that my experience isn't the norm everywhere. I wouldn't say that it really bothers me to have people react like this (I know that there will always be someone who is against anything), I was just taken off guard. I know FI has taken some ribbing from his friends about the "ball and chain" but I'm not used to women pushing that idea. I guess that's my own sexism, thinking women would react differently 
I like your view of feminism. It's up to women like us to show that smart women are equals regardless of whether or not they are married, have kids, work outside the home, etc.
Yes i would consider my self feminist but not an exstreme. Well the other day a girl that is exstreme came up to me and said dont you find it degrading that you are taking a mans last name. I was like no I like the idea and yeah she went on and on and I was like wow.
I completely agree that feminism is about choice. To say that you have to be a bra-burning, man-hating, anti-marriage, career-oriented woman in order to be a feminist is just as bad as saying that you have to be a subservient, obedient, barefoot and pregnant homemaker to be a "traditional woman" (qualities exagerrated to make a point). Both of those extremes force certain behaviors upon women, which is the antithesis of the kind of feminism I espouse, where a woman can choose who she wants to be.
I've run into a few women who view feminism more as anti-man-ism rather than as a women's choice. I told one friend that when I have kids I will probably stay home with them when they are young, and she failed to see how this could be a valid feminist choice. According to her I was going backward against all the women's rights movement had ever fought for, whereas I feel that they fought for me to be able to decide for myself how to balance work and child-raising.
I think the women at your volunteer place are responding negatively to your engagement/marriage because their own preconceptions about men are being colored by your work at Take Back the Night. If you work in a climate where men are seen as the perpetrators of violence and abuse, then you might start to think of all men as potential assaulters and any woman associating with one as complicit with their abuses. You also develop an "us versus them" attitude, where the "us" is women and the "them" is men. You are therefore now associating with the enemy. If they haven't met your fiance then they are even more able to make negative assumptions about him. Obviously your fiance is not one of the problem people, but I think in the absense of knowing the real person their attitudes are bleeding over from their volunteer work into regular life. I'm sorry this is happening to you! Maybe if they get a chance to meet your fiance or spend a little time with him they will come around.
I agree that feminism is about choice. It is something I struggle with though because I choose to live my life in a somewhat traditional manner... I have to remind myself that it IS choice. I make my FI's lunch every day, and I make dinner every night. I don't think he's made himself a meal since we've moved in together come to think of it... except the one night I was going out with friends and left food in the fridge for him with a note on how to heat it up properly :) I also do all of our laundry. There are moments where I feel like wow.. this really sucks! But then I remember that he takes care of the trash, and he shovels all the snow, he'll mow the lawn, and he does all the messy things for me that I don't want to do.... so yea, we live in our "traditional" roles but its by our choice. I would rather cook then shovel snow. I'd rather do the wash than take care of the trash.
In terms of how people view me... I think I'm seen as a bit more mature now maybe? I'm relatively young (25) and I look it, and I'm in a very professional industry (law) that has a LOT of older men in it. 95% of my interactions are with men who are 50+. I do feel that once I got that ring on my finger they saw me as a little older, more mature, and more capable. Is it right? No... but its life I guess.
I have certainly experienced this at my college. It's like I had to turn in my feminist card! I think there is a lot tied to it... marriage inequality for one, that I am gleefully partaking in a cultural ritual and legal privilege that the LGBT community cannot, and that makes me a bad feminist/ally/liberal. Also, since I am 22 and have not yet been totally financially independent or started my own career, there's a bit of backlash about that because it resembles the traditional model of women being financially dependent on their husbands. It's disappointing that women often limit themselves in the name of empowerment. Why can't I be married AND embark upon a career and financial independence? I think having a loving, supportive partner just makes that journey easier! But I always have to explain that to feminists who sort of raise their eyebrows at my choice.
While the majority of people were supporters I definately got lots of comments, even though most of the professors are married. From them (ok not the women professors) it was more of an eye roll like oh I thought people were over that. And oh just wait until you're down each others throats, always sort of joking but negative. Whereas I didn't really hear negative comments from guys my age (late 20s) but from some girls I'd here why would you get married?! You already live together, why do you need a piece of paper, it's such a waste of money, you're just feeding into an industry, think for yourself and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I just said we feel if we're entering into a lifelong committment it's right to ask for the blessing of our family and friends and celebrate that committment.
@arachna:
First off I think you're correct that it could be criticized from either point of view of feminism. I was trying to say was that constructivist feministssee both the bride and groom as completely the samep- mothers and fathers as the same parent, for example- are more likely to dislike things like the father/male figure giving away a bride, the bride's family hosting to give her away tradition, the being introduced by Mr & Mrs His name, etc, but those critiques could come from either. But really, nice insight! I learn something new from you Bees everyday! :)
Am I going to stand alone as believing feminism isn't, at it's core, about choice?
IMO, personal feminism (not political, legal, religious, etc.) is about striving to be an actualized human being against the confines of gender construction. Not all choices are equal, IMO, just because they are "freely" made. And I frankly question that many of us make that many truly free choices.
Back to the OP, I have faced shockingly little questioning from my female friends on our decision to marry. I think it is because of my FI, really. He's a very masculine man, but has major respect from our female friends because he is a pretty darn good feminist (except for the strip club thing...other story). I've met few guys so capable of having platonic, ungendered close relationships with women.
But I have had not-so-close friends whose decisions to marry I've personally really questioned for feminist reasons. I'm not a particularly confrontational person, never over personal matters, so I don't say things to people. But if asked, I would honestly share my opinion. It isn't so much marriage per se that I find troubling, it is when self-professed feminists are entering relationships with partners who are not feminists, and where the structures and dynamics of what they expect from marriage are unexamined.
Basically, I know too many happy, healthy, self-actualized feminists in good marriages to make categorical statements, and these women and their partners are my role models. But I know those marriages are hard work, because there is so much baggage we all carry from the patriarchy (ooh, now I'm getting goin!). It is a constant fight to maintain a feminist marriage. So, yes, I do really, really worry when I see a self-proclaimed feminist enter into a marriage with someone who doesn't value or won't engage in the work.
Okay, enough rant.
Thanks for sharing a different perspective, monitajb. That might be how these ladies view FI, because he doesn't volunteer actively or call himself a feminist, and if that's how they feel it would explain a lot. I don't worry about whether or not he calls himself a feminist, because he's never tried to impose any kind of gender roles (he moved in with me a year ago, and i haven't had to dust since, lol). I think it's too bad that people assume a man will be automatically be chauvinistic unless they are directly told otherwise.
@ MichelleMyBell
Honestly, I assume most people are low level racist, sexist, bigoted, xenophobic, etc., because it is SOOO much harder not to be. IMO, you have to do real, hard work to overcome the baggage of our racist, sexist, etc., society. And almost no one is perfect, I know I am not. I just think those are super common, entirely normal human failings, like sloth and greed. So if you think your coworkers are wrong to assume that your FI isn't a feminist, from their POV all they are assuming is that your FI is human and isn't one of the very few people who has successfully struggled against patriarchal baggage. Just to give you that perspective, I don't know your FI and can't say anything, except question why he wouldn't call himself a feminist.
For me I wouldn't worry much about labels, like you said he's never tried to force anything on you, and in my opinion actions are a lot more important than labels. When people have asked me about feminism I ask them to clarify because I don't know that women as competant decision makers is so novel it needs a label and often times labels have such bad connotations to them. I've never been on BC and gotten in so many discussions (aka being lectured by women who have found out saying we had the womens movement for a reason) about deciding to not take any. But it's my decision and I have lengthy reasons for my decision and I think things are moving in this direction that it's more about empowering women to make decisions for themselves and not any 'correct' decision but labels always worry me. I don't like cliques of people that say you're either with us or against us.
His behavior is in every way feminist. He doesn't call himself one because he doesn't actively support equality (like my volunteering), but he passively believes in equality. IMHO, that's stupid, but he's entitled to his own definition, so if he doesn't call himself a feminist that's fine by me.
@monitajb, I think you're totally right about stereotypes that are ingrained in us. It can be really hard to overcome the things that we've been brought up with. I know, probably more than anything, a lot of people that hold racial stereotypes. It's hard to imagine saying "My grandma is a racist!" because I know my grandma is a harmless old lady, but at the same time I know that she is. So I can see why people would assume it about sexism.
@ MichelleMyBell Meh, yeah, I can totally see what you mean about the label. Sounds like just an odd tick. I'm not like bviq, for example, as someone rejecting labels. But I know that streak exists, for reasons I really don't understand, but it is pretty prevalent.
And that is exactly what I meant, your example about grandma. I'm sure she is perfectly civil to all people, much less running around burning crosses. I firmly believe there are good people who are racists, sexists, bigots, etc., as in, most people.
Wow great thread! I have not encountered any stigma at all. I was actually in a feminist theory course when I got engaged, and everyone was really sweet & happy for me. I agree that feminism is about choices in a few ways. Yes, it's about supporting the choices women make, but it's also about expanding the range of options out there as choices for women. To me, this is the most important aspect of feminism on a political and personal level. For me, it's about creating more real-life options for more women that are not based on a masculine norm. (and i suppose opening up that masculine norm to those women who choose to embrace it).
As for feminist partners, I am marrying a man who is a feminist -- although he says he doens't feel worthy to take that title hahah. That was really important to me, and I do think it would be hard to live a fully empowered life while married to someone who did not embrace feminism. I can understand how some people might have a bad attitude towards that... but ultimately, feminism isn't about JUDGING women for their relationships, it's about working to make the world a better place for men and women. Because sexism is as much about men as it is about women.
I haven't experienced any negative response on my being a feminist and getting married ... but I will say that I have noticed some negative attitudes towards wives who sacrifice for their husbands, as in doing things "just for him" or "giving up" her career or whatever; example would be not working in order to raise a child or something like that. No judgements here, although I definitely don't plan on being a SAHM - if anyone stays at home to raise the kids it'll be FI :)
@ peanutlovespumpkin
Really glad you brought up the sacrifice thing. My FI and I are about to have (he doesn't know it yet ) a serious discussion about our finances. We have reversed gender norms in that area: I make about 50% more money and have little free time (slacking at work right now), he spends a ton and has much more free time!
But on the sacrificing, we are doing that in a reversed norms way as well. Basically, I am working with the goal of FI being able to scale down from full-time and retire early. The goal is for him to move to 80% when we have kids in 6-10 years (though I might do that as well during the earliest years), then keep scaling back. He has a disability and may lose mobility in old age, so I want him to enjoy himself and work on his health as he gets older.
Is this a non-feminist sacrifice? I'm basically taking on a typically masculine sacrifice.
@MichelleMyBelle, I love the points you made and totally agree with you!
I haven't come into a lot of contact w/ the type of feminist woman that is all anti marriage and such since college. The ones I did encounter, I got along great with, unless they started bashing my beliefs and desires to become a mother one day...and hopefully a stay at home mom. To the ones I did come across that thought being a mom and staying at home was less empowering, this was the story I gave them: My mom was 36 and pregnant with her 4th (unplanned) child. My dad traveled 5 days per week and was only home on the weekends. Add to this that my mom worked a part time job to help make ends meet. Needless to say, she had her hands full. She worked part time and already had 3 children being 5, 7, & 11 (I'm the oldest) At six months along, my mom went into early labor and had my brother very prematurely. For the first 12 months, it was touch and go and the likelyhood of him making it past the first year wasn't great. When he finally did come home from the hospital (3 months later) he was hooked up to heart monitors & breathing monitors that would go off every time his heart stopped or he stopped breathing. My family depended on my dad's job, so it's not like he could just stay home and help her. And when my brother was in the hospital, the other 3 of us kids were farmed out to family friends to take care of us. Through all of that, my mom was the glue of the family. I don't once remember her crying or breaking down or saying she couldn't handle it. She had the most amazing strength I have ever seen a human being have. What can be more empowering than that?
Being married and devoting your life to your family doesn't make you less of a feminist, just like having the desires to have a successful career doesn't make you less of a woman. Both are two truly noble aspirations.
@ dragonfly: I totally agree that being a stay at home mom/homemaker can be just as empowering as being a career woman; I think it's all about making the decision based on what's best for your family as a unit and acting as equal partners, rather than automatically taking on the pre-assigned gender roles. I've read some posts on here where I'm like "woah, that couple is definitely not feelin the feminism ...", it kinda bums me out...
JsDragonfly,
But if your mother hadn't been the main caretaker for the first three children, if she hadn't faced sexism in school, would she have had a job with an income that allowed your family to not depend on your dad's income? And then he could have stayed home to help out? Once the kids are gone what gives the main meaning to her life? Kids tend to grow up and want independance. And often once the kids are gone the SAHM ... takes it hard. Does this mean that all former SAHMs are miserable or something like that? No! Not at all. But it is a factor.
I think being the glue that holds a family together and managing the family should be as empowering as a good career. And if the person being that glue was 50% likely to be man or woman or mostly man than I think it would be as empowering because it would be as universally respected and compensated and structered for better fufillment. But today? I don't think it's as empowering, I think it's dangerous.
I respect SAHMs absolutely. My own mom has always been the glue for the family which is why everyone loves her most :). But I'm always aware of the what that cost her.
@ Arachna, can I say that I am always finding myself nodding along to your posts? And that you often say something smarter than me? Not that the bar for being smarter than me is super high....
@ Arachna: Re: your 2nd to last paragraph - I agree with your vision of how things would be in a perfect world, but how can we expect society to progress toward that goal to if women are afraid to choose to be a SAHM because it's "dangerous"? Isn't a woman who would rather be a SAHM but who feels like she must work outside the home for the sake of feminism just as oppressed as a woman who feels like she must live out the gendered role of being a SAHM even though she doesn't want to?
In my view, the ultimate goal is for work inside the home to be valued on the same scale as work outside of the home. Our society currently devalues the work of primary caregivers, which harms both women and men. I took a course on Feminist Legal Theory when I was in law school and the one of the forefronts of the feminist movement right now is trying to get the work of primary caregivers recognized as just as economically beneficial to our society as work outside of the home. If you had to replace a SAHM with hired workers, what would you end up paying? It's astounding, and some estimates are into the six figures. Does a SAHM have the same social cache as a doctor, lawyer, engineer or other professional who makes six figures? Absolutely not. And therein lies the injustice.
@ Ms.E, I can't answer for Arachna, but I think you raise fair points. For that woman, what I would personally advice her to be the SAHM that she wants to be, but to engage it in a thoughtful way with her partner. In that sense, it is a lot like marriage or the wedding process we are all going through. Hear me out.
Taking on a traditionally gendered role, marriage itself, and the wedding are all things that are frought with patriarchal traditions and expectations. Chances are that if you go into any of them without examining the expectations and baggage, you will default to a patriarchal norm. Being a SAHM seems like the hardest of the three to do in a feminist way, but it isn't impossible. But it certainly starts with examination.
A few practical thoughts: decide what is important to you in the role, and give up the rest. Find a way to preserve financial independence, whether that means keeping career skills sharp through volunteering or even having your partner fund a trust for you. Demand respect and validation of your role in your family. Seek and prioritize personal fullfillment outside of your children and partner's success (a MUST). Refuse to allow yourself to become isolated in the home. Maintain a presence in your community.
So, I think it is doable, it isn't a betrayal of feminism, but it is hard work for both partners.
Ms.E,
I agree with a lot of that. However I make a distinction between what is good for feminism and what is good for an individual woman. I have made decisions that are not feminist and are maybe bad for feminism as a whole because that was best for me. So I would never tell a woman who is happiest being a SAHM and can afford it to not be one (though I would encourage her to devote time and effort to making sure she has an adult support network and participation in things like volunteering/charity for her mental health and happiness). I think every woman should prioritize her own happiness. However, I do think having many women being SAHMs is bad for feminism because I don't think the end goal we both want can be achieved until there is more parity between SAHMs and SAHDs. The work you mention is great and important but I don't think it has a chance of succeeding on its own - human beings are just not very progressive in that way - power is still a key thing and in today's society money is power. Don't get me wrong I think progress is being made and I hope to see a lot more in my lifetime.
monitajab,
I think being smarter than you would be a damn high bar.
@peanut and dragonfly - Personally empowering and politically or socially empowering are not the same thing.
Moreover, it is possible for a woman to make decisions that are not feminist. They may be best for her, for her family or her community but the fact that the choice to pursue a particular course of action is made by a person with two X chromosomes does not, ipso facto, render it feminist.
@Ms.E - I see your point, but would counter that, until we happen to live in a world where women are afraid to be SAHMs, that's not a legitimate reason to encourage them to be more conscious and conscientious in considering whether or not their interests or talents are best served in devoting two decades of life to child-rearing.
@ teaandtoast, I think in some communities we've already reached that point. I've considered the idea of being a SAHM when we eventually have kids, but I would be very hesitant to actually do it because of the flack I would take from my mother and my grandmother. So although they would be trying to promote my rights as a woman they would also be drawing from my right to make that choice as a person. Just food for thought.
@MichelleMyBell - Those communities, I would hazard, are in the minority. Nor is personal discomfort equivalent to having one's life choices circumscribed by a broad array of social and economic forces, many of them institutional.
That is, feeling uncomfortable that the decision to be a stay at home mom might meet with disapproval is not on par with being told that one will not be hired because one will later marry and have children, or being subjected to daily verbal or physcial harassment in the workplace because of one's gender.
Disapprobation and disempowerment often work together, but they aren't the same thing.
Michelle,
I do think there are communities that frown on SAHMS or at least SAHMS that don't have another acitivity outside raising the children after the first two years. I think there are communities where not having a thriving career is looked down upon - but I think that even in those communities the power difference between the men and women in that community is still far tilted in the men's favor. So I wouldn't think disaproval of SAHMs = equality. If we are talking about mature adults my first guess would be = classism. College students on the other hand tend to be a bit... extreme as they haven't yet had the time to digest their ideas and see all of the implications and best applications. But yes some such communities probably exist.
Also, your husband would certainly take flack if he stayed home and from more than just his father and grandfather, so even that is still not equal. Even in your community with your family's flack you are still the one society encourages to stay home over your husband.
I don't mean to say your family's disapproval is right. And I think if you made the choice thoughtfully and while protecting your interests and future (which I think you would do from your comments here) and explained it all to your family they would support you.
I think this is why I worry about the label of feminsim. I'm in a field, academic bio science, where a lot of people consider themselves fairly liberal feminists, both men and women. Despite that and despite that more women are entering and finishing grad school, there is an absolute drop off in the number of women who become PIs (director of your own lab). I've seen it happening to the women around me already, that choice between having babies and leaving a career track to have your own lab or waiting until you have your own lab to have babies. Lets just say it leaves very few women with labs (and fewer still that have labs and kids). In my deparment (majority men), all the men are married with kids, all the women are single without kids, sorry that just seems a bit biased.
So I'm very much of the opinion that we are failing by saying oh well just treat men and women the same. There needs to be options for women when they get pregnant to be able to continue working and not fall behind but also deal with new motherhood. Equal doesn't always cut it when men and women aren't the same, and the choices aren't there right now for women at all stages to be able to have kids.
I'm not sure if this falls in the same category, but I get treated pretty poorly by a lot of women... although I consider myself a feminist and have spent a lot of my career attempting to help and empower women.
Now I just give a wide birth to discussions about feminism, childbirth, gender and marriage... it's dangerous territory, at least in my experience!
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