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My MOH's mother is a minister for a baptist church in town. She does the whole pre-marriage meetings to ask a couple those hard questions that the couple may never even discussed with each other.
Well, apparently she has had a few bad apples come through recently and meeting with them is actually stressing her out. So I was at her house last night visiting with my friend and the mom said, "I don't even know why some of them even try. That's the half that won't make it." I laughed and asked her what she meant and she said, "Marriage...half of you won't make it."
Debbie Downer right? I know no one wants to go into their marriage thinking that it won't work out, but maybe you should.
According to http://divorcerate.org/ (I don't know how legit this site is though) the highest percentage of divorced couples are all under 25. Is it age or is it not enough life exp. or not established enough in jobs where you end up having money issues very early on?
I came home and sat on the couch with Mr. Tattoo and asked him, "What would make us divorce?" he laughed and said that was a morbid subject since we aren't even married yet, but I was serious. What makes half of us make it and the other half fail?
In cases of abuse, constant cheating, and things like that, I see why those marriages end. I wouldn't call them failures, because you can't expect a woman to stay in a marriage when she's getting her ass beat every day.
So excluding those examples, what makes 50% of us fight and the other 50% give up?
I dont think there is any one thing that you can pinpoint that makes some people stay and others give up. Id be interested to know how many of the still married couples are 1) truly happy and 2) not just staying together for the kids/just becauase/religious beliefs/guilt.
And I dont think that at this point you can say "What will make us divorce" because hopefully the answer is "Nothing" (okay maybe cheating and definitely abuse). I think a lot of people fall out of love. I think kids change things. I think people have mid life crises in which they want to be on their own or dont know who they are any more. The best we can do is to wake up every morning, make the choice to be together and work really hard when things get tough.
I feel like a lot of it is the expectations before marriage don't live up to the reality after. A lot of people I think get married because they think it will fix problems. I'm sure that doesn't account for the 50% statistic completely but I'm sure it's part of it.
Some of this may or may not come from the book, Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts: definitely a good read!
I hate to say it, but I do think age is a large factor, but not the only one of course. In our society we are given so many choices, and sometimes those choices can pull a couple in different directions. If someone is young, they may be more likely to want to go off in a different direction; explore life's possibilities. I will be a 40 year-old first time bride when I marry (my FH will be a 41 year-old first time groom) and I know if I had married young, I probably would have gotten divorced by now. All that said, age isn't the only factor, and I'm not trying to make young brides's feel bad. In fact, my parents married when they were very young and were together for 40 years.
My FH and I sometimes joke that we are lucky that we are getting married so late, because by the time we get sick of eachother, we will both be too old to do anything about it!
When the wedding takes precedence over the marriage. In that, the woman is so anxious to have her princess day and ring on her finger that she forgets to think about the marriage. She (or he) forgets to ask themselves "Am I truly compatible with this person?" or "Am I ignoring any red flags?".
The 50% divorce rate isn't really entirely accurate. For example, for college educated couples, the divorce rate is more like 20-25% (I've seen this stat numerous places before - trying to re-find a source for it). The 50% rate truely only applies to certain groups of individuals but it is thrown around like it applies accross the board (I guess as a scare tactic?).
That said, I think most marriages fail due to a lack of commnication - be it about money, stress, children, lack of intimacy, etc. People don't communicate about these things and then resentment builds up and eventually explodes.
Here's an interesting article from the New York Times about the misleading divorce rates that are thrown around: http://www.weddingplanningonabudget.com/Doc/NYT-DivorceRates.pdf
@Leahhh: That is a great book - and I agree. I have always thought that unrealistic expectations play a huge role in marriages working out and satisfaction along the way.
divorce rates have gone up because people are lazy... okay NOT ALL divorces are caused by this. but it's a contributing factor...
people think that marriage is easy and the relationship will be easier to maintain after the wedding. and when things get difficult... they are lazy. instead of working hard to make it work, they decide it must not be meant to be.
they aren't just lazy about the relationship after it's formed... people are lazy about their decisions. because it's so easy to get a divorce nowadays, people don't put as much thought and weight into their decisions because marriage isn't seen as a permanent committment anymore.
like i said... this isn't for all marriages and divorces... but i'm pretty sure it's a contributing factor to the rise in the divorce rate.
@Mrs.KMM: I DEFINITELY agree that lack of communication is a HUGE factor. I know for my parents divorce it was.
Emotional immaturity, lack of communication skills, not being upfront about expectations going into a marriage, getting married for the wrong reasons, addictions, money issues, etc are what I think cause divorce.
I don't think it is a coincidence that the highest educated, older, better off financially cohort is the one doing the best at marriage.
@PitBulLover: I asked his grandmother the other week if she had any advice since they just celebrated their 40th anniversary. The first thing she said, "You will fall out of love with him sometimes and sometimes you will plot to kill him, but then he will go on and have a glass of wine waiting for you after work or puts the dishes away. Sometimes there will be a towel waiting for you after you get out of the shower. It's those little things that I appreciate and make me realize not only did I marry for love, I married for friendship, and companionship."
It reminds me of that St. Augustine quote:
Love is a temporary madness. It erupts like an earthquake and then subsides. And when it subsides you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots have become so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion. That is just being “in love” which any of us can convince ourselves we are.
Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away, and this is both an art and a fortunate accident. Your mother and I had it, we had roots that grew towards each other underground, and when all the pretty blossom had fallen from our branches we found that we were one tree and not two.
I think all too often marriage makes one party change for the worse and the other party doesn't change for the better. If you man is a slob and doesn't like to clean he's not going to improve any after marriage. If your man isn't a romantic type in the dating world what makes you think he's going to become prince charming after? Things like that.
@Mrs.KMM: So true!
50% divorce rate is true in some populations, but it is not a national average or anything (nevermind international!). If you get married under age 25, if your parents are divorced, if you have children already, and/or if you have less education, you are more likely to end up divorced. I am not knocking on anyone in these groups, and I am certainly not saying you're doomed. But research that I do not care to look up at this point but you can probably find if you are so inclined has shown those groups have the higher rates.
I've also mentioned "sliding v. deciding" here before. Researchers have found that couples who end up getting married due to relationship momentum are more likely to get divorced later than those who made conscious decisions for ever step of the way. This is why cohabiters have a higher rate of divorce. People end up living together because it seems like the next step or because you end up that way, and what's next? Get married! But often couples are caught up in the trajectory without thoroughly evaluating what it will mean in the end.
Also, there has been some interesting stuff done on communication style. Studies have interviewed couples and predicted which would stay together and which would not, and upon followup years later, they had like an 80% accuracy rate of their predictions! Couples who talk about each other positively or who reflect on their relationship in positive terms stay together. Sounds pretty simple, but yeah, you have to forgive and forget!
Even though I was extremely mature for my age, I wasn't "me" when I was in my early 20s. I was still figuring out who I was and what was important to me (heck, I changed political parties when I was about 27!).
Obviously, there are happy people who got married young, but if someone isn't flexible and open to the evolution of their partner, I could see things getting pretty rocky during big periods of change.
@Miss Tattoo: I like what your grandmother said. Love is so much more than being in love (like the quote you posted says - awesome btw) and you have to recognize that not every moment is going to be romantic and rainbows and butterflies and some days you are going to want to strangle that person and that's okay! I think a lot of people have this expectation that marriage means being in love for the rest of your life and I think thats not true. You can have moments of that, but you arent going to feel love sick every moment of every day. Marriage is about having a best friend and a partner.
@Miss Tattoo: I like that. It doesn't sound like Augustine...but heck, it's been about a decade since I had to read Confessions in college. Where did you find that quote? I'd love to read more!!!
EDIT: Googled it. It's from a book, but it is sometimes attributed to Augustine.
I wonder in general about that statistic. Is it 50% of marriages OR 50% of first time marriages. I think that really changes the meaning of the stat. I feel (though haven't researched it) that if you get divorced once you are more likely to do it again (thus adding to the 50% divorce rate)
I would like to say nothing would make me get divorced (and right now certainly nothing will), but we're young, financially stable and without kids so it is easy to make that declaration today. We are lucky enough that we haven't had to work hard at our relationship yet.
@Jeannine @ Small Chic: Some say it's not Augustine and it's Captain Corelli's Mandolin by Louis de Bernières.
ETA: lol you beat me to it.
@Mrs.KMM: I agree. Communication is key. You have to communicate about everything, constantly.
Not rushing into marriage - you need to make sure you know your partner 100% before committing to something as big as marriage. I had a counselor tell me that you should be with a person for all 4 seasons - after a year a person's true identity should be known.
Watch out for red flags & listen to your gut (and close friends) in the beginning. My mom married a drinker, it's not surprising she divorced my dad because of that.
And, I think above all (if you are in a healthy relationship) being committed to each other. Knowing that you will have good times and bad times, and being willing to work through the tough times together. I don't know, maybe people give up too easily, but marriage is hard work. It's worth it though :) (I feel like I'm already married - been with my FI for almost 6 years/living together for almost 5 years/moved across the country twice together).
@Miss Tattoo: I love what your grandmother said...I think it's so true to marriage. It's NOT all rainbows and butterflies all the time. People disagree, life throws things at you, sometimes you don't feel your best, etc. But in the end, marriage is about working through things, communicating, and being each other's supporter and best friend!
My fiance and I talk about this all the time, especially because our priest would throw around the 50% statistic when we would meet with him. I should preface, my fiance is a psychologist, so he finds statistics fascinating.
The divorce rate overall is going down and while he has quoted me the numbers, I cannot think of them off the top of my head. Education and socioeconomic status make a difference as well as age of marriage. The difference between alot of marriages now and marriages that led to high divorce rates are the reasons behind getting married. People are waiting longer and therefore are able to have an established career path, complete their education, and figure out who they are individually before they have to figure out who they are as a duo. People are also not using financial security, unplanned pregnancy, etc as often as reasons to get married. The cohabitiation statistic is also misleading.
I think it is fascinating as well as I also have an interest in the sociological factors associated with marriage and divorce.
I know that we've seen this statistic come up often both in and out of the 'bee. And I wonder how truly accurate it is...
Regardless, just as a general thought to those who "make it" and those whose marriages end in divorce (elsewise from beating/cheating/extremes); I agree with PP's who have stated that Communication, Trust, and Commitment are the key to making it through all of life's highs and lows together.
From what I have read from separated/divorced friends/bloggers/women, they say that it's not the "wedding" or "marriage" that brings on new problems; but wedding/marriage sheds light on issues that have probably been there for a while prior to the actual marriage.
With all of that in mind, I try to be conscious of the fact that I may not like my husband every day, but there is no one else that I'd go through the bad with than DH, and am committed to working as a team through all of life's ups and downs.
I think you bring up some really good points and it is def. something that every couple should explore prior to marriage. However, just an FYI, many statisticians say that that statistic (half don't make it) is based on a gross miscalculation and that it is more like 25-30% of marriages that end in divorce. The reason for the miscalculation is that it is very hard to measure marriages to divorce since marriages are constantly occuring and so are divorces (where is the cut off? how many people who got married in a given year v how many marriages from that year end in divorce?) That said, divorce has certainly increased over the years and many factors (age, educational attainment, geographic location) seem to impact the likelihood that a given couple will get divorced.
I think life experiences and money and of course, like Leahhh said- definitely expectations.
And as a PP said, see someone through ALL the seasons.
I didn't read the responses b/c of time purposes (will def read later) but I think it's pretty simple....
I think that generationally, those under the age of 25, moreso than above, have grown up with a very selfish entitlement and really feel that it's no big thing to leave/give something up that's hard as opposed to work for it.
I see it in everything from jobs, to any and all types of relationships, that young people, especially, think that their "feelings", how they were "treated", and what they aren't "getting" is more important than the part that they played in getting the relationship/job circumstance where it is currently.
I mean if someone can't even keep friendships b/c they don't want to deal with and workout small tiffs then how in the world are they going to stay and work out things that have really caused emotional hurt (since those closest to us.. husbands/wives... are the ones that "hurt" us most).
Some of the best advice I've ever received is
"There is no place for selfishness is marriage"
Simple but extrardinarily profound.
ETA: I've seen these problems and situations in older adults with lots of age and lots of experience as well.... when it comes down to it it's about choosing that what you "think" you should be getting is not the driving point/foundation/condition to the work you're going to put into it.
I think a lot of people have the attitude, "When it gets hard or I'm not 'getting anything' out of my marriage... then it's not worth it." But if you go into it with the decision to be committed even when you don't *feel* like it, then maybe you'll be more likely to fight for it?
It's funny being engaged...even my married friends are like, "marriage is sooo hard sometimes, it really shows you how selfish of a person you are!" and being engaged even, and being this close and emotionaly intimate to another person sometimes is so hard, like when i'm thinking, "I'm offended and hurting right now, and all I want to do is give him the cold shoulder." but really what is most needed at the moment is for me to be selfLESS and humble and be like, "well, i need to find out what he is thinking, and tell him i love him." just shows me how selfish/prideful I am *inclined* to be! I can only imagine that marriage will make us even more intimate and vulnerable, and therfore show us our pride and selfishness even more!
Another thing that causes divorce is the fact many men and women think they can change their "chosen mate". When that doesn't happen, they get angry and decide that if they can't change the person to be what THEY want the person to be like, they leave.
For each person, the reasons that would make the couple split varies. My FI and I have said, bluntly, what would make each of us leave the other. Personally, I think it's a good idea to know, so you'll know where you stand and what choices to NOT make that you, otherwise, wouldn't think about.
Age, immaturity, communication (or lack there of), wanting to change the person to fit your view of what the person should be life, wanting the IDEA of being married, the IDEA of being in love (vs actual marriage/love), money, not knowing what you want in life, not knowing if what you're feeling is love or lust, and wanting someone to rescue you (knight in shining armor syndrome). Those are all reasons people get divorced.
WHY do some people stay married and/or fight for it? Fear of being alone. Fear of the unknown. Not having a job for x-many years due to children/whatever reason. The money the spouse has (money, btw, is a very big reason people commit murder...just sayin'). Comfort of living. The "title" the spouse has (rock star, movie star, writer, sports star, etc).
Then, there's those who truly love each other and fight to make it work because they don't want to loose the person they love no matter what crosses their path.
As someone I love once said: True love makes one stronger, not weaker.
Being that I am divorced I have a strong belief as to why divorces happen...
1. Age and Maturity....Those to me are the biggest issues. I got married when I was 19yrs old and wasn't at all sure of who I was. I was in love with the idea of being married to him. I ignored the fact that he had cheated and that he and I weren't really compatable. My big thing was that we had been together since I was 16yrs old so that had to mean that we were supposed to get married. Things would get better once we were married. That's a load of crap and now that it's been 10years since I was first married I know this.
2. Realistic expectations.....if you are having money issues before what makes you think they are going to magically disappear once you say I DO? Communication issues aren't going to magically get better either just because you say those two words.
It's all a matter of being sure of who you are as a person, who you want to be with. Know what you are looking for in a partner. If you aren't sure of who you are and don't love yourself how are you going to be able to love someone else completely?
I will forever have the opinion that marrying young is for the most part a mistake. There will always be exceptions to that rule but from personal experience that's how I feel.
MY GRANDMOTHER HAD 5 DAUGHTERS, AND ALL THEIR MARRIAGES FAILED INCLUDING HERS, AND MY MOTHERS. EACH HAD THEIR OWN REASONS, ADDICTION ABUSE, TOO YOUNG, AND JUST PALIN GETTING MARRIED FOR THE WORNG REASONS. SOME WERE YOUNG WHEN THEY WERE MARRIED AND SOME WERE OLDER, BUT I BELIEVE THAT THAT THE COMMON FACTOR IS THAT THEY ALL SETTLED. I AM A WAITING BEE AND IT MAYBE FROM THAT I HAVE SEEN THAT MAKES ME THIS WAY BUT IM A VERY STRONG WILLED INDIVIDUAL, AND I KNOW WHAT I DESERVE. IM IN NO WAY SELFISH WITH MY SO AND I DO MY PART BUT I KNOW WHAT KIND OF MAN I WANT BY MYSIDE AND I KNOW THAT IM NOT GUNNA SETTLE FOR LESS THEN THAT AND IF IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN ME 20 YEARS TO FIND HIM THEN SO BE IT.
I THINK TOO MANY WOMEN FAIL TO SEE THE RED FLAG WARNINGS LIKE CHEATING AND EARLY SIGNS OF ABUSE. THEY SETTLE BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THEY LOVE THEIR SO'S BUT THEY DO NOT SEE THE LONG TERM EFFECTS. THEY END UP BEING FED UP AND STARTING ALL OVER AGAIN, TRYING TO FND WHERE THEY WENT WRONG.
@FEFE215: Is your Caps Lock key broken?
There are a multitude of reasons for divorce and it's hard to speculate why a marriage would fall apart aside from the obvious (cheating, abuse, etc). I don't think anyone can divorce-proof their marriage, but being honest and open about things that are dealbreakers going in (like Ryna and her FI) keep you both on the same page. I'm not sure that age has much to do with being ready for marriage. I think it boils down to life experience and maturity.
This is a fabulous thread.
I think the most common reasons are money, unrealistic expectations, lack of emotional maturity, marrying the wrong person and simply not having the same core values/goals.
Money, no explanation needed.
Unrealistic expectations - as OP stated above people tend to into marriage with an 'idea' of what marriage and are unprepared for the monotonous day to day grind that relationships can be. They think marriage is the magic fix to problems or that love conquers all, sounds great but it doesn't.
Emotional maturity - Also, many people depending on the time in their life or circumstances lack the ability to truly be emotionally intimate and available to their partners. We all are carrying a ton of baggage and sometimes we just haven't developed the appropriate skills to really connect with our partners on the levels that they need us to. Each of us has a code i suppose of how we need to communicated to or what we consider "normal" and what helps us to feel secure in relationship. If your partner can't tap into that then frustrations are inevitable.
I suppose above two reasons simply feed right into picking the wrong partner. Because if we had the two aligned, then you would recognize the signs that person that you have chosen isn't right for you.
Lastly, if you guys don't have similar CORE values or goals, then whats the point. I do believe that opposites attract but there are some basics that you both have agree on otherwise it will be recurring thorn in your relationship.
Our rabbi said he won't marry us if he didn't think we'd make it. He'd send us to counseling first, so we could figure things out. Luckily that wasn't necessary.
@Aure
NO CAPS LOCK KEY ISNT BROKEN, MY SYSTEM AT WORK ONLY WORKS WITH CAPS, SO I FORGET TO TURN IT OFF.
@Miss Tattoo: "You will fall out of love with him sometimes and sometimes you will plot to kill him, but then he will go on and have a glass of wine waiting for you after work or puts the dishes away. Sometimes there will be a towel waiting for you after you get out of the shower. It's those little things that I appreciate and make me realize not only did I marry for love, I married for friendship, and companionship."
This is so freaking true. I tell everyone that knows us as couple. Yes I adore him but there are defntely times I wanna stab him with a butter knife. True relationships are not all lovey dovey. It really can be a seesaw of emotions.
@Miss Tattoo: I love that quote :)
also wierd topic! I kinda wrote about this the other day. eerie.
But I think Augustine has it right- if you think all love is, is the excitement, and not the affection of companionship (the far more mundane, or even daily routine of love, as I see it), then you will quickly fall out of love with someone. But if you are rooted as one, in companionship, then it will last.
I think its the same concept when we think about it as terms of phases in love-obsession (in love)- then companionship (affection and mutual respect)- its when the attraction is lesser but the appreciation and affection for the other person has grown. Its the companionship of the relationship that keeps it together.
Apparently sex and money are the two biggest issues in marriage. We all will go through hard times in marriage, but I think it's a choice of whether you fight through it or give up (not including abuse). I'm not married yet, so I can't give much advice. But I know that my FI and I have already been through a variety of different issues. Huge huge issues. If we made it through that, and fought through that... then I think we'll make a huge effort to fight for the rest of our lives. But, if you have one spouse who gave up already... then the spouse fighting doesn't really stand a change IMO. That determines a lot as well!
Is it bad that when my husband left, the 50% statistic kept coming up in my mind, and I kept thinking over and over, "Well, I guess if we're on the wrong side of the 50%, that means fewer of my loved ones have to be there with us." Terrible logic, but it just kept resurfacing.
The thing that has really stuck out for me is that you as an individual can't control the outcome of your marriage. I wanted to go to counseling, wanted to work through the cheating, etc. but my husband wasn't willing. All the conversations we had about it before marriage, we always agreed that we would go to counseling if things ever got bad, that we would work through everything, etc. but when push came to shove, he just quit and walked away, almost over night. I still don't really know all of his reasons for leaving, because he won't talk to me. He considers telling me what he thinks went wrong as "putting effort" into something he's given up on (i.e. our marriage) - and that's a waste of time in his mind.
(Sidenote: I ask myself all the time what happened to the person I married, because this sure isn't him.)
I agree with amnystik that there's really no room for selfishness in marriage - zero, none, zilch. The things people fight about? Money, sex - those things boil down to being selfish. I want to spend my money my way. I want more pleasure for me.
Oh, and we did/do not fit the statistics. No broken homes, we're not young, we're both well educated, we've had a relationship for years, etc.
@amnystik: That's really harsh and a wee bit judgemental even with your disclaimer at the bottom.
The fact is that marriages don't end because of age. It's actually the things RELATED to the stage of life you're in, rather than the number itself. Money and education for example. Fact of the matter is, if you don't have enough money at ANY age you're going to fight. Plenty of ladies here fight over money issues, loans, etc. Money problems are the number one cause of divorce. Education has been linked to divorce because of its effects on abuse, as well as overall flexibility. The more educated a man, the less likely he will be to physically abuse his wife. True stuff.
So (in conclusion) it isn't the mere fact that a person is under 25 that means they are selfish and their marriages destined to fail but rather what credentials that person has. I already have a bachelor's (and going for graduate work) and have a job. Fiance is likewise educated. Are we better off than someone at 17? Sure, but it doesn't mean they are destined to fail if they have a good support system and goals to educate themselves.
***
Sorry to vent but I despise when people start throwing around "age" as being the reason half of people won't make it. It's a complete fallacy and quite frankly numerous examples could be made why older brides won't make it either. Selfish. Settling. Hoping to change the guy they are with. Oh and if you are a single female and have a PhD you are more likely to get divorced (and are older). But it's not constantly mentioned as a reason you're marriages will fail.
*Steps off box*
@Miss Tattoo: This is from Captain Corelli's Mandolin by Louis de Bernieres... I had someone read it at my wedding.
I think another reason why divorce rate is higher now is because of less religious fanaticism, its more socially OK. ITs not that people wouldnt have been divorced 50 years ago, but they would have been ostracized. Women would not have had the means to support themselves (no jobs, no education, completely dependent on the make income earner)
Lots of reasons.
Had I married any one of my three loves I have had in my life up until now/FI... I would be divorced. Guaranteed, without a shadow of a doubt.
And it didn't matter if it was the loves of my 20's or the one I had in my 30's.
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