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So, someone showed me this article this morning:
It concerns the issue of NYC public schools beginning VERY in-depth sex ed classes. I was wondering... how much is too much?
Personally, I totally support comprehensive sex ed classes. I did a research paper in college on the negative effects of abstinence-only education. I do think that some things might be a little over the top though. I mean... a school sex ed class probably doesn't need to talk about beastiality and BDSM. Refer them to resources to find out about it like the article says, definitely... but probably don't cover that one in class. Oral, anal, masturbation, kissing, contraception, etc. I definitely agree with. I even agree with discussing porn and porn addiction with teens. A lot of my guys friend growing up had an issue with too much porn and I think this could be avoided with education.
I do think that it should fall on parents to educate their kids and make sure they are well-informed but the sad truth is that that simply does not happen a lot of the time. Whatever the reason for that, I do think that those kids do still need to know about it.
So, what are your opinions on this? What is too much to you and why?
Note: I do realize this is probably going to be fairly controversial but PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so please be respectful of that. No arguing or putting anyone down. I see it and I WILL flag you.
@zippylef: I share pretty much the same view you do.
My school did a very good job and started teaching very basic sex ed in 5th grade. They split up boys and girls and started talking about puberty and other changes. Then in middle school we had more comprehensive sex ed in both co-ed and single sex environments.
Our 8th grade biology class also went in depth into human reproduction, STDs, and sex for pleasure.
We didn't have any real discussion about porn/porn addiction though and definitely didn't have any discussions about the dangers of sex on the internet (i.e. chat rooms etc) which I think would have been good especially for when my contemporaries were in middle school and high school.
@zippylef - I totally agree with you on the comprehensive approach to teaching sex ed (though I think talking about beastiality may be taking it a little too far lol)!!! I teach at a community college and actually just gave my kids an article on sex ed vs. abstinence only education on which to write a response journal. The overwhelming majority of my students agree with us.
This further drives my point home, for me at least. I taught in the "Bible Belt" a couple of years ago where the students were not allowed to receive sex education (presumably because it encouraged fornication - gasp!). The two favorite forms of "birth control" were having sex standing up (gravity) and having your boyfriend drink Mt. Dew because it lowers sperm count. When I saw six girls all pregnant by the same guy (who thought it was oh so awesome), it tells me that we need to at least give kids the information to protect themselves. Two of these girls were in my mentor's English class the second semester I was down there (won't say where). Giving kids the information helps lessen the chance that we're turning out ignorant individuals with regard to their sexual health.
@karatechick27: That really makes me sad. It's my view that no matter what is taught, there are students who will be having sex and those who won't. You might as well teach safe sex and how to prevent pregnancy so those who are having sex don't look to old wives tales/the internet to figure out how to prevent pregnancy and/or STDs.
It's sad that these young kids end up with a life changing pregnancy or disease just because they weren't given a little bit of education that could have prevented it.
I wish that sex ed didn't have to be taught at school. I hated sex ed, especially at the later (we started in grade 4). In jr. high, I had a teacher who talked about what semen tasted like. In high school, I frequently felt singled out; we had to share our opinions by going to different sides of the room. We used to get visiting speakers as well, and I had the entire class snickering when someone who was HIV positive ask us who thought AIDS would not kill you. I was the only one who raised my hand, and was laughed at by others for being the only one who was correct (where all these other people were for the past 6 years of sex ed, I don't know). Luckily for me, by high school I really didn't care what the others thought, but it bothered me that they would have activities where people would be judged by others based on their opinions about sex.
Ideally, I would like to see parents/guardians teach their kids, but since they can't always be relied on, I think it does have to be taught.
I think I would have less of an issue if it was just taught as fact, and incorporated into health in the younger grades and science in the older grades.
I think schools that primarily teach abstinance should start teaching more fact...there will always be kids that have sex and if they dont know the risk, then they will just put themselves at risk.
We should have spent more time on STD's, I personally think. I know plenty of kids that should have seen picture proof that yes, you can get open sores on your privates.
For me, I just think schools should teach fact, and leave opinion out. Make condoms easily availible...not to promote sexual activity, but to allow those that are going to do it anyway have access to what they need. I think we just need to man up and realize that no matter how much we preach that kids shouldn't do it, they are going to anyway, so we might as well give them all fact.
I thought my school did a good job of it. We had opposite sex assemblies on 4th grade that were basically a series of talks on how the body works. Periods and sex and how you get pregnant. But very very very basic stuff. In 8th grade we had health and did a week of sex ed including contraception (generally) and an experiment I remember where we all got test tubes of clear liquid and then we had to walk around and share our liquid with other people (pour a little of ours into theirs, and a little of theirs into ours). We could do it as many or as few times as we wanted to. At the end we were told that to start, 1 vial had a chemical that would react with dye (i.e. to start one person "had" hiv), but then the teacher went around and put a drop of dye into each of our vials and those who turned blue had the "virus." So if you swapped with someone who had it-- you had it. It was basically to show how easy it is to spread it, and how you don't even have to have contact with the original person to have gotten it.
In 9th grade we had a whole semester of sex ed and the teacher was very explicit about all forms of contraception including making us put condoms on bananas. But, it was all very fact based and she spent a lot of time dispelling myths.
And only like 2-3 girls in my school got pregnant the whole time I was there, so I'd say it did a decent job.
I think making them go to the store and check prices and such for condoms is not actually a bad idea.Same with knowing where the local clinic is for getting tested and such.
I think the focus should be on the basics of what sex is, refuting myths (such as the gravity/mountain dew thing), STDs, and a healthy relationship (date rape, abuse, and such). Talking about beastiality and BDSM is too far IMO and not really something I would want a school teaching my kids.
Same thing with the card thing with 11-12 year olds. That's too much too early, IMO.
I wish they did a better job of teaching sex ed. Abstinence only teaching does not belong in schools, especially high schools. They need to stress safe sex because honestly, most kids are having sex in high school. And most people don't use condoms or birthc ontrol because they didn't know how to use them back then!
@CorgiTales: that actually sounds like a very good way to do it. I bet that HIV experiment opened a lot of eyes.
I grew up in Catholic schooling and we were given the very basics in 8th grade. By that point in time there were only 3 virgins left in my class. And this was about 20 years ago. The course they gave us was a joke. It was all about abstinence and it lasted about 30 minutes.
I know my 13yo has known about sex since he was 9 since I told him about it and if he has a serious question then I will answer it. They do teach sex ed as early as 5th grade here and IMHO it is not a bad thing. Too many parents bury their heads in the sand and think oh my child would never do anything like that. My son thought he was being funny the other day and asked me for a condom. Now I was at my OB's office and gave them to him afterwards. I know for a fact he is not having sex yet, he still hasn't gone through puberty yet. But I also want him to know that I would rather he be safe than sorry. Not all parents would do that. I see no point in hiding things from them.
Beastiality might be a little much, but I have to agree with the other items that are being discussed. So many kids think that if they are not having "sex" then they are safe. They don't consider oral as sex so therefore they can't catch anything. Sad but true.
I went to school in very very conservative counties/parishes in Texas and Louisiana, and they pushed abstinence at us very very hard. We were taught the basics of puberty, but almost nothing past that. The belief seemed to be that being taught comprehensive sex education was the same thing as encouraging us all to have sex.
It was doubly bad for kids like me, whose parents didn't sit down with us to have the talk. I mean no sort of talk...when I got my period the first time I thought I was dying (I started before we got the puberty class). Anything I knew about sex and pregnancy I learned from TV, the internet, or my older brothers. I was very lucky I didn't get pregnant when I was a teenager...much luckier than the two dozen or so girls who had gotten pregnant and/or had kids by the time we graduated (for some reference, there were approximately 150 girls in my graduating class).
I think it's super important to be informed about sex and everything that comes with is. The way I see it, kids are going to be having sex regardless, and I'd rather my children (and their partners) know how to protect themselves from unplanned pregnancies and STDs.
As for exactly how much, I do think that teaching kids about beastiality and BDSM is taking it too far.
@CorgiTales: That sounds like an experiment that would get younger people thinking.
I have to say, even though I went to a crazy high school we had a great sex-ed program. It was mostly to dispell myths, lots of questions and to teach us where to get pills, condoms, etc. In fact in our health room there was always a bowl of condoms there that were free to anyone who needed them. Also at my school we had a nurse who would come in every thursday and answer any questions you had about anything.
@CorgiTales: We did something similar, but it was way more regimented. We didn't have a choice who we shared with and who we didn't. I think the way it was done for you sounds way better!
I also got annoyed by the half truths in the younger grades. Things like "girls might have some minor cramps when they get their period". Yes, that's true, but they might also get horrible cramps, feel incredibly nauseous, get migraines, etc. There was also someone who asked a question in the 'question box' about shaving legs, and the teacher said there was no need to be doing that yet, but in a few years many of us would probably choose to. At that point I had been shaving/sugaring for over a year (I had my period already, and have light skin with dark hair).
@zippylef: I agree with your position too. Abstinence only education is no education at all.
I think mentioning the extracurricular activities (i.e. BDSM, beastiality, etc.) is a little too much for the school system-- especially since we can't already depend on public schools to do a great job with a more limited curriculum. I think an otherwise comprehensive sex ed class is crucial because I know I didn't want to ask my parents all the questions, even though we were very open with one another. I had gender segregated sex-ed in 4th and 5th grade-- if I remember correctly the 4th grade lesson was just a day. The 5th grade was a few weeks long (and I distinctly remember the boys having a female teacher!)
In middle school both boys and girls had "Health" class, which was half of the year-- alternating with Physical Education-- and included Sex Ed. In high school we only had to have two semesters of Gym/Health (yes, we had semesters) and again the course was split half between PE and half health, which included STDs, practices, etc.
I felt incredibly informed and capable of making decisions about my own body, but never once did I have to put a condom on a banana!
My fondest memory of health class in 10th grade was the video in which a bunch of "eggs" dressed in high heels stood at one end of a big swimming pool. A bunch of spermies lined up at the other end of the pool. At the whistle, all of the sperm dove in and 'raced' to get to the female eggs who were hooting and hollering with their pearl necklaces, heels and red lipstick. It was absolutely hilarious! Just imagine all of us 15 and 16 year olds watching that...loved it!
We had a great sex ed program. 5th grade, 8th grade and 10th grade we had extensive lessons and quizzes, etc.. I think mostly all material should be covered, but I think the line could be drawn before beastiality. Why is that necessary?
I didnt have sex in high school and I know many people that didnt. So I guess times have changed if the approach is that high schoolers will have sex anyway so they need to know EVERYTHING. I thought sex ed was about teaching the basics, talking about having safe sex, and the consequences of not doing so. I personally dont see the need to be taught about kissing is this really something that has to be taught? but most importantly I think teaching about bestiality is taking the whole thing too far
I agree with most of the PPs that a comprehensive sex ed class is important. Some kids are going to be having sex in middle school and high school (no matter what they are taught) so it is important that they know how to protect themselves from pregnancy and STDs.
But I also think that teaching kids about beastiality and BDSM is taking things too far.
@CorgiTales: I really like that vial experiment your school did! I bet a lot of people where really surprised by the results.
I think the parents/guardians have the ultimate responsibility in teaching the children. I don't want strangers controlling the information and having free reign. I would want to also build a relationship with my child on the level where we can talk openly about the subject, and they shouldn't feel weird asking questions/open communication.
But I realize this isn't going to happen. Not every parent has a relationship with their child, is around, comfortable etc.
Sometimes it's hard to remember what sex ed was like - we got it both in 5th grade and then again in high school. 5th grade was about puberty and high school was more about sex.I think it was mostly abstinence based, but there were no live births in my graduating class (obviously who knows if there were any terminated pregnancies). I and the 9 or 10 girls in my clique did not have sex before leaving high school. So I would say it worked pretty well. It worked well for ME anyway.
I will say if there are only 2 virgins left in an 8th grade class, then there is something very wrong with that community. The normal biological consequence of heterosexual sex is pregnancy, and pregnancy is physically a disaster for a pre-teen. Regardless of the choice of contraceptive, it remains a risk. When are children who are 10, 11 or 12 getting the private time to have sex? Where are their parents? Sex is serious business with serious results, it's not child's play.
Frankly I've never met a high schooler who was organized enough emotionally to have sex responsibly, regardless of the amount of sex ed. It doesn't really matter if you know how to put on a condom if you haven't developed enough to handle the mental and emotional complexities of sex. I take that back, there were several women senior year who I think could have handled it properly. But I didn't know what guys they would be sleeping with since NONE of the guys in our school were mature enough to be a good sex partner. IMHO.
In parental sex ed, my parents took the tack of explaining to us that only stupid kids took the high risk of having sex in high school- they weren't going to be successful people, anyway, so it didn't really matter if the condom broke or the Pill failed. Kids who were intelligent and thought about their future, wanted careers etc didn't do that. This made a big impression on me too and I've always wondered about it. I'd love to see a study done on IQ and age of onset of sexual activity.
At the end of the day, the American public schools in general are pretty lousy (we've been falling behind/treading water for a long time in math, reading etc). Do we trust them to do a good job with sex ed of ANY kind?
I only remember one class that could be considered sex ed and parents were allowed to sign a waiver to have their kids put in a different classroom so they didn't attend. I don't remember one thing about the class---so I guess that tells you how effective it was. I learned everything I know from the internet and experience.
For a conservative area, I think my SD did fairly well.
In 5th we had divded "human growth and development" for girls it was girl body parts periods, tampons, pads, etc, I'm not sure what the boys covered. I already had my period by this point so it wasn't much help for me.
I think it was 9th and & 11th we covered in Helth more sex ed (we did some vague STI stuff in middle school health but it was more like a longer version of DARE). On top of other health issues (cancer, body systems, mental health, dieting, etc) we talked about stages of development, each gender's specific parts and what they are for, contraception (including but not just abstinance though they brought in someone who was for waiting but was from pregnancy services and talked about that a bit), risk levels of various types of behavior, the effects on behavior with relationships- that sort of thing.
We didn't have sort of pregnancy services in the near area and we didn't cover positions at all. Nor did we talk about fetishes.
I think the school should not be responisble for all of the sex education the children receives. While my mom didn't fill in all the holes (DH has to laugh at how naive I managed to stay through everything) she told me enough.
@Magdalena: I've been having sex since I was 14, and don't regret it! I can send you my CV if you're interested in studying my intelligence!
Plus, that article's headline is ridiculously sensationalistic and irresponsible. 1. OF COURSE we should teach teenagers about oral sex, hopefully before they try to do it. 2. The classes in NYC may incorporate "Go Ask Alice," a website which fields questions on bestiality, and therefore the classes are teaching "about" bestiality? Oh puh-lease.
hmm.. i think that maybe parents who think telling their kids not to have sex is the way to teach them, forget that they most likely had sex in highschool. Lets not forget that most of our grandparents were having sex/babies and were married before 18 years old.
I believe that telling a horny 16 yr old to just not do it, or that abstinence is all there is, is ignorant. If the odds are astronomical that they WILL be participating in some sexual activities, why not educate them on the risks instead of pretending its not going to happen.
I think schools should teach comprehensive sex ed because the fact is, kids will have sex, so they should really be prepared to understand what's going on and how to protect themselves. I think that the responsibility for sex education does fall on the parents. However, the reality is, some parents either don't care or just won't teach their kids anything. Some kids also need to hear it from someone other than their parents in order to believe it, also. ;-)
I do think, though, that they should be optional and that if parents are not comfortable with the material, they should have the right to ask for an alternate activity for their child. At the end of the day, they're kids until the are 18 and their parents should have the final say. Right or wrong, whether they'll do a good job on their own or what, the parents should have that right.
I think it sounds like a great and informative plan. It's SOOO important to learn sex ed, and while I hope parents talk to their kids, not all do. So, I think having a comprehensive education in school teaching kids how to protect themselves while exploring sexuality is important.
As far as the beastiality and stuff - I honestly don't think it goes to far. Kids are curious about that kind of stuff. I don't think it needs to be something covered in depth, but I think touching on it and giving kids a forum to ask questions is good.
Comprehensive sex ed, revisiting the topic each year in more complex ways and creating a space in which kids feel comfortable asking questions. And this comes from someone who was SUPER squeamish about "human growth and development" back in the day! As a previous poster said -- my HS was in a conservative area, but because the funding came at the state level, we actually had a very sensible approach to the topic.
Ultimately, I think it's amusing that folks believe that parents could even have "the final say" over what kids learn about sex (or violence, or religion, or politics...) We live in a very media connected culture. Kids are curious. It's important to have the kind of relationship with your kid where you can talk about things with them and contextualize them, but to think you're going to control their awareness of these topics is kind of naive.
@piglet_625: I think it's similar to the vaccine thing. You vaccinate most people, so that if someone isn't vaccinated, it's not that big a deal. You try to get as many teens into sex ed as possible - that way when they hook up with one of the homeschoolers, at least one person knows what the clit is. Herd immunity, for sexytimes.
@Beluga: Hey! Watch it there girly :P I was homeschooled and successfully made it to do adulthood without getting pregnant or diseased. Heck, I didn't even have sex ed but living on a farm, you tend to figure it out.
My mom went from the period talk straight to birth control. I always wondered what she'd have said if I asked what sex was!
@Beluga: I think we need your video again! :-) Maybe you should travel around and show that in schools!
@Lindsay12.31.2010: The really sad thing is I actually volunteer as a sex educator. I hope you're all fucking terrified right now, because I am.
@Beluga: Let me tell you, I learned NOTHING at school about sex, other than that I'd get a period someday. Everything I learned was through awkward conversations with my mom. Thankfully we had an open relationship or I would never learn. It's terrifying.
I never got taught sex ed at school. And I think that was a huge failing of the school. Because I didnt really get sex ed from my parents either, I ended up walking through puberty completely confused about everything to do with body changes and sex. I guess the school's main aim was "dont talk about it and nothing bad will happen," and theoretically that approach worked because no one at the school got pregnant while I was there (there was also a six inch rule between male and female students, which I didnt follow, ha!)....BUT their approach did nothing to help us have a healthy understanding of sex once we left the school.
My sisters are still at that school, in the dorm, and just last month three of their dorm "brothers" were caught spying on girls in the showers. Apparently they had been doing it for months. Because sexuality is such a hidden, protected thing in that society, my sisters and the other girls have no idea how to cope or deal with their feelings of shame since this happened. They feel too guilty to talk about it (even though it is not their fault of course).The boys were expelled. Maybe if they had been able to express their questions and feelings about sex in a more healthy way this never would have happened? Who knows...but I do think their definitely needs to be a proper sex ed programme at that school.
My mother was a biology teacher. She was the first bio teacher to teach reproduction in New York City Catholic schools (this was in the 60s and she had to convince higher ups that it was the right thing to do).
Needless to say, I knew anatomy and reproduction by the time I was in kindergarten. I was never curious. I do remember her having to tell me about some slang terms in 3rd or 4th grade when I was a huge Madonna fan and Like a Virgin came out.
I think that because I was given all the information up front, I was able to make better decisions later in life.
Now, oral sex and beastiality? I don't think that needs to be there. Reproduction and contraception (including giving girls the tools to understand their cycles) should definitely be taught.
FWIW, the first kids started "going out" in 3rd grade at my school (and this was in the 80s). I think 4th grade is too late to start the conversation.
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