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I guess there are two ways to look at it: the property perspective and the part of the Bible where it says that you'll leave your father and mother and be united. Since we are past the point of women actually being considered proprty, I would not think that anyone gets the impression from this that your father owns you in any way and is giving the responsibility to your FH.
However, I see your point. I am a sucker for tradition to an extent. So, I will be having this. It's not because I am not independent of my parents, because I already am. However, it is a father thing. Have you thought about how your dad would feel having this part taken away from him? I mean, he could be totally cool with it. But you might want to consider talking to him about it.
I don't think there are necessarily strong religious ties to it, as the groom would have a similar transaction in the wedding if there were, but I also know that guests do not assume your father owns you because he is "giving you away." In the end, it's your choice, but I would definitely consider talking to your dad about it and making a choice based not on others knowing the root of the tradition.
I don't know of any religious aspect to it, but I will say I feel the same way about the meaning behind it, but still chose to do it for my own wedding. My dad is not super traditional either, but I knew it would still mean a lot to him. I really enjoyed having him stand with me before and then walk me down the aisle. Also, we have amazing pictures as we're standing and waiting that I wouldn't trade for anything.
It's really a personal decision and I definitely get where you're coming from. Have you talked to your dad about it though? How does he feel? For me, I just think it's better to go along with a silly tradition if it means a lot to someone you love than to try to make a statement. Just my 2 cents.
I don't think it has to mean property, but if you feel that way, you shouldn't do it! I'm not sure it's specific to Christianity....I had *both parents walk me down the aisle, then I had them modify what was said to them, where it was more of them acknowledging our union, rather than 'giving me' in their response. In fact, it was similarly worded to the blessing off the entire 'congregational response' however you say that. My family who met in seminary did this, so I don't think that is anti-Christian by any means!
If you decide to do it after all, let me know if you want the wording...I'm not sure if I have it, but could get it on my video,lol.
I would take issue with a number of things your friend said, first and foremost the idea that feminism and faith are mutually exclusive.
I hate the tradition, because it's based in the tradition and former law that a woman was the property of her father before she was given to her husband, again virtually as property.
The Anglican church (I seem to be talking a lot about the Anglican liturgy today) has developed a solution to this -- 'giving away' is no longer part of the core marriage ceremony but people can opt for it, or for an alternative form which my brother and his wife used. We're planning to use it, too. It reads:
N and N have declared their intention towards each other.
As their parents, will you now entrust your son and daughter to one another as they come to be married?
And the parents respond 'we will'.
It gets around the inherent sexism of a woman being 'given' to her husband, but still includes the importance of parental support for the marriage, which I like.
Sorry - to clarify - the plan is: My dad will walk me down the aisle (yes, it means a lot to him, so we'll most likely end up doing that, even though I'd much rather J and I come down the aisle together), and then at the front, the pastor will ask "Who offers their blessing on this union" instead of "Who gives this woman" or whatever the normal thing is. Then both of my parents, and both of J's parents, will say "We do" or "We offer our blessing on this marriage" or something like that.
So my dad WILL be walking me down, just not 'giving me away' exactly - which I told my friend, and thus got the "if you were an athiest..." comment.
That is a GREAT compromise. I love it. Perfect alternative wonderlanded. Maybe this will now become the new tradition.
wow, then I feel that comment is REALLY unwarranted...sometimes I think people associate Christianity w/ other traditionalism that has nothing to do w/ Christianity...not that I'm a Christian history expert, but I feel like the Bible is often used against people when that wasn't the main point of the Bible ;)
Just to be safe, I'd let your parents know what do expect, but I don't see why she is concerned and being (what seems like) flippant about it...maybe she didn't think it through before she said it and was really only expressing her preference, which people tend to do a lot when discussing other peoples' weddings for some reason!
@daydreamwanderer, I think your friend is flat out wrong. Different churches will have different views on this, but given that your parents are giving their blessing to your marriage as part of the service, you are respecting religious tradition without going through rituals based on centuries-old liturgy that have no basis in current laws or the reality of most marriages.
I agree with Jelly bean... no one will assume that your father owns you. I think it is a great sign on respect and love for you dad to have him involved in that way. My dad teared up when I asked him to walk me down the aisle.. we haven't always had the greatest relationship so it is really special. I think of it more as symbolism of going from my family to starting one with my hubby.
I think my concern about what you are saying is your veiw on roles in the relationship.. I am not really sure what being a feminist means. But man and woman were created for different roles.. and whether we like it or not the guy is meant to lead. (wife submit to your husbands) ... now before anyone starts biting my head off. .. . this has been abused!!!! Soooo many men have abused the leading role into power trips and controlling ways - God did not intend this. But we have abused our part too... I see a lot of woman who are controlling and unwilling to let the man lead. This has turned too many men into passive guys who let their wives do everything for them. Which is backwards acording to the bible.
Like I said before ... if the male leading is controlling and abusive... leave - you are better than that and God never inteaded for anyone to be in a relationship that is abusive.. (probably not relating to you daydreamweaver) but incase anyone else reads this.
In Genesis 12:18 when the woman is created the bible says that is was not good for man to be alone so God created a "helper" for him. This word "helper" in the hebrew is "ezer" which means a counterpart someone who will meet our needs.
My suggestion is to read about it.. get into the bible and pray about it.. See what God thinks. And look in other books.. "For women only" and "captivating" are great ones.
I would love to hear thoughts on what being a feminist really means .. :)
@Rebekah - I'll PM you tomorrow when I have more time, but I want to stress that this thread is REALLY not meant to be a commentary on feminism, because I recognize that small word encapsulates a lot of things for a lot of people.
I am quite familiar with what the Bible says about leadership and gender roles, and quite comfortable with what the Bible teaches, when it is not taken out of context. But like I said, I'll PM you to set your heart at ease tomorrow. :)
Regardless of whether my guests will 'assume', J and I are both uncomfortable with the history behind the tradition of giving the bride away. Just like I don't stand before empty, idle words religiously (instead my beliefs are based on years of exploration, wrestling and studying the Word), I won't idly place phraseology or 'tradition' in my wedding. The history and significance behind traditions like this one are important, and I don't think the blase idea that 'it's just how everyone does it' is a good reason to include them, if that makes sense.
I appreciate your input, and your concern, but my question was never about whether or not I should include this tradition - it was simply whether there was a reason, in Church history (because I already know it's not in the Bible), that I was missing for this tradition, since I'd never heard one, and was a little confused by my friend's comment.
@RedeemedRebekah: A quick dictionary search tells me that feminism is defined as "the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men."
I consider myself a feminist and that's pretty much what it means to me. Women and men should be equal in all aspects of life. Women should have control over their rights, minds, bodies, lives, etc. as they see fit. I personally do not agree with the notion that men and women were created for "different roles", men should lead, wives should submit to their husbands. My future husband and I will have equal roles and will be on the same level and if he didn't agree with this, we wouldn't be getting married.
As for the discussion re: father giving you away, I'm in agreement with daydream. Pretty much my dad will be walking me down the aisle but I will be scratching any talk of him "giving me away"/"giving this woman", etc. Although I know it's important to both me and my dad that he walks me down the aisle, I'm not his (or anyone's!) to give.
Redeemed Rebekah, I will be the first to go ahead and say that I agree with you. My whole life, though, I grew up in a church where men sought to abuse this relationship that God did not intend to be a lordship. So, I was very set against having any man for any reason taking care of me. I almost went against wanting to get married. I didn't want to have someone who thought they were controlling me because of how they would like to read the Bible.
It took a few years (for some reason) to look at my own family. My father, in no way, rules my mother. My mother, in NO way, tramples over my father. They are completely equal in their own right. She is good at leading in some areas, and my dad is good in others. I'm certain there are times where my dad has had the final say in things for my family, because that is his role, but their final decisions were always presented as a united front, like what daydreamwanderer is alluding too.
I was nervous when premarital counseling came around, because I didn't actually want to have a fight with the pastor over what I was afraid would come out - that FH is the leader of the house and I am to serve him, which is what I grew up with. But quite the opposite heppened. He read the Bible in an appropriate way and showed us how we are the equalizer of each other. We must serve and love each other equally and still be able to honor the Bible's definitions of husband and wife as well.
Such a relief. With that being said, I hate to say it, but your friend is out of line. It could be the way she interpret's the Bible or the way she was raised. In the end, the Bible is clear about a marriage, and feminism has many levels and definitions.
Sometimes other Christians can REALLY weird me out. I also consider myself a mild feminist/egalitarian and WOW...marriage and weddings really bring out the crazy theology in people...I echo all the other "your friend was out of line" comments.
I am not christian, but my husband is devout Catholic and we got married in a Catholic church by the Catholic priest. For what its worth, they told my husband and I during our discussions of how the ceremony would progress that the "giving away" tradition is cultural, not religious. They told us that they prefer not to have a giving away of the bride, as they view the sacrament of marriage as a coming together of two individuals freely.
We both took part in the processional. My husband was escorted by both of his parents, and I was escorted by both of mine. We were advised by the two Catholic churches we worked with (his home town church and the church where we got married in my hometown) that this was a way to symbolize two families uniting. No giving away or exchanging of property in sight!
So I wouldn't say that this is a mandatory part to a truly Christian ceremony.
edit: I would also like to mention that, while I agree men and women are created or evolved into different roles, I absolutely do NOT agree that men are meant to lead. I'm sorry but that is just... well I'm just not going to go there.
Actually my dad is the one who insisted that he refused to say he was giving me away. He said the he will agree to Who presents this bride or Do you FOB and MOB support this marriage.
Your friend was over the line on this one.
My dad walked me down the aisle, gave me a kiss and shook my husbands hand. No words were exchanged but sometimes actions speak plenty loud. I think it was a touching show to demonstrate that the families are happy and accepting of the marriage. My husband's mom walked my husband down the aisle. And my husband's dad walked my mom and grandmom down the aisle.
I've never heard anything like what your friend was saying, so I can't comment much on that, except to say I go to church and have been to weddings and never heard anyone complain, including pastors and priests if the 'give this woman' was not included. We actually didn't even think of doing it, I just hadn't seen it done except in movies, it wasn't brought up by the priest and so we went on a handshake and a kiss.
Your friend was way out of line!
I think your approach - having your father walk you down the aisle, but cutting the "gives" language - is a lovely way to ensure that your parents are honored without compromising your beliefs.
Woah, friend needed to shut her trap on that one...Being handed off by your father does not make/or break you of being a good Christian.
I understand completely how it can feel like old-fashioned property exchange. But we're going ahead and including it in our ceremony (umm, not cause we're Christian and it's a "must" or whatever your friend is tryign to say), but because I feel my dad did such a wonderful job raising me with my mother and he also told my FI when he asked for my hand that he is to keep me in the same manner I'm accustomed to (i.e. spoiled rotten!) and it just feels appropriate for "the handing down of the spoiled princess", haha!
I think this comes down to how literally you interpret the Bible. Are you going to follow all the rules in Leviticus? Or, do you follow the spirit of the Bible and realize SOME of it is cultural context. (Just look how widows used to be treated OR, do you want to marry your hubby's brother if your hubby dies...sorry, but that one cracks me up!)
My husband hates to plan, and I am a certified project manager...so, I dont' think me taking the lead is against Christian guidelines or trampling on him...it works best for both of us, just like, when my hubby is better at something, I have NO problem with him taking the lead.
Unfortunately, there are always those ready to critique you, your wedding and even your relationship, but if you and your hubby & are right w/ each other and with God, so unfortunately this might not be the last time you deal w/ this...for example, my church coordinator didn't really help me at all, mostly criticized things like putting my parents in the 2nd row, so that while they were serving communion, my BMs could sit in the 1st row for a few minutes....anywho, pray about it then ignore the naysayers. God Bless your upcoming union!
I think your wording and everything sounds great! I'm sure your dad will appreciate still being a part of your wedding.
I'm an Orthodox Christian and a strong feminist, and I most certainly dislike the custom of 'giving the bride away.' The name itself is quite offensive. I may have someone walk me down the aisle (my uncle since my father has passed away), but he has no authority to transfer me as property to my future husband (and it fact, this custom does come from that view that the woman is property). In fact, if I were just having an Orthodox wedding, I wouldn't have to worry about this issue because the priest walks with the bride and groom without parents. However, my family is Protestant, so the Canadian wedding will be a somewhat Protestant service with all of the North American traditions. So no, it is most certainly not a 'Christian' tradition, it is a tradition that has often been used in Western Christian wedding services. There's a big difference.
I think that your way of incorporating you father into the service is a good compromise of your beliefs and you wanting to honour your parents. I do however think that there's tons of other ways brides (and grooms) can honour their parents (or parents can bless their marriage) if they do not want to incorporate this custom at all.
@daydream...I think what you are doing is just fine. Your father can't "give you away" but both you and your FI can ask for the blessings of BOTH sets of parents. I think it's a great compromise.
As far as Christianity goes...each persons views are definitely colored by what they have been taught as far as the Bible is concerned. I have always been taught that man should leave his parents and cleave to his wife...so shouldn't HIS parents be giving him away? Just saying..it's all about the interpretation. Another thing that my parents have taught me is that...yes a wife should submit to her husband, but a husband should also submit to his wife, and they both should submit to the will of God.
Your dad is walking you down the aisle and therefore all of the meaning between the two of you will be there...without the "giving away"...especially since you have been "away" for a while.
I think your friend was out of line. This sounds like an awesome compromise to me!
I haven't read the comments you've received yet - but if it hasn't already been said - I've seen/heard it consider to it symbolic of the covering and responsibility your father has over you (mainly a prayer covering) and how that is transferred to your husband. It's not a property type thing, but a responsibility thing - much like the whole 'submission' thing - it's not in a negative connotation that's so often implied. (PM me if you'd like to discuss more!)
Let me just point out that the conventions of wedding ceremonies today have evolved a lot over time and really have no connection to religious practices from the Bible and are actually connected to cultural practices, often pagan ones! I can't say where the giving away ritual began but I doubt it had much to do with religion. Also, remember that Jesus was Jewish and that Christianity is based in Judaism, and in Jewish weddings both the bride and groom are escorted by their parents.
All this to say that your friend is totally wrong. She wants you to conform to a cultural norm - it has nothing to do with faith. Just like people that take issue with brides not wearing white - that is a new tradition! Brides wore their regular clothes in Jesus' time!
Don't let her get to you.
I definitely think that was wrong of your friend to say. I think what you are doing is perfect.
On the contrary, I think that if you're a devout Christian, you would try to avoid pagan traditions like this. I learned about this tradition when I started reading about what practices are encouraged and discouraged in a traditional catholic wedding. Of course, some traditions now carry nice meanings but I would personally want to avoid anything that reminds me of how women are properties to be given away. It did not originate from the Christian church and has no basis in any Christian traditions. Check out some guidelines (under procession) and blog written about this "giving away" tradition.
Thank you all for your input, encouragement and reassurances that I'm not going crazy!
I know my friend didn't mean to be rude; I think she was caught off guard by my repulsion at the idea of being given away, and that she had no idea all of the history and connotation behind it.
There is a strong connection with the church because its been used in reigious weddings since the time of it actually meaning an exchange of property and forcing her down the aisle - but its not religiously based.
Being walked down the aisle and the veil are two beautiful traditions that have pretty terrible roots from biblical times. But no one thinks of that now, now its the part where your parents get to be directly involved and honored and thanked for raising you and the veil is just a bit of beauty and coyness not a hiding of the face.
I was right there with you in REALLY abhoring the basis of the tradition, but still wanted to give my dad that traditional moment. So he walked me down the aisle and when it came to "who gives this woman in marriage?" He responded "She gives herself freely, with our love and support". For us it was the perfect blend of independent feminism and loving family tradition.
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Beekeeper
I'm a pretty strong Christian, and my relationship with the Lord is paramount in my life; I am also a strong, independent woman, and some would say a feminist.
I have a good friend who shares my faith, who is also getting married, around the same time I am. We were discussing wedding ideas the other day, and I mentioned that I dislike and will not be using the "giving away the bride" (by the father) tradition. Her response surprised me - she said, "If you were just an unbelieving feminist, I could understand, but as a Christian I really think you need to include that tradition as part of honoring your parents." I was floored, and left stinging at how completely she dismissed me.
Aside from how much her comment hurt me on a personal level, is there a religious aspect to this tradition that I am unaware of?
I dislike it for all the 'typical' reasons: I am not property, my father/parents do not own me now, and my future husband will not own me after the wedding. There is no giving to be done. The choice is mine, not my parents', and while we will be asking for their blessing as a part of the ceremony, I do not see any modern cultural or religious relevance to asking their permission or in having them 'give' me to J. Our wedding will be about the two of us uniting in an equally, mutually beneficial marriage, under God, not about him taking over responsibility for me from my parents (of whom I have been financially and emotionally independent for nearly 10 years now).
Am I missing something on the religious side of things?