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assuming that you will have more than one child (let's just say two or three)? DH and I are moving in the spring and I would really like to buy an apt, but we would most likely only be able to afford a two bedroom in the area that we want to live in. Would it make sense to buy a two bedroom, or do you think that with more than one child, we would outgrow it too fast for it to be practical?
Let me also say that we live in NYC, so we're never going to have massive, 3000sq ft houses/apts like you can get in other parts of the country :) Unless we move! So we're used to living in what some people might consider "smaller spaces".
I would say until you have a third child. The two can easily share a room but knowing how small NYC bedrooms are 3 kids will be really pushing it. But I guess in the first 6 months of the third childs life they could sleep in your bedroom in a crib?
@Gerbera: That's what I have been thinking...plus, I figure when the first two get older, you can do bunk bed, and then put a crib/toddler bed in the room as well. So it would obviously need to not be a closet sized bedroom, lol.
It depends. My brother and I grew up sharing a very large bedroom with our parents until I was 10 years old (I'm older). So yeah, my parents went 10 years with zero privacy!
I would think that if the bedrooms are a decent size you could have both kids just sleep in the one room for several years. Depends on their age difference as well.
FI and I live in a 1 bed + den right now and we could handle a baby in here but it would be really tight. If we had a 2 bedroom I would say that I would prefer to buy a bigger place once baby # 2 came, but house prices are not that crazy where I am so we can afford it.
hahah Yes. You would want a apt with two REAL bedrooms. Not one real bedroom and the second one that's a poor excuse of a bedroom like most NYC places are!
I wish you luck! Are you considering other boroughs besides Manhattan? You'll likely be able to get more bang for your buck.
What about condos or townhomes? I know friends of my brothers who were able to get really good deals on townhomes in upcoming neighborhoods. Now their homes are worth like 3x as much!
ETA: I'm totally putting on my NYC mentality for this post! I'm spoiled now and live upstate and we just purchased a 2700SF house!
But I grew up in a small 2 bedroom apt in Chinatown. My brothers slept in bunk beds in the living room (very long), I slept in the same bedroom as my parents and the second room was rented out to relatives to supplement rent. We bought a house when I was in the 5th grade in Queens, which was a dream of my dad's.
You make do.
I wouldn't be comfortable with two bedrooms with more than one child.
But I also believe in babies sleeping in their own room and that doesn't really allow two kids to share a room very well (crying baby waking up older child consistently).
I think I would be comfortable living in a 2 bedroom apartment with two kids, but not three. I would be fine with that arrangement through teenage years, unless the kids were different sexes, in which case I would want them to have separate rooms around jr. high/middle school.
Fwiw, I grew in a 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom house (less than 1000 square feet) with 6 people. So I have no issues with kids sharing rooms/bathrooms and smaller spaces. :)
@Ms. Martian: Wow! I definitely don't think I could handle that, so kudos to your parents--and to you! Do you think that you would convert your den into a 2nd bedroom, or would you keep the baby with you and look for a bigger place?
@Gerbera: We're looking at Brooklyn Heights too, but it's a very very tight market there, and wer're a bit hesitant to buy in an area that we've never lived in before.
@Mrs.KMM: Yeah, I guess it depends on the kids (whether the baby is really fussy, whether the older kid has sleep problems, etc). I feel like that should be a bigger issue that it actually is, as I"ve seen a lot of people with kids sharing a room and there haven't been any problems with the baby constantly waking the toddler up. Maybe toddlers are just deep sleepers! As parents, we would also have to be on top of any crying that did happen though. Not sure how you would do CIO in that situation.
@Mrs. Spring: Definitely agree with different sexes having different rooms once they get toward puberty. And wow! One of the necessities in our next place is that it has at least 1.5 bathrooms--I don't think I could manage with just one AND kids (but I guess you make it work if you have to!).
@Gerbera: Yeah, if you're willing to buy in an as-yet underdeveloped area like Harlem or further out in brooklyn, we could definitely swing a much bigger place. But location is one of the most important things to us, and I personally wouldn't really feel comfortable living in an area that is still up and coming in that way. I definitely hear ya about making it work when you have to, though!
I agree with pp that for us two kids would be the maximum for a 2 bedroom place.. Having said that we have a baby on the way and only have a one bedroom apartment!! how crazy! we have plans to move to a 2 bedroom place though.
Just put your ear on the ground, so to speak. On upcoming neighborhoods and such. If anything if the neighborhood grows your value will grow and will be added cash for a bigger place in the future.
I know when we were still on the fence about NYC or Upstate I was able to find online articles and blogs about "best affordable" neighborhoods to live in NYC. "Upcoming" Neighborhoods and such. Neighborhoods that are still relatively cheap -in comparison- but are very similar to other desirable neighborhoods.
There are SO many cute neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens. Anddd I don't know if you would consider SI but def much much cheaper.
@hilsy85: we're in a two bedroom city (Boston) townhouse. DH works from home so we're using the second bedroom as his office. When our son arrives in December we'll share a large bedroom for a little while. Then we'll probably be forced to move to a 3 bedroom.
IMO, I think living in the city in a smaller space is worth so much more than moving to the 'burbs (or further!) with 3000 sf! We bought a home in Upstate NY because we thought it was beautiful (it is!) and that we'd want to raise a family there. We lived there for exactly 8 weeks before running back to our city, lol. We've since sold that house and are hoping to find something next summer. But I'm not willing to leave the city again, so I can wait for as long as it takes. ;)
@hilsy85: Now, when we go back to visit my parents, I have no clue how we survived with only bathroom, lol. You just make do with what you got, I guess!
http://nymag.com/realestate/articles/affordable/
This is the article I was thinking of!
Found a couple more:
http://www.urbanedgeny.com/top-10-real-estate/nyc-affordable-neighborhoods
http://bestplaces.nydailynews.com/guides/best-places-live-new-york-city-families
http://www.myfirstapartment.com/2011/02/introducing-hudson-heights-an-affordable-nyc-neighborhood/
I LOVED Ditmas Park! The houses were so cute!
FWIW, my brother lives in Oakland Gardens in Queens (basically Bayside). One of the best public school districts in the city, his major factor for buying there. It's about a 15min drive to the city. Not very accessible via public transportation though. But it's ridiculously close to LIC.
@hilsy85: Because I work from home my office is in the den so we would absolutely need to move to a bigger place. Even a bassinet would barely fit into our bedroom. We don't plan on TTC for at least a year so far now we're ok, but I'm hoping by the end of next year to start looking for a bigger place.
Good luck!! I know this all too well since I also work in real estate and I live in one of the most expensive cities for real estate in NA.
I'm thinking the same thing as many. Two kids can share a room (even 3 if they REALLY have to). When they're little, it's not really a big deal if they are different genders. It's all about space optimization ;)
Like many PPs, I think 2 kids sharing a room in a 2 bedroom is no biggie. If they're the same genders I think they can share until they're off to college, but if they're different genders, I think they need their own rooms by the time they're around 10 years old. So I guess I'm saying I could work with a 2 bedroom, w/ 2 kids for up to 10 years... after that, or if you're thinking of more than 2 kids, you may need a little more space. I personally like smaller homes, which is why my DH and I purchased our 1000 s/f 3 bed/2 bath ranch a few years ago!
@rachiecakes: haha oh I totally agree...I don't see us making the trip to the burbs any time soon--in part because that would require me to really learn how to drive, which scares me! I LOVE boston--such a cute city!
@Gerbera: I've actually read some of those articles before, lol. There's no way we would ever move to Staten Island or NJ--the commute for DH would be awful and there's that whole driving thing that I mentioned above :) not to mention, I would feel so isolated from the city, especially in SI where you need to depend on a ferry. We actually grew up in Forest Hills, Queens, which is mentioned as a great place. And it is! If only we didn't grown up there, lol--it would just be too weird to move back and live a few blocks away from our parents. We basically know where we want to live, and we're not terribly flexible on that (maybe that's our problem!). Our two options both have a ton of shopping/restaurants, are close to good schools, are near a ton of transportation, and have a really nice, safe neighborhood-y feel. But I really appreciate your viewpoint, especially as someone who did make the move out of the city!
@Ms. Martian: Gotcha. Well, good luck with the search when it's time. :)
@amidette: Exactly! I imagine we would make frequent trips to the container store :)
I hear ya on tight city living. Depends on the sex of the kids I think. If they are different sexes, I'd only want them to share until 5-6 years old. But if they are same sex, then 2 can share for a lot longer, though ideally not in high school for their own sake if I could swing it. I'd also want to move definitely after the 3rd kid (the kid could have a crib in our bedroom for ~6 months, but that's about it).
I shared with my sister (who is 3 years older) when I was 5-8, then again in the next city 9-11 yo, and we again "shared" two upstairs rooms for 7 months of high school until my mom decided it was a bad idea (we both prefered one particular room). I probably shared pre-5, I just don't remember it.
Same gender: FOREVER
different genders: right before puberty.
and I totally think you can fit more than 2-3 kids in a 2 bedroom; I think the bathroom issue would be a bigger deal.
But I grew up in a TINY 2 bed, 1 bath apt in NYC and we always had relatives living with us right up until I went to college, so my tolerance level is different.
As long as you dont have a lot of people staying over all the time, It's whatever to me. During the summer, people will be away at camp. You just make it work.
@Aubergold: Ha that's true--I'll ship 'em off for all 12 weeks as soon as they're walking! 
hillsy - i am also a new york bee, if you dont mind me asking, which two neighborhoods are you looking at?
@nikinyc: We live in the UWS now and are either staying here or moving to Brooklyn Heights (which is probably not going to happen because the market there is SO tight--literally, there are like a handful of apartments available in our price range/needed size).
I would say until child number three or until the kids are a tad older like 5-6 They are getting bigger and needing more space to play and sleep etc. So I guess it also depends on how far apart you plan on having the children. What I have learned since becoming a mother is you always are able to use what you have and make it work! If thats what you can afford right now that will get you by for some years! I wouldnt stress to much :)
oh i know, i live in Soho now and they are raising the rent so much that while we can still afford it without much strain, i feel bad for spending all that instead of saving towards for an apartment. Looking to brooklyn heights now. It is luxury high rise manhattan prices but at least a little bigger which i feel like i am ready for.
@nikinyc: Yeah BK has some really gorgeous apartments, but practically nothing for rent...to buy is definitely cheaper than Manhattan, but we're hesitant to buy there since we've never lived in that area before and don't know for sure how much we would like it. Soho is definitely a more expensive area than the UWS though--I also don't think DH and I are cool enough to live downtown :)
@organizedbride11: Ha yeah that seems to be the common thread--you make it work when you have to! :)
yeah Soho is pretty crazy. we are paying at least 30-40% more in rent than what we would pay in mortgage payments for a comparable place in manhattan but i like renting and i like downtown cool... i also like not being responsible when things break and i like having my options open in terms of moving... i guess i still have growing up to do (i am 30 btw :-P)
@nikinyc: My dh feels the same way...he likes not being responsible for repairs! It's also scary to think about having to re-sell an apt whenever we do eventually grow out of it.
ha, my DH (ooh, first time typing that!) and i have this debate all the time! basically we're deciding between renting and buying based on how long we think we could last in the city (UWS) with kids. we want 2 kids, and for us, we figure as soon as they are school age, we will want to move somewhere with a good school district that we can afford. But if you get 2BR 2BA, you can absolutely live in that with 2 kids for a long enough time that buying now (especially if you have no kids) is totally worth it. you likely will only need to live there for around 5-6 years for it to really pay off as an investment in NYC, i think.
we currently share a studio, so 2BR sounds like a mansion to me, haha.
We are facing this same issue as well, lol! We are trying to buy a 2 bedroom apartment on the UWS and I wonder the exact same thing about how soon we will outgrow it if we have kids. Honestly, I think the answer to that depends on what kind of a person you are, some people I know actually make do with a family of 4 in a studio!!! Others would scoff at the idea of having anything less than a 3 bedroom home with only one child.
I think regardless of how large the unit is or what amenities the building has (playroom, roofdeck, gym, etc.) we will grow out of it when our potential children get old enough to want to start going out on their own, like maybe around 8 or 9. Also at that age, that's when they will start to need privacy. Until then, they can manage in at least a 9X9 room with bunkbeds and they would never need to leave the apartment without a parent.
And of course we worry about what the economy is going to do - people are taking huge baths right now who are selling. It is definitely a good time to buy. But then you worry about what will happen when you're ready to sell.. will they go down even further? There is no answer. But tax-wise it's always better to own!
@hilsy85: Also, if you go coop keep in mind the building is responsible for most repairs, even interior. You want to make sure it's a reputable management company and financially sound though, which your attorney can weigh in on.
@moderndaisy: @esqbee: Sounds like we're all in very similar situations, lol. Do you guys also stalk apts on streeteasy?
@moderndaisy:Definitely a lot of good points...I agree that the amount of space you need depends on your family/what you prioritize. Our friends who live in Texas are shocked at what is considered "big" in NYC! Re sale is a huuuge concern, especially since DH really wants more than 2 kids--I see how long apts sit on the market now and I'm not excited about being in that position. As for co-ops, that's true that they're responsible for a lot of stuff--but the monthly maintenance on those apts is so freakin high! I can't fathom paying over 2k a month in maintenance, which is what it is for some of teh nicer buildings on the uws--it's crazy.
@esqbee: Whoa, kudos to you guys for making a studio work! We actually debated me moving into DH's studio when we first moved in together and I think we could have managed...but we moved to a 1 bedroom instead, which was a really nice change (plus, the bathroom wasn't RIGHT NEXT to the bed, like it was in his studio, which made for some awkward moments early in our relationship, lol).
@hilsy85: I am all over streeteasy and right now I'm stalking the apt we made an offer on that was accepted to see if they hold another open house. Nothing is set in stone until the contract is signed and you are board approved!
Be careful with the maintenance. There are some good articles online that explain coop maintenance line-by-line. Primarily maintenance is the underlying mortgage of the building itself which is tax-deductible, but anything on top of that like a doorman, concierge, handyman, etc. is not tax deductible. And you want to make sure the coop actually owns a significant amount of the building, otherwise the maintenance goes up and you are less likely to get a bank to sign off on the loan, etc.
But anyway, yes I think anyone who buys a 2 bedroom apartment in NYC is taking a risk because the truth is you don't know how long it will take you to sell and you can't predict if you'll actually make a profit. It's also very expensive to sell, you are normally subject to a flip tax, broker fees, and some other tax that is like 2% of the sale price. The people who own teh apt we are trying to buy are pissed bc they are losing over $200K just on the value of the home alone and on top of that have to pay all of those fees.
One thing you might want to consider is possibly downgrading on the building (not location) and buying a convertable 3. That might be a better long-term strategy where you wouldn't feel so desperate to move after 5 years.
@hilsy85: haha, we make it work, but yes we STALK nytimes, streeteasy, you name it! problem is, i own my place, so in order for us to move, we need to sell first, which puts us probably a year out (i want to fix it up a bit before putting it on the market). and each year that passes, well, you know...kids are on the horizon and that makes purchasing scary! I dream of having a bedroom door and 2 bathrooms though, haha.
also, keep in mind that although maintenance is high in a coop, you get around half of it back as a tax deduction (exact amount varies by building) and that includes your payment of real estate taxes - there are no taxes on top of that. so that's at least something. condo you'll pay taxes separately.
@moderndaisy: most listings do tell you what portion is tax-deductible - but i'm guessing that's not a legal requirement. Sounds like you've done quite a lot of research!!
(BTW did you hear priscilla of boston closed? i totally thought of you!)
I think you could make it work with up to 2 kids, forever, if they are the same sex. My sister & I shared rooms until I was 21! I think if the kids are different sexes then you could make it work until they get old enough to not be able to get dressed around one another lol (7?)
DH & I live in a 1 bedroom apartment in Downtown Jersey City..we plan on having our 1st child there and living there till the baby is at most 2..then we will buy at least a 2 bedroom somewhere!
Just FYI, I know you said not Jersey, but you should consider my area or Hoboken--you could get a 3 bedroom for a lot less than Manhattan prices. We live across the street from the PATH and our commute into downtown manhattan is 5 minutes... I was born & raised on Staten Islandand the commute into Manhattan is a nightmare! ugh 1.5-2 hours by bus (with traffic) each way..ughghg I'm cringing jsut thinking about it. So moving from SI to Jersey City was amazing,but it's no Manhattan =)
@esqbee: They normally only list the tax deduction if it's over 40% because otherwise it would make the property a lot less appealing off the bat, lol! I definitley think coops are a better choice at least in the short term financially because they cost less, are cheaper to buy and the maintenance is usually lower and more tax deductible. But then you don't have the flexibility of renting it out depending on the building rules.
(Yes I heard POB closed and it was bittersweet. They treated me terribly, but I love my wedding gown so it's really too bad they aren't around anymore.)
@moderndaisy: yea i think you're right - coops definitely have huge pros and cons. you have to make sure you read the house rules and bylaws carefully! and i felt exactly the same about POB - i was just happy my dress came in before i heard the news (even though i bought it elsewhere).
@bride2bejc: ha, this made me think of a How I met your Mother episode when marshall and lily start doing all kinds of weird things to try to sway whether they conceive a boy or a girl...I guess these are the things you need to do to make it work in NY (or jersey) haha
to me the big deal is the school system. Even if i can afford a reasonable place size wise in the city, i dont want to be in the position where I have to pay $30K/year to send my kid to a good pre-school. I get that there are good public schools in the city but it is few and far in between and some of them are by lottery. A good public school system is key.
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