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I have a very good friend that I've seen tendencies like this with. Not nearly to the extent of your friend, but still enough that I saw it affected her DD.
Her's was more about jumping from relationships with guys and still dragging things out emotionally with her DD's dad.
I told her straight up that if she didn't want her daughter to deal with the things she dealt with guys, heartbreak, lonliness, etc then she needed to stop. And that her daughter had no business knowing the things she did (we're together, no we broke up, etc)
She stopped for a little while, but it's still a tendency of hers and her daughter still suffers for it.
My take on it though is I would much rather have a tough conversation with my friend who I care greatly about in hopes that she could change things, then say nothing and be there on the day when it hits her that she screwed her kid and it's too late to fix it. To me, love is being able to say and do the tough things... even if it means that the relationship is "put on the line" b/c I know in my own life, I've always appreciated those that were real with me as opposed to those that just sat back and watched me hurt myself and the ones I love.
Whatever you decide to to, however you do it, goodluck, and in the end just know that your heart on it is all that matters... not how she reacts or receives it but that you loved her enough to so what's hard and what nobody wants to do.
I have an old friend from high school who is going through a messy divorce and her poor 3 year old is suffering from it. She moved several states away from her ex, immediately found someone else she is interested in, and seems to be (at least somewhat) emotionally neglecting her little boy.
I understand having difficultly adjusting without your significant other, but you have to at least make an effort to remain as loving and available for your child as possible.
@fellowbee: If you really feel as though the child is being neglected or abused then you must say something and perhaps report it to authorities.
However, if you just wouldn't parent this way, then it's none of your business. Lots of people have different views and techniques when it comes to parenting. You could mention it if you wish, but she sounds like the type of person that may lash out at you and push you away.
Personally I would talk to my friend about what you are think is neglect and suggest she leaves her daughter w/ family members. If she refuses, I would call Child Protective Services. I know ppl may say otherwise but I've seen similar instances happen in my family. Luckily the situation changed for the better in one instance, but it took Services to get involved. Hopefully she will listen to reason and allow her daughter to be cared for by responsible family members.
I agree, that we all have different parenting styles and unfortunetely not all parents put thier kids first. if you DO say something word it with "(childs name" really does a lot better when ____" gice her examples of what worked when you watched her kids rather than "you should do _____ differently" Nothing gets on my nerves quicker than someone telling me how to raise my kid. it has only happened once or twice but I was really very annoyed because all I could think is 'you are missing SO much information! you can't be so quick to judge!" good luck to you and your friend, im glad to hear you were so supportive of her kid.
This makes me so sad that some people have kids and then don't properly care for them, when you have kids they come first, I have a daughter and she is my world, I am always and will always put her first and do what is best for her, getting a child involved in your problems only makes things worse. I agree with squeak, talk with her although I have a feeling she will become defensive and put off, but if her child is not being taken care of like he should then I would abs. report her to child services. I mean who says they hate their child, this makes me sick! Can't her father do anything about the situation?
@ms sweets: I was wondering the same thing. Can the father take the daughter, claiming it's best for their daughter "until she gets settled".
@amnystik: i really want to talk to her and say something, anything. but i know her too well and i know she will just get really defensive and have her own rationalizations/explanations for everything she does. when she first decided to end her marriage (and we ALL thought she was crazy for giving up so quickly/easily/suddenly), i tried to confront her and get her to see that she just might be making a mistake and not to be so quick. Her responsive was to either cry or get really defensive and tell me i was being too harsh with her. i finally gave up trying to ever talk sense into her after that whole ordeal.
@MissEdamame: i agree. Jane is just all over the place though. one day she says she is friends with her ex, then other days she hates him. he can't keep up with her mood swings at all.
@mwitter80: yup you are right, she would lash out, that's why i feel like saying anything now would be futile. or i could be extra subtle, but then she would miss the point .... and i don't think her child is being physically abused or neglected. she is showing signs of attachment problems though. i can't say how bad it is though. I appreciate its none of my business, that's why i feel so sad for this kid. Because i know i can't do much except think about it. But since spending time with the kid last week, i have been thinking about it alot ...
@squeak35: the thing is, i don't think its a CPS case. its not that bad. i could just see her mother's behavior affecting her emotional development in the long run. for example, before they came here and right after Jane broke up with her ex-husband and she started dating other guys, she would bring her kid along to hang out with these other men. because in her head, she had her kid all the time (which was actually not true), so when she wanted to hang out with a new guy, she basically would not be able to see them as freely as she wanted unless she saw them when she had her kid with her.
another thing Jane told me that made me sad was a couple of weeks ago when she said "i can't wait to fall in love, get married, and have kids"....i was dumbfounded, because i was just thinking "um, don't you HAVE a kid". she is on this mission now to find the perfect man and wants to be blissfully in love and she is just SO unrealistic about it. like for the example, the guy she stayed with last week, i was cringing at the stuff she was telling me. Because she is already planning to move to this city, she asked him if she can leave some of her things behind in his apt to pick up when she comes back (after knowing him for about 48 hours).
@Angelz_love: thanks for the tips. All i did so far was tell her what a great time i had with her kid and what we did for fun, etc. i didn't frame it as "you should also be spending time with her like this". I just tried to emphasize what her kid liked doing when i was with her - i basically talked to her on the assumption that she WANTED to know what her kid had been up to. Even though she only asked me how it went AFTER she relayed every detail of the guy she hung out with that she barely knows.
This might be a little strange sounding, but 'tis my life, and I must accept it:
My FSIL is just like this friend you mentioned. But, for different reasons. My FSIL met my cousin (B) four years ago and they started dating. Shortly into their relationship, FSIL met my other cousin (C), who is B's brother. FSIL decided she'd rather have C than B, but she wouldn't break up with B because she was fearful that if she left B, she'd never see C again. FSIL ended up getting pregnant by B, but she really, deep down inside hoped it was C's baby (by this point, she was screwing them both). Anyway, nobody knew about FSIL and C, so she just passed the baby off as B's son. We still don't really know the true paternity of my future nephew.
Since future nephew was born, FSIL has been very detached and unloving towards him. She was mean and abusive to him when he was a baby, she would even hit him in his infancy. I'm not kidding. She would scream and curse at him, "Shut the f*ck up you little piece of sh*t!" It was very sad. This is probably the cutest little boy in the world and his mommy is and always has been mean to him. Now that he's two, my aunt and uncle pretty much raise future nephew. FSIL works long hours as a restuarant manager. She purposefully chose a job that would keep her from her son. When she gets home from work, she runs right into her bedroom and goes to bed. She doesn't acknowledge her son and makes my aunt and uncle do all the work, while they're just supposed to be the doting grandparents.
I don't just think, I KNOW my FSIL is a bad mother. I also know it is because she has chosen to detach herself from her baby because he most likely wasn't fathered by the person she's in love with. It is sad and unfortunate for the baby. FSIL even goes out of her way to spend thousands of dollars on my three younger siblings because she knows it will impress my cousin, C, who loves my siblings and cares for them on a daily basis. Yet, her son is going around with clothes and shoes that are far too small for him. It makes no sense. If I could take my future nephew and raise him, I would in a heartbeat. I have a feeling that might even end up a possibility one day when he chooses to escape his mom.
@ms sweets: @mwitter80: my husband says the same thing. he knows pretty much the whole situation and has also seen it for himself over the past several years, and while my DH is a no-drama, doesn't get involved in other people's business kind of person, when he has offered me his opinion on everything he thinks it is as simple that the father should file for custody and that undoubtedly he would get it. I hate that i agree with this (i hate it because Jane IS one of my best friends so i feel even guilty for writing about her here like this...).
However, the problem is the father, while a great, unselfish person, was not also not prepared to be a father. And he was heartbroken by Jane. And basically, i don't think he has the balls to take the kid from her. I think its just always been the assumption between them that she has primary custody. As far as i know though, they have no legal agreement. And on the outside she will talk as though she has her kid's best interest at heart. She says she would never want her kid to live away from her father (but since she is only 4 years old, i guess it was okay to for an undefined number of months to be away from her father and move around from house to house??!). So even when I spoke to the father last week, he basically told me that he thinks this also will be short term and they will be settled soon, so no damage will be done. And he is coming for a visit soon since it will be a while before he gets his immigration (how crazy is it that he has spend a couple of thousand dollars on a plane ticket to see his kid for a few weeks??)
@fellowbee: Completrly understand. Maybe cause I've known children that have been abused by their mother's boyfriends, I don't believe in having a child stay in a risky situation. I'm not saying that is what's happening but I always question.
Will it be possible to talk to her family to gage how they feel about the situation? Sometimes it takes family to talk to step up and say enough is enough. I know in the situations in my family, family literally let it be known hat the child stays while they figure out their life. One situation Services had to be called cause calls to the police wasn't enough.(Ex SIL) Pure craziness but what had to be done was done.
Sending up lots of prayers for you, her and her daughter.
@fellowbee: If the daughter was born here and he's not a citizen, he may not have any legal rights to his daughtr in this country. It gets really ugly when its an international custody issue. Remember the case where the father was fighting for custody after his ex wife died in Brazil. Unfortunately due to international custody laws, most parents resort to kidnapping.
When it comes to children, you absolutely have to step in and do the uncomfortable thing. If she won't listen when you try to talk with her (and talking with people like this is usually pointless), then make your case to the father. If he is fit and he has family to assist him, then he needs to step-up and do what is best for his daughter. Is it possible that your friend has an undiagnosed disorder? What you've described sounds so much like my friend's mother, who was undiagnosed bi-polar for many years and took her children from home to home and man to man until my friend was abused by the new "love" in her mother's life.
Would you and your husband be willing to provide a home for the little girl? If only temporary, at least she'd be safe. In the meantime, her father could make plans for claiming her and file for custody.
I don't mean to sound hateful toward your friend, but what she is blindly doing will change this child's life forever and could potentially have consequences even your friend would regret. I think you have to do everything you can to prevent that, even if it means manipulating her by suggesting that it would be easier on her if her daughter stayed with you until she gets settled. If you are truly concerned and feel you can't do anything else, report her to CPS. It is that bad. Meeting random guys in a bar and "falling in love" while bringing her young daughter around those men is dangerous.
I know your hands are basically tied, but I think you have to try.
@Pinksapphire: Thanx. He's my fav player and I was hoping my future babby daddy. Dh is totally against the idea.
In order to answer this honestly, I would have to create another account. Lets us say alot of what you describe I can totally relate to. I know two moms are really sadly lacking and it makes me so angry. All I can do is to be their for the kids to fill in the spots where the moms lack. Sadly there is very little to do. Even when you speak to women like this they are so self centered they think of themselves as "victims" .
i have a friend who refused to feed her newborn more than 2 ounces every four hours. I'm not a mom so I really couldn't say anything but others were trying to feed the poor guy because he was always crying because he was hungry. she would say, "nope. he has to wait 22 more minutes before he can have another 2 ounces." i asked a few other friends and they said that they never really counted the ounces because they breastfed and let their baby eat until the baby was full. another friend checked with her pediatrician sister and her sister said that wasn't enough formula. i thought it was ironic that she didn't want her baby to get fat and yet she had gained a lot of weight over the last few years and never denied herself any food. i couldn't say anything because I didn't go through it. I even kept my mouth shut when she asked for a breast pump, I bought it and she tried using it once before giving up.
@profiterole: wow she was worried about her newborn getting fat? thats extreme, some babies are hungrier than others so thats a bit harsh to let the baby stay hungry because she didnt want him to be fat.
@Pinksapphire: thats such a sad story :(
@squeak35: i have thought about talking to her brother. that is who she is currently staying with. However, i know she is really close to her brother. But from what she tells me, he is at his wits end living with her kid. Her kid is great, but her brother is younger and just moved in with his gf about a year ago, so now its been like 2 months he is also rooming with his sister and her 4 year old. Apparently he has given her a time limit for when she has to be out! she is chalking it up to him not liking having a kid around, but i also wonder if it is him not wanting to enable her anymore......for now, i will avoid talking to her brother because i don't think there is much he can do and i don't want to risk him just rattling it all back to Jane. And good point about the citizenship thing, i don't know anything about that and i doubt the father has thought it through at all....
@jjmomma: thanks for your reply. this is what i want to do! make a case to the father. when i was talking to him the other night, i was trying to subtly plant ideas in his head, i don;t know if he got it though. But i was totally unsure if being more direct would be completely over stepping my boundaries....but from what i got from him, it just sounds like he needs someone to tell him to take control. I am positive his family would back him too. They are great people and i don;t think they are Jane's biggest fan.
@bklynbridetobe: Jane totally considers herself the victim! you got that right on!
@profiterole: yikes!
Thanks for all the replies so far everyone. you have given me more stuff to think about. Someone asked if my husband and myself could take the kid for a while. I thought of that too. But in reality, I know we can't. We really are struggling financially right now and i am currently looking for a job, so once i get one, we would have no one to look after the kid during the day. Plus i don't think her parents would go for that. I think if it came down to it, she would go back with her father....i think i will start there and see what i can say to him.
Does anyone else think i should or should not say something to the father? This is where I am really unsure about overstepping or not. I totally understand no one wants to be told how to raise their kid or what they should be doing. And i don't want to alienate the father from me as well!
@fellowbee: I know I'm emotional on this one, because of what my friend lived through with a mother like this, so please forgive me for coming on strong. I think you need to throw etiquette out the window. You aren't trying to spare feelings; you're trying to change a child's life. He needs to know your concerns. Hurt feelings can mend with time. I'd call him and talk with him. I'm not sure how he would be offended that you think his daughter is safer living with him right now. You can ask that he not let your friend know you called, but you can't guarantee he won't. Which consequence will you be able to live with ten years from now? Offending your friend who is behaving this way or speaking up to help a child?
This is depressing.
The fact that she is actively dating random men/handing out with them in front of her kid is laying the psychological groundwork for her daughter to fall into the same behaviour patterns when she is older.
Not only is she being unrealistic, but she's being selfish. If she really truly just wants to find "the man of her dreams" and have 400 babies with him, then she should sign away custody of her current child to the obviously more stable ex. Seriously.It would be less damaging in the long run rather than continue to subject her daughter to negelct and emotional abuse. How do you think a kid processes that kind of behaviour? Guilt & blame (toward themselves) for not "making mommy happy" or being "good enough" for mommy.
I forsee long legal struggles and hefty counsellor fees in the future :/
@jjmomma: thanks. i get your point! i also spoke to a mutual friend of ours tonight and we are on the same page about this and she too thinks i need to be more upfront with my friend. although she herself was and it didn't seem to have an effect.....but she thinks that the more of us that show our concern, the better. and i am closer to the father, so i can talk to him. i was happy to talk to our mutual friend too because at least i know i am not exaggerating or wrong for feeling the way i do about the situation and i have someone else who sees it the way i do. that gives me confidence to talk to her and her ex about my feelings. i think i can legitimately start with some objective facts. For example, for the 3 days her kid stayed with me last week she told me she liked living here better than with her mom and uncle (where she currently living). and she insisted on it. this little 4 year old said "i am not just saying that, i really like it better here". it broke my heart. and it is an actual fact that she said this, not my opinion or feeling. so i plan to share this with both her parents and take it from there.
@missmouse29: it is a sad situation all around :(
@fellowbee: I'm thankful that little girl has you... you never know what small effort of yours will make a huge difference in her life.
It's a good thing she has you. I'm just hoping her mother doesn't retaliate by preventing you from spending time with her after you express your concerns. 
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Hey bees,
i am regular poster here, but going invisible for this. I need to vent a bit and get opinions as this has been bothering me quite a bit.
Its about my good friend, Jane. Several years ago she moved to another continent for the experience of living somewhere else. In a matter of months she got pregnant (accident). Lucky for her, the father turned out to be an awesome guy. He followed her back home, they had the baby and all was great. He had a good job and supported his new family. About a year later she wanted to get married. So he bought her a nice ring and proposed and they got married. They also moved to his home country/. She told me it was best for their kid as his family all lived in one city - but in the US, her family was spread out across various states quite far apart.
So she has a husband, a baby, a nice home, a good life, right? Nope. A few months after she gets married, she decides she doesn't want to be married and realizied she was never in love with this guy who adores her and is the father of her baby. Before they got married, she told me he was the "one". So she tortures the poor guy emotionally for months while she tries to figure out if she wants to stay with him. She decides no. She then dates other men (while still living with her ex). I won't go into detail, but let's say its safe to assume that she went waaay downhill from the loving husband she had.
Fast forward a couple more years, she decides she can no longer live in this other country and must immediately return to the US. So she comes back with her 4 year old child and starts hopping all over the country staying with her different family members until she can figure out what she wants to do with her life. Well, since she has been back, I have seen just how self-absorbed she has become AND now that her kid is getting older, I see it taking effect. And my heart just goes out to this kid. It is just so sad. At least I think it is, I don't know if i am over reacting.
Her kid is almost 5 years old and has not seen her father for about 4 months now. Also, now that she is charge of her kid 24/7 (before she had the help of the father and his family), i see it taking a toll on her. She just wants nothng to do with her kid most of the time. She also has changed her plan about where to settle down about 10 times in the last few months and whatever she decides she wants, she expect her ex to follow. Granted they both agreed to move back to the US, but he had been under the impression (since they discussed it a while ago) that it would be in a big city where there is some family nearby and good job opportunities.
Nope. she suddenly and recently decided that she wants to move to this little town where they have no connections. Apparently this has always been her dream. Ironically, a few weeks ago she met a guy in a bar from this town (after she decided she wanted to live there), so she though that a sign from the universe. Last week she went to check out the town and job opportunities for herself....and she stayed with the guy she met one night in a bar!!! And she has openly said she doesn't care about her ex or what he wants, he will just have to follow her wherever she decides to live.
I looked after her kid for a few days while she was gone checking out this other town. That's what's got me all riled up. Spending time with her kid recently broke my heart. Her kid was in my house with me and my husband for 3 days and while she was with us, Jane did not call once to speak to her. She only texted me to see if everything was going ok. Her kid also told me she likes it better here than where she has been staying with her mom. Jane also gave me no instructions on how to care for her. I basically had to wing it and i don't have any kids myself! I ended up having to text her a bunch of questions. Basically, i sense/feel/see that Jane is emotionally neglecting her child and it bugs me to no end that she is being so selfish about everything and her child is the one suffering!
I am friends with her ex and so I said to him "it doesn't seem like Jane is considering what is best for your child in her plans" and he said "well she thinks that whatever is best for her, is best for the kid too" !!!!! I nearly died when he said that! Really?! And I can see her rationalization now "if i am happy, then i can make sure my child is happy".....
So bees, have you ever been in a situation where you think your friend is not being a good mother and you see the kid suffering? And what did you or could you do about it? I don't feel like i can do anything except be there for the kid. But once she moves, I won't really have much opportunity. The father can't even come down right away as he has to get his immigration. You think Jane could have waited until they were both ready to leave and come to the states together with their kid? She even had a good job that she just quit after getting promoted to come back here and now she has nothing. Her parents are enabling her by giving her money and she is demanding child support from her ex because she hasn't had a job in months! All her choice though!