Weddingbee boards

I have to c hime in with the other posters.  Are you sure there isn't a church in your area better suited?  It's a very personal decision so it's hard for us to put ourselves in your shoes, but you two might want to have a serious talk together and make sure.  

And really?  you break the contract if you THINK about sex?  That's so unrealistic to me. Will they not marry you if you admit to having thoughts about sex??

I'm sure there are some people out here somewhere that will have been through something similar and have some input for you on their experiences

This is a difficult post and I commend you for writing it at all. Regardless of the religion, obviously, if you guys are willing to even think about this, you do have some religious moral. This will probably sound really hokey, but I'll say it anyway...why not pray about it?

None of us can answer this question for you because it is such a personal, touchy subject that there are SO MANY different views on.

 Do what seems right to you, whatever that is. I think if you are going to be marrying this guy, you should really open up to him and be talking to him about this.

 Good luck. Its a tough decision.

Hi hisMrs,

I'm a bride-to-be, but I also am preparing for ordination, and as a future clergyperson your situation has really been on my heart for the last several hours.

I am so sorry that you are in this uncomfortable situation. I have some thoughts to offer, but honestly the most helpful thing for you is not going to be the advice of people here, but your own prayer and reflection. I encourage you to pray about this alone and with your fiance, and to study the Bible. (And seriously, do a wide-ranging study - your pastor will likely point you to the verses that he sees as most significant - but those will be the ones that spoke to him, and thus the ones that support his point of view. I'm going to mention some verses too, the ones that speak to me and the ones I think you're likely to hear from your pastor, and I encourage you to read them - and not just the verses in isolation, but in context - the whole chapter or more. Verses are single sentences out of stories and letters. They weren't meant to be read 10 or 20 words at a time. There are different ways to interpret them. So read them, and pray about them, and see what you think.)

You say that your church is "Christian." (As opposed to "Catholic," although Catholics are Christians as well.) There are lots of different kinds of Christians, but I'm guessing that your church is a non-denominational evangelical church. I think this because your pastor is expressing a quite conservative view on premarital sex, and also because non-denomination evangelical churches are usually the ones that call themselves "Christian." Is that right?

You say that you are a "big supporter" of abstinence before marriage. I'm curious what you mean by that? Do you mean that you believe that abstinence is right, and that what you have been doing is sinful? Or do you mean that you see it as a valid and valuable choice, and support couples who are abstinent, but have chosen not to be abstinent yourself? Do you see abstinence as "more holy" but not necessary? I guess what I'm asking is, do you think that you are sinning?

The thing I find most concerning is not the conflict between your church's teachings and your point of view (although I'll talk more about that below.) The thing I'm really concerned about is that there seems to be an element of punishment/shaming in what they are asking you to do. You talk about being "out of your comfort zone," and how this is a "personal topic." Those are major red flags for me - indicators that your church might not be treating you with dignity. You are being asked not just to stop doing what you have been doing, but to sign a "purity" contract - implying that you agree you have been acting "impure," which negates the possibility that you prayerfully considered and decided to have premarital sex within your monogamous, committed relationship. You have to discuss your prior "impurity" and your newfound "purity" with not one, but two people outside of your relationship. It sounds like your church wants you to feel ashamed. Shaming people is against the Gospel. The scriptures tell us that Jesus spent a lot of time with people who were "impure" according to the rules of the time (lepers; demoniacs; the hemhorraging woman; women in general; the adulteress; Mary Magdalene; the list goes on.) He doesn't have a bad word to say for them, but he does think that the self-righteous religious people imposing these "purity" standards were a "brood of vipers" (Matt. 23:33) and a bunch of "white-washed tombs" (Matt. 23:27). Jesus rejects any distinction that causes one person to feel like they are further from God than another person; we are all created children of God, and we all sin. ALL. Jesus rejects the judgments we pass on one another, particularly those that happen in the public arena (Remember the adulteress, where he says that whoever is sinless can throw the first stone (John 8:1-11)?).

Some people have said on here that the Christian point of view on pre-marital sex is clear. I respectfully disagree. Jesus has two teachings that are sort of about sex: the adulteress (and remember, an "adulteress" is a married woman who cheats on her husband, not a woman who has premarital sex. He defends her, says he does not condemn her, and then tells her to "sin no more" - e.g. to not break her marriage vows again), and when he tells the Sadducees that there is no marriage in heaven (Matt. 22:23-33). Neither of these really answers the question at hand. There's Mary and her virginity (Luke 1:26-38), but the scripture isn't really about how holy and pure her virginity is; it talks about her virginity so that it will be clear that the conception was a miracle.

The Old Testament view on pre-marital sex is murky as well - people (including St. Paul) often cite the creation story, although Adam and Eve aren't exactly married (Gen. 1:23-24). On the other hand, I can think of three righteous Old Testament women who have premarital sex: Rahab (Joshua 2-6), Tamar (Gen. 38), and Ruth (the whole book, but look especially at 3:7-8). And the Song of Solomon is a passionate love poem between two lovers who don't live together - are they married? Probably not. Are they abstinent? They might be, but the book sure isn't making a point of it.

There are plenty of teachings & laws about sex in the Pentateuch (first five books). However, this is the law which God gave to Israel on Mount Sinai. Christians typically see these books as holy scripture, but not as laws binding on Christians - we do not follow the food laws, or the laws about mixing two kinds of cloth in one garment or two kinds of seed in one field. We don't follow the slavery laws or the jubilee laws. Some Christians use the few mentions of homosexuality in these books when that question comes up, but I think it's a questionable interpretation. To be honest, because I believe that these laws are scripture but are not law for us Christians, I didn't search them to see what it says about premarital sex.

If you're going to make a case against premarital sex, you're going to have to go with Paul. Paul condemns "fornication" (1 Cor. 6:12-20), but never mentions premarital sex within an committed relationship as an example of fornication. In fact, in the place most people point to, his example is of a man who is sleeping with his step-mother (1 Cor. 5:1). Paul might think that having sex with your fiance before marriage is fornication, but it's really not clear. He does seem to see "impure" thoughts as inevitable for some people (it depends on your "gifts"), which is one of the reasons he recommends marriage (1 Cor. 7:5, 9).

This leads me to my second main point (after the one about shaming): the Bible is a huge book that mostly does not concern itself with premarital sex. Frankly, this is not something that Biblical authors are very worried about. They are more worried about other kinds of righteousness: faith and charity. I think that this is a sex-obsessed culture, and it's natural that the Christian church has followed suit in blowing sex out of proportion. But I think that that's a mistake, and that there are things that are much more central to the Gospel - like faith and charity and justice.

I do encourage you to check out other churches - I know you say that this one is your home, but I am very concerned about the way they are treating you over this issue. For what it's worth, my denomination is the UCC.

I discourage you from lying to your church - it would be one thing if you were marrying in your parents' church to appease them, but this is supposed to be your faith home. If you cannot be yourself there and keep your integrity, something is very wrong.

Please feel free to message me if I can help in any way. I'll be praying for you and your fiance.

Wow, I wish you luck because I would have a VERY hard time with that. We haven't talked to our officiant yet about counseling and such, so I'm kind of worried because I grew up in my church and the pastor already knows me and what a good girl I am () and I really don't want to (or plan to?) lie. We'll cross that bridge when it comes I guess.

Janna-

Yeah, I think you're definitely right, and in Catholicism, for instance, Tradition (with a capital T) is recognized as a major source for dealing with religious questions.

On the other hand, there are definitely churches that claim that they "only follow the Bible," but take very conservative, judgmental stances about sexuality that aren't necessarily biblical. And I think it's important to recognize that and be able to respond, especially when the church is being so extreme. 

Also, sorry to everyone that it was so wordy. I preached this morning, and apparently I'm now all verbose.

@<font size="2" color="#81a026">worcesterbride</font> I have to tell you how much I appreciate your well reasoned, thought out and obviously well researched reply to someone's obviously difficult situation. When I scrolled down I saw all of the citations, and expected to be beat over the head with "You're sinning!" etc. Instead, I found something I understood, and appreciated. Clearly you've found a calling and vocation you are well suited for. Thanks for breaking my sterotype!

Your post also reminded me of a friend of mine, who is a minister for the Episcopalian church down the street. She has a poster in her office which says: "Jesus took my sins away, not my brain."

@Tanya123:  Thanks for such a well-written and thought out post!  I think opinions like these are in the minority and that's why they are never voiced.

I'm going to post one more time to clear up some questions, and this will be my last post on this thread. I've found that extended forum arguments/debates between Christians with different convictions and different ways of reading the Bible are seldom helpful to anyone. I do plan to respond to those who have messaged me as soon as I'm able.

I want to clarify what my intention was in posting: it seemed to me that the original poster was in distress because the church's requirements conflicted with her own sexual ethics, and I wanted to make sure that she, and others in a similar position, were aware that there are multiple Christian points of view on this issue; that if what the church asked of her went against her own ethics and faith and understanding of God's will, she did not have to leave The Church, although she may have to leave this particular church.

I am a member of a progressive denomination, and a great deal of our membership consists of people who have come to us spiritually wounded - people who have felt shamed, or violated, or silenced, or betrayed by the religious communities that they used to belong to; some of them about premarital sex, some about homosexuality or other sexual issues, some about other things. When this happens to someone, often they leave their church, and they often stay away from church for five or ten or twenty years before they come to us. Many never come back to any church at all. And I don't think that's because they love sex more than God, I think it's because their conscience rightly tells them that the church is not treating them in a way that is loving and ethical and in accordance with the Gospel. It seems from her subsequent posts that this is not the case with the original poster, and I am glad. But I know that people do get hurt by their churches over this issue, and so I wanted to make sure that it was clear that there are options besides staying in an unhealthy situation or leaving Christianity altogether.

I understand that there are many people on this board who have major theological problems with my faith and my denomination's faith, and may not even think of us as part of the true Church, and I guess that's an irreconcilable difference. But I have a faith commitment to extending God's love to everyone, and because of the people I know in my church, my heart especially goes out to people who feel unloved in their churches.

I made a case that the Bible is ambiguous on this issue because I wanted to be clear that this is an issue which particularly requires discernment, prayer, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. For traditions that draw doctrine primarily or solely from the Bible (most Lutheran/reformed traditions, in theory if not practice), I think it is especially important to handle these questions with great respect for the conscience of the individual believer. If (once I become a minister) someone came to me and said "I feel in my heart that premarital sex is wrong, but I'm doing it anyway because there's not a compelling Biblical case against it," I would urge them to abstain. And if they weren't sure, I would urge them to study, and to pray, and to read strong arguments for both sides (thanks for yours, Tanya123, by the way!) My point is, it's a hard question, and I think you have to answer it yourself.

@Tanya123: Thanks for your post. It's clear that you and I read the Bible very differently, and I respect and thank you for your very thorough and well-argued post. There are a few things I want to respond to in it, but I hope not to fan the flames on this debate, so I'll try to keep this short.

Concerning "two shall become one flesh": I definitely see your point. I don't know how to understand this verse precisely, but I'm hesitant to interpret it to mean that any two people who have intercourse have some kind of metaphysical link, as a law of nature. That reluctance comes from speaking with a minister I respect who works with rape victims - some have heard this verse interpreted to mean that a rape victim is "one flesh" with her attacker. I disagree with *that* interpretation, and hope that we can agree that this understanding goes against our belief in a loving and merciful God. Of course, that's a very different case, and I mostly only raise it because I think Christians need to be sensitive about how this verse is used.

Concerning "fornication": the word Paul uses is the Greek word "porneia." Some scholars hold that this word means any sex outside of a legal marriage. Other scholars think other things. It's an ongoing debate in biblical scholarship. That's all I meant.

Would I tell Jesus? We believe in an omniscient God, so I assume He already knows whether I'm having premarital sex. And I went through a discernment process of prayer and study about my decision, so I think I would be comfortable telling Jesus about that. But I don't think that this was a central concern of his life and ministry, as I've stated before, so I don't think it would come up. I think he might be concerned that I'm getting all self-righteous on the internet, though. Eep!

Blessings,

WB