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My ex of 4 years was also this type. He was obsessed with 50/50 and it drove me mad. He put more focus on who was doing what, rather than if it was getting done or not. Eventually, I just had to assign tasks. Who cares if it's demeaning, as long as it's getting done and we had less things to fight about. You can even revisit the "chore list" every couple of months to make sure everyone is happy. What is wrong with that? It would certainly reduce the amount of fighting that goes on, so it's worth it.
So my ex was clean, and I liked that in a way. I am also the clean type too. However, my boyfriend of 18 months is a SLOB. However, he is an amazing cook and completely 100% caters to my vegan diet. He even eats vegan when I come over! And I feel if we ever moved in together, he would probably be vegan at home, and eat his meat when away from home. This characteristic is a HUGE plus in our relationship, so I can handle his slob tendencies. I personally hate cooking. I will eat PB and J for dinner to get out of it. I could clean up after my boyfriend for 50 years to "gain" his cooking expertise.
My point is, for me, I love my boyfriend so much I don't care that he is a slob. I just pick up the slack. He is not good at cleaning. You and your BF should pick out chores you don't "mind" doing, and split up the remaining chores that no one wants to do. For example, I don't mind cleaning bathrooms and doing laundry, but I hate vacuuming/mopping floors. My ex and I had to figure out this system or we would have killed each other.
I'm having a rough time with my boyfriend right now (on a separate note) because my boyfriend is also making me "audition" for the role of wife. I have to pass his "test" of holding a job for a while. I am a 6 weeks out of school and while in school I had 4 different jobs. BF is not thrilled about my job hopping, and refuses to acknowledge that people job hop while in school. I used to have a career (I am 31) but did the job hopping while I was a student for 9 months.
I don't think it's any of his BUSINESS how many jobs I had, as long as I put food on the table for me and my son. But my boyfriend is so "professional" and developed in his career that having a career wife is important to him. A whole different post... I guess I am just venting myself, but I wanted you to know I can relate to the frustration of feeling like you are only worthy of his wife IF you meet certain conditions. I think it's a bunch of crap. Just like I accept my sloppy boyfriend (and I am a neat freak), your BF should accept you the way you are. It's not like you are an alcoholic/abuser. You are just not as tidy as he likes. So what?
I'm sorry he is giving you such a hard time. I had an ex like that. He always expected me to perform certain tasks and in a way that was just not me. I finally got tired of him trying to change me.
@blinx81: This is such a tough one :/ I'm sorry you're having to go through this.. But from a logical perspective, understand that this is how he is proably going to be forever and ever and is that something you can handle in the future? His tendency to point this out to you will probably especially rear its ugly head when/if you have children, b/c there are so many responsibilites with that.
It's great you realize you are compatible and great for each other on so many other levels, b/c that is certainly very important and if you two can get past the 50/50 thing it seems like things will be great in all other respects.
Instead of doing a roster or chore list, do you think you could have a talk w/ him and verbally agree on responsbilites?
Maybe just take a step back and think about what more you could do that you think would "please" him if that is what you are aiming to do. Say, if you washed the bedsheets every Sunday or made sure to scrub the bathroom clean every Thursday, maybe he would take a notice to these "regular" chores you are doing.
I'm sorry I can't offer too much advice! I end up doing almost all the housework around here, he doesn't like to do much at all and it's usually easier to just do it versus nag at him. It's not easy sometimes, but I just suck it up and do it.
Good luck! I hope everything works out :)
what is wrong with a roster!? he's the one wanting to make sure things get done 50/50, right? I personally think he's the unreasonable one.
I understand your hurt and frustration on how you feel you are being tested by him, that would sadden me too I'm sure, but, since he's trying to logic you with equality and stuff, why not logic him and tell him he's being unreasonable about not wanting a roster and how he wants to get things done.
Forgive me if I'm overstepping my boundaries.. but I think the fact that he wants everything 50/50 proves that HE isn't ready for marriage. Love and marriage aren't about everything being 50/50, its aboutworking together and trying your best to make things work the best they can. Maybe you aren't up to "super mom cleaning speed" yet, but you've only moved in together 6 months ago, you have time to improve.. if you don't improve, try making a spare 50$ every week or every other week to put towards a cleaning lady. Unless you're sitting around watching TV and eating popcorn while he's vaccuuming, I don't understand his issue.
I really agree with kingytobe. I'm having a hard time really believing that if he loves you so much and thinks you're the one that something like a 40/60 or 30/70 chore split is enough to keep him from wanting to marry you. I think there might be something more going on in his head since you say everything else is compatible.
Sidenote & probably not an issue: if he ever starts to make your lower (normal, in my opinion) standards of cleaning an attack on your character ("you always are so messy, I can't stand you" "you just don't give a sh** about our house," etc.) then that's a major sign that something's going on. I don't know if you've ever read any of Gottman's stuff on marriage, but it's about the 4 things that predict divorce 96% of the time. I'm not saying this will happen, I'm just saying if this gets to be a bigger issue it could happen. And I know you're not married, but Gottman wrote most of his stuff before people were living together so often before marriage. It's still very applicable today, he's talked about a lot in my marriage & fam therapy courses.
He obviously feels like you aren't carrying your weight in regard to a household. There have been a LOT of discussions around here about "i do everything, my SO, the man, does nothing" and the conversation always ends up being that you should talk to him about it and try to divide tasks up better, even come up with a chore chart. And here, it's considered ridiculous when it's the other way around? I find that odd. Personally, I would have trouble wanting to marry someone who didn't carry their fair weight around the house. We are 50/50...we both work and we both live here. There may be a week he does more or I do more, but it isn't a week after week thing or it becomes selfish. You cook and you clean once a week--what is he doing that makes it "so much more" than what you do, you know? Dividing up tasks isn't a bad idea AT ALL. My husband has certain chores that I don't do (take out the trash and clean toilets) and I have tasks that I do. You could always hire someone to clean your house twice a month, too. It's like, $120/visit or something for deep cleaning. At least around here.
I agree with some of the other bees who have said that you need to find out what 50/50 is. You don't have to have a "chore chart" with gold stars, but maybe just grab a sheet of notebook paper and hash it out. Just keep it in a drawer for reference, but you don't have to check it off or anything so you guys don't feel like you're five again :).
Some folks are just not as 'clean freaks' as others. I don't think it is very possible to get a 50/50 split when it comes to housework. So he did the garden from the ground up, well, maybe that's his interest, figuring stuff out. Is it that your house looks like a tornado blew through it and you are sitting watching Jersey Shore not giving a crap? Doesn't sound like it. You've been giving excellent advice below. Why don't you do the chore chart and revisit every couple of months or so? I understand the whole 'testing' thing. I used to rail at my then BF about it. It was so annoying, like, I'm not good enough till I passed some stupid test? Nah, he just wasn't ready and he admitted it!
@kingytobe: Being on the other side of this issue, I'll take a stab at explaining. It's not that anyone is (likely) sitting with pen and pencil trying to calculate a precise 50/50 split. However, when things are very badly skewed in terms of taking caare of the joint home, it can be very upseting and that grates on the relationship. To my eye, the bf is just seeking a rough over time approximation of 50/50 rather than 30/70, not a precise week to week 50/50.
I love my boyfriend, and it's not that our division of chores would make me not want to marry him. But it does cause a lot of stress on our relationship because 1) I get resentful that he can watch me clean stuff and not lift a finger to help, 2) I have to nag him to do "his" chores (he had a cat before me, the cat litter needs to be cleaned out regularly and I *hate* coming home to a house that smells like cat pee nor do I feel I can have friends over) and no one likes to hear or be a nag, 3) I don't feel like we have a partnership when he doesn't chip in much and it greatly bothers me - I am not a 1950s housewife with time to do everything, I am a 2010's girlfriend with my own job, volunteer activities (which he doesn't have) and social activities and 4) I worry about what will happen when we have kids. Clearly this is a mini-vent of my own.
He tells me I don't "count" things he does do for the relationship, such as most of the driving. So, now that I've finally learned to drive stick, we're going to split the driving more. Once the kitchen renovation is finished, we're going to create a chore chart. Making this up will also force us to agree on basic standards, as I generally want it more clean than he does. (I'm not a neat freak. Pre-me, he used a basket and pile "system" of laundry to avoid putting away clothes, and ate takeout every night to avoid shopping/clean up. And from what I could tell, had never done things like scrub the tub since he had moved in 5 year prior.) And, we're looking into getting a house cleaner. (I'm worried about the last one because it won't solve the problem of everyday things like taking dishes to the kitchen after eating because it'd only be every other week. So we need to not think of this as a one time solution)
6 months is plenty of time to have set habits and for the bf to be worried. So my advice is: Set expectations of what ought to be done that you both agree on. Then follow through, using devises such as a chore chart if needed.
My DH made it clear from the start. He doesn't do ANYTHING around the house. He works 16-18 hours/day and doesn't want to spend his free time doing chores. BUT, he has always said that if there is anything I don't want to do, he agrees to split the cost to hire someone else to do it.
This eliminates all arguments about cleaning, cutting the lawn, snow removal, cooking...etc. It's now up to me to decide what is more important, my time or my money.
I don't expect him to do anything, so I don't get pissed when he doesn't.
OP - maybe suggest the same to your BF. If he wants to clean, he can clean. If he wants you to clean, you can both hire someone to do it. It puts the responsibility and decision making back in his court.
@ejs4y8: Exactly. If someone feels that they someone in the household isn't pulling their weight, well, it's probably the reality. I know that there are times when I get resentful of SO when he's slacking off a bit....and lots of the women around here have made posts to elaborate that point as well. There's nothing wrong, in my opinion that he wants things 50/50 as many women expect the same. Maybe it's time for a talk with him to a) point out what it is that you contribute to the household, and b) what else he may expect you to do a little more of. I see nothing wrong with making a chore chart after that discussion. If you feel that there are ways that you definitively contribute to the household that he's not taking into account, you need to point that out.
Sometimes you do really need to point out what you contribute to the household to your SO. I was resentful a bit of my SO because I "thought" I did everything, until he pointed out that I never have to lift a finger with trash, clean up after I cook, clean off my car when it snows (which is like EVERY DAY in Massachusetts this winter!), load up the dishwasher, or directly clean up after him because he takes care of it all. WOW, I definitely changed my tune a bit after that. Resentment? Gone. Appreciation? Yes.
My point about contribution, I think, includes monetary/ work hours as well. Say one of the parties in the relationship works more than the other...that's part of their contribution. For example, my SO's dream is for me to become a district manager of the company I work for so he can be a stay at home dad. He best believe that if he stays at home, he will be doing the majority of the chores around the house. :)
I agree that a roster of some sort, or a verbal agree emnt of who is responsible for what is the best solution. Each person, based on how she or he was raised and the kind of house their parents kept, has a different priority of what needs to be done in the house. Some people think dishes and the kitchen are #1 on the list of things that need to be addressed. Other feel the living room should always be spotless and the laundry can wait until the living room is done. Some people need every nook and cranny clean and ready for viewing, others are okay as long as guest don't look in the closets. Part of getting ready to be married is fidning out what each of you finds a priority, not only in the realm of kids and career, but how do each of you feel about what to do with wet towels? Dirty dishes? Weeding gardens? If your family was clean, but relaxed about it and his was more strict that could explain the difference in attitude here. Just tell him that you like a clean house as much as him, but A is more important to you than B, or that while he's gung ho about taking care of C, D is what you grew up regarding as important.
I can see how he moght want to expect the house to be spotless with a child, but seriously, pets and kids do one thing well - they make a mess. You have to realx a bit by that point and just deal with the fact that the dog WILL poop at some point in the house, and destroy at least one object. A child will find news ways to amke a mess each week of their life, and for the first few years, they won't be old enough to train to clean for themselves. If he wants kids, he needs to relax and realize that there are other prioroties byy then, other than an immaculate house, and since you'd be a team, if you as the female were spending more time on childcare, he as the partner with more free time would ahve to pick up some slack and keep the house to his specifications.
Also, not that I really suspect this of your SO but think it's worth mentioning, I've found a LOT of my friends' parents (and my own) have borderline and even serious hoarding issues. If your SO has ever had a relative with ANYTHING like that, it can look scary and something to be avoided at all costs. I have a friend who is a total Anti-Hoarder, becuse she's faced the problems of a family member with a serious probelm - its kinda like the kid of an alcoholic being completely adverse to any drinking at all. She tosses things regularly to avoid allowing that behavior to take hold of her.
I personally do the majority of cleaning in my reltionship, but he does most of the cooking, it's his house and while I pay at least 1/2 the bills, he buys the groceries most of the time. Also, I figure that most of the chores I find to be needed and he feels he can ignore (and he does - I've tried letting things go and I coulnd't stand it) are things I'd do living together or alone, so "most" days it doesn't bug me.
Relationships are about give and take and things are not always black and what about what is "even" or not. Yesterday I cleaned a bit and made dinner, while BF went out and shoveled the walk way and cleaned snow off my car. We could both very well argue that it wasn't "50/50", but we each did something for each other and were appreciative for it. I don't get told that I'm not putting in my share of the work if I make a dinner that's a flop; as long as I am trying my best and putting in an effort. You do NOT have to break your back to appease him.
The way he is putting you down over this, and making you feel "unworthy" sounds very controlling can be a sign of verbal/emotional abuse. Just watch out for yourself.
DH and I have split housework pretty evenly as far as I can tell. I don't feel like I do more than half of the day to day upkeep.
What works better for us is to have "his chores" and "her chores" - rather than each doing 50% of every individual chore. If someone is more uptight about the way a certain chore gets done - then it becomes their chore. In my house, DH cares way more about not letting dishes pile up in the sink, so he's the one who does dishes 90% of the time. I am afraid of letting him do laundry and sort properly, so I'm the one who does it. Of course, the other person can pitch in and help out with chores that aren't theirs if the other is having a busy week at work, or just feels like it, or whatever.
This way, it is totally clear whose "job it is" to do something without having to refer to a chart or have a discussion (aka nag each other).
I feel it is kind of BS that he's auditioning you for marriage, so to speak. I hope you can take back some of the power. Maybe YOU don't want to marry HIM unless he stops acting like a d-bag about the chores! Ideally, the two of you would find a compromise. It's not that YOU need to live up to his ideal of cleanliness and order. The two of you need to find a happy place that's a little neater than you would want, and a little messier than he would want.
@blinx81: I think that 50/50 is subjective and generally one or both partners feel like they are doing more or the other is doing less. This may or may not be reality.
One thing that helped in my past marriage, was to write a list of all the chores that I had done, and all the chores that my (then) DH had done in a week to show the imbalance (due to him not doing enough). I didn't tell him to do a chore wheel to take turns (though I considered it). I, instead, just brought it to his attention via the list so that he could visually see everything I had done and everything he had done in two neat coloumns next to each other. It was very clear who was doing what and how "equal" it was. Maybe something like this will help your BF see that you are doing your fair share?
Also, I think people have different strengths at different things. In general, I do more of the day-to-day cleaning, but my SO does the "deep cleaning," and mops the floors, washes the car, scrubs and cleans the stove, cleans the fridge, etc. He also does trash/recycling, carrying heavy stuff, etc. It works out well because he is better at mopping the floors, and I hate scrubbing the oven, but I don't mind cleaing the toilets, you know?
One thing I think if/when you do talk to you BF again is to try to explain that there really is no true 50/50. If you're better at something (cooking, for example) maybe you do that more. Couples aren't obligated to both cook X times a week just so it's "fair." The only way to truly be "equal" or "fair" is to be unequal - a total paradox.
Ok. How petty. Number one. I'd be pissed at the fact that he tried to use engagement as a way to make you contribute. Why do guys think it will controll us if they say "well if you don't do this, I might not propose to you". Do they ever think of what we could say? "you're being a douche and I can't believe you would try to punish me in that way. Did you ever think that maybe now *I* don't want to be engaged to *you*?"
I see it all the time on these boards. Men thinking that it's the one point of control over a woman. But it's totally a double edged blade, and depending on the way he presented his possible unwillingness to propose to you, I would tell him that just as much as it's his right not to propose, it's you're right to say yes or no. I would not take lightly what he said about maybe not wanting to propose. Especially over something as trivial as housework. That's not cool. Tell him to grow up.
Ok. I was really upset for you when I wrote my post before and I'm not sure it was helpful. I've cooled down now and I'd like to try again.
I don't think it's fair that he thinks he can like...make you change your habits by holding engagement over your head. That's a tactic you use with a 2 year old, not your girlfriend/fiance. I think maybe it might be time to sit down and do the chore chart. I mean....he's not getting the results he wants now and I doubt threatening you with non-engagement is going to get him results either, not without garnering resentment.
I also think it was a REALLY low blow to bring your parenting into it. You would be pleasantly surprised to find how many women grow into motherhood! Just because you don't pick up his socks now doesn't mean that you will be a bad parent! Because parenting isn't about picking up socks! I would bring this part of your discussion up with him again. Ask him like...for real, does he think this? Does he truly think you will not be able to handle being a mother? It speak volumes about his perception of you. It's one thing if he said it to spite you, you know, just to be mean. But it's worse if he really thinks that about you. :-(
Good luck- I don't agree with what he is doing and holding the engagement over your head about this is't cool. Basically he is telling you something like this is a deal breaker for him, he isn't sure he could marry someone if chores aren't split 50/50.... Marriage isn't 50/50- it is let's do this TOGETHER and achieve for our greater good.
I honestly would leave someone like him because of the bolded. I don't feel he is IT for you if you both can't work past this.
@blinx81: First off, I'm really sorry you're having to deal with this crap and feel like you're being 'tested' for the role of being his wife.
I agree with the PPs about either talking to him about how you guys can work through this together, whether it be with charts, a points system chore game [where you guys can make up fun little rewards for whoever wins], or designating certain chores to each other.
My SO was never the cleanest guy, but then he had a traumatic experience with former roommates. He denies it, but I really think it affected him [his roommates were 100 times worse than my SO... it was disgusting. They didn't help him clean when they moved out, and my SO got stuck with a HUGE bill]. Now he gets very antsy when things aren't spotless. Sometimes it really frustrates me, because he really nags at times, but I also understand to an extent. We usually clean up the house together, and we'll each usually do the chores the other hates [ie: he knows I'm not big on doing the dishes, so he'll do them sometimes. I know he hates folding laundry, cleaning bathroom, etc].
But the biggest thing that concerns me the most in your situation, is that [as PPs have said] it appears he is holding it over your head, basically threatening that he won't propose until you do what he wants. Not cool. And also not a great way to start a marriage.
I mean, let's seriously think about this for a minute. Marriage is about two people who love each other, coming together as one for life and a promise to accept each other, in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, through the good and the bad.
What's going to happen if you get injured one day and literally can't clean up? If he can't compromise over something like who's turn it is to do the dishes, how will he compromise on the bigger things in life? If he's holding a proposal over your head over something like this, what's next? He finally proposes, but won't set a date until you promise to vacuum twice a day? You can't have kids until you can cook every single meal listed in the 'Joy of Cooking' book?
I'm sorry but I'm just... so frustrated for you. Especially because I feel I can relate in a sense, in terms of my SO being the crazy neat one, etc. It just breaks my heart that you're going through something like this, over something that can easily be worked through... but he isn't willing to because he's a "50/50" type.
He needs to understand that marriage isn't always 50/50. Sometimes it's 80/20, 90/10, or even 99/1.
It's a partnership, you work together. It's not "well, I did this, so now you have to do that."
I really hope you can work through this, keep us posted! *hugs*
ejs4y8- I was JUST about to say this too! There have been a LOT of discussions around here about "i do everything, my SO, the man, does nothing" and the conversation always ends up being that you should talk to him about it and try to divide tasks up better, even come up with a chore chart. And here, it's considered ridiculous when it's the other way around?
I'm sure HE doesn't want to be stuck doing everything just like she doesn't! And I agree with what another poster said: 6 months is plenty of time to have set habits and for the bf to be worried. I also didn't read this as him saying, clean up your act or no ring, but more of, I don't know if I want to be stuck cleaning up the house and being the bread winner (maybe) for the rest of our lives and she does little.
I agree with what's been said above, but just wanted to throw out another idea. If he doesn't want to do a chore chart, how about you both decide on a day to clean the whole house together? It doesn't matter what each of you does as long as you're both working during that time and the house gets clean. The rest of the week is just a little bit of maintenance cleaning. If you cook, he cleans up and vice versa. If you both cook together, you both clean up together. Alternate who takes out the trash each time. Other than that, what else is there to do during the week? This is how my husband and I handle things and it works great for us.
Another thing to consider is maybe he just doesn't realize how much you're doing because he doesn't see it. Make it a bit more in your face. If you're home 1st, wait to take dishes out of the dishwasher until he's about to come home so he catches you in the act. You don't have to put on a show forever, but just long enough to make him realize that you're doing more than he knows.
Thanks ladies, there's been so many amazing tips and advice. So I've done a little of everything....
@authentic: "It's a partnership, you work together. It's not "well, I did this, so now you have to do that."
Authentic, you've pretty much summed up how things are supposed to be. I've voiced this to my man and he is beginning to see that its not about equality. However its going to take a bit of time.
@amour toujour: This is what ended up happening over the weekend! We had a chat and agreed that we do housechores once a week then the next day, I piped up and suggested we do a cleanup and he was more then happy to take on certain roles without pushing who does what. At one point when I was too busy to complete a task because I had my hands full with something else, he stepped in. So the whole "partnership" thing is clicking in, yay!
Well, one thing my friends noted was that its his house and he works from home so he sees what needs to be cleaned most of the time whereas I get home and ignore my surroundings other then make dinner, then both of us clean the kitchen and relax in front of the TV after a rough day at work. Then on weekends, I clean whatever I see is dirty, no routine as such. I'm more complacent about mess (big on cleaning up dirt!) was probably what urked him so now we've made it a weekend thing, I'm going to try to be more proactive/ observant and be communicative so that he is aware that I AM aware what needs to be done and we'll do it together!
@prettyflowers: "I feel it is kind of BS that he's auditioning you for marriage, so to speak. I hope you can take back some of the power. Maybe YOU don't want to marry HIM unless he stops acting like a d-bag about the chores!"
Yeh, about hesitating-to-propose comment, that's how I feel! I've questioned him about it but his been dodging bullets to avoid answering it, so I'm going to leave it til we have a conversation in relation to this and work something out. No one likes to be tested like that!
I'm glad to see that you addressed the situation. All I could think while reading the original post was "Does she was to marry someone who treats her like an equal or like a child?" I'd be fuming if SO ever treated me like that. I totally thought what prettyflowers said was right on!
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My bf and I had a fight the other day because he feels I’m not taking on equal responsibilities. We have been dating 2 years and moved in together 6 months ago so have been very stressed with setting up house. He is very do-it-yourself (he has no experience in gardens but built the backyard from ground up) and always making sure the house is spotless but I just can’t keep up, though I believe I do my equal share of housework. I cook better then most of my friends and have done cleaning at around the house once a week. He’s a very 50/50 kind of guy and its starting to grate on my nerves as I never know where the 50% boundary lies. Isn’t equality subjective? I’ve suggest a roster as I feel this is the best way as then he can’t complain if something isn’t done. However he finds this demeaning and that we’re adult enough to just get stuff done around the house.
On the day we fought about housework, he made mention that if pets or kids are involved, he doesn’t believe I can handle it. THEN he said he now has hesitations of proposing in the next year and wants to see how things go. I’m quite heartbroken as he had been hinting of proposal during our next trip end of this year. Other then this issue, we are so compatible and he treats me perfect, its just hard to work with this equality thing when I’m always the type to expect less and be happily surprised when I get more.
I've only started "waiting" when we realized we love each other's company so much that it feels natural to move in together, but now I feel like its more a test if I'm worthy to be his wife. Any advice or similar experiences?