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So I have a question about the last bit about usernames...what if someone already has their business name in their username? Do they have to quit weddingbee? I think its against the rules for them to create a new profile.
@kate169: i just put that in there because it has come up in alot of the other threads and makes sense. I mean if you are not allowed to self-promote your business, how is it justified that your username is your business name? i would think that if a new vendor joins and does this, they should be notified right away and given the chance to deactivate that account before they build a lot of posts and start a new one. that's my take on it.
@PurpleUnicorn: This is the most sober and sensible response I have seen to this whole Mitagosh
Well done love, I think that clarifies it nicely.
I think it looks great! Thanks for doing something productive about the situation!
I just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I'm in a sewing class right now but when I get home I'll review it more closely, discuss with the other mods, and we'll keep working on this collectively. I think a cooperative, constructive group effort is definitely the best path forward!
fantastic idea @purpleunicorn! I think you did a great job!
@bakerella: threadjack alert: sewing class sounds fun - I don't suppose you cross-stitch at all?
@PurpleUnicorn: Thanks for this response. I really like it. However, there are some bees, I think Pizzti Studios who has been on here for years and has her name on there. She joined before that particular rule took effect I think. Anyhow, I really love your response and it does address a lot of the issues the photographers have. I was/still am really surprised at the fact that a lot of bees don't really appreciate how much these photography bees help. I've had a bunch of them check out photographers, look at websites, strategize etc in order to make sure I get really really great wedding pictures so I would love to see them continue on the site. However, is it okay for them to mention that someone proceeds with caution when using a friendor and/or amateur based on the fact that they too have seen lots of pictures and devastating stories of how these pictures don't turn out right? E.g., I remember USER counseling someone to use an amateur but that she should protect herself by getting a contract etc. Another one said if she could afford it, maybe instead of an amateur for 10 hours, one could get a pro for 4/5 hours. I don't think that's bad advice though. Or is it?? Anyhow, thanks for your help.
@bRooklynRocks: I think for the username, you could be grandfathered in. Say, if your account was started before 10/1/11 or some date in the past, you are allowed to keep it, but going forward, you cannot have your studio name obviously in your username.
@bRooklynRocks: i don't think any of that stuff is bad advice and i don't think it would violate what i posted above. i purposely used words like "only" and "will guarantee" to differentiate between telling someone they only have one option (which is what i think the TOS is trying to say), versus giving advice/opionions on different options. So saying "you may want to be careful with a friendor" or "consider hiring a pro for a shorter amount of time" is one option, but it is not saying that it is the ONLY option. It is simply their professional opinion.
@hisgoosiegirl: that's a good idea about the grandfathering in usernames.
@bRooklynRocks: I think that type of advice would be fine, because it's not saying the only way to get good photos is to hire a pro, it's helping someone decide between services. I think the spirit of the rule is to just eliminate pros saying that people's wedding will suck without them.
the difference is essentially that the current TOS says "don't promote your industry" - and that can be (and has been recently) interpreted in many different ways. Whereas making it more specific to say "don't promote your industry as the only viable option" leaves less room for misinterpretation.
Okay, good looking. I do think though that if someone doesn't want to lose her username, she doesn't have to change it because they wouldn't know who she is. Take me for example, I wouldn't want to change my name :)
Not to beat a dead horse but if I'm understanding this correctly...
Non "pros" are free to say something like "you won't get good wedding pictures unless you hire a pro" but "Pros" can't? Where is the distinction on who is a pro and who isn't? Am I a "pro" or a bride? I dont understand where the qualification on who is a pro and who isn't is. You could come on here and pretend not to be a pro or pretend to be a pro. I honestly feel if there are going to be rules that apply to pros then there should be a way to distinguish who is who.
@bakerella: also... woot for sewing class. <3 sewing
and glad compromises can be made!
@kate169: true. i was just going off the TOS section that is under "Vendor Participation" and worked from there. It has been brought up on the other threads that people posting on here as pros should identify them as such with a label under their user name. i think that's a good idea too. As for someone coming on here and pretending they are not a professional, well, the way i see it, if all they say is "hire a pro or your pictures will suck" then it will have as much influence as a non-pro anyway - they would basically be writing/posting/appearing as a non-pro, so i guess i don't see the difference. If they choose to present themselves one way, then who cares what they do in real life. But if they want to give advice from their expertise and identify themselves as a professional, then i would think they would never just say "hire a pro or else your pics will suck", they would have to back that up with something - their knowledge. And in that case, according to the TOS i drafted, they could say "a pro photog would give you X, Y, and Z", but they couldn't say "the only way to get X, Y, Z is to hire a professional". In the first statement they are not eliminating other possibilities - they are just sticking to their area of expertise. In the second statement, they are saying there is only one option/way to get things done right.
@bRooklynRocks: thats why i like hisgoosiegirl's idea of keeping usernames if they already have them, but from now on, the rule could be implemented.
@PurpleUnicorn: Thanks for this draft. I agree with the vendor username thing, but it would open a can of worms for people already here. Or maybe we should be required to register as a pro? Also, there could be some pro's hiding behind usernames, maybe that is the best route for us. Maybe I will QUIT my business and become one of the regular bunch so these rules don't apply to me! I think these rules should apply to all, not just pro's.
But what if someone posted they were thinking of using a really really horrid amateur by proof of samples for free and in this case anything would be better.....and people start telling them this, that they need to hire someone with experience, even if it's on the cheap. This would be terms for banning per the rules.
And to the others, thanks for your support. We don't just tell people to hire pro's, we give sound advice on many different topics, including evaluating non-pro's for the bes option, discussing insider pricing, pro photographer mentality when dealing with them for negotiations, packages, turn around, solving problems,etc, retouching issues, prints and albums, the list goes on.
As much as I hate to admit it, I think we are beating a dead horse here as people suggested. I only posted a clarification post so people would better understand the situation, not to stir drama or get a bandwagon going. I had no idea it would evolve to what it did. As the mods suggested, feedback was sent to them privately, including a draft of new language for their consideration. No response....
It's disappointing to me that the mods are so quiet among all of this, even when sample language was sent directly to them, and now this post. The courtesy of a followup post on their position would of been nice, but I doubt we will get it.
So, I think we all had enough, I had enough. I don't think there is any further reason to keep these threads going and I am not going to expend any more energy or time on this. This board needs to get back on topic, and the ball is in the mods court now.
So thank's to all that showed support via PM or direct post. I do look forward to continue to support this forum. If it doesn't work out, I am sure I will see some of you around the net.
@USER876: But what if someone posted they were thinking of using a really really horrid amateur by samples for free and in this case anything would be better.....and people start telling them this, that they need to hire someone with experience, even if it's on the cheap. This would be terms for banning per the rules.
I think based on my draft above, this would not be something ban-worthy as the advice you would give would not be "hire a pro, its only your option", you would say something more along the lines of "it might be worth it to do more research and invest in a different amateur because the samples you posted here are not good because of X, Y, and Z".
Basically, i wrote that section above on my understanding that the TOS is supposed to mean that you should not promote your industry as the only viable option.
@USER876: I haven't received any PM from you. Could you forward along your suggested changes to me or post them here? As I mentioned before, we're a team of volunteers, we're not on here all the time, so you may have to be patient in terms of a response time.
ETA - I did previously reply on this thread that I would review and comment this evening. I'm not trying to avoid this or be quiet, and I will respond, but I'm also taking classes and running a business, so unfortunately my volunteer position sometimes has to wait until I have a bit more free time to be able to devote myself properly to the type of attention this needs. I hope you'll understand where myself and the mod team are coming from, and we can work together cooperatively to clarify the TOS.
@bakerella: Thank you for your response. Please see the draft above, and more importantly the language that LB sent to DAYDREAM. I understand that daydream stepped down as a mod, but should be able to pass on that draft.
Again, appreciate the response.
I agree that the clarification was necessary and I think your wording is a very good suggestion.
Off topic but.... when the heck did DDW step down as a mod? Where was I, because it definitely still says hostess under her name?
@USER876: slight threadjack on my own thread to say: what? DDW stepped down as a mod? when? why?
@USER876: I did get some suggestions from LB, I thought you meant you had sent along some suggestions. I am reviewing LB's suggestions and drafting up a proposal of my own incorporating both. Bear with me here while I juggle a lot of balls...
@zippylef: I stepped down this weekend. There's some pretty major stuff going on in my personal life and I don't have the time that's required to be a moderator. I was asked to stay on as a hostess, but don't anticipate being around much for a while.
The site is in great hands though, and nothing should change. The mod team is, has been and I expect always will remain a team, so transitions are pretty seamless.
@daydreamwanderer: Well, I am sorry to hear that you are having issues in your personal life. I really hope that things start looking up for you soon. :( You will be missed around here.
@USER876: We're in the process of reviewing language and the new policy literally as I type this. I think it was mentioned before that as volunteers, hostesses and moderators can't be here 24/7, but that doesn't mean we're ignoring anyone. :)
Hey guys! Sorry for the delay, like I said, channels to work through. Anyway, here's what's been approved. I think you'll like it. It incorporates Purple Unicorn's suggestion as well as some suggestions from the Pros :) The changes are in bold. I think it's a lot clearer and more concise.
Vendor Participation on Weddingbee
Vendors are welcome to use the site for personal use, but not to promote their own company on the Boards, Bios, DIY, or Gallery pages - including links to their website, store, blog, or Facebook page. We also do not allow vendors to post their email address or phone number on the boards. Vendors who fail to comply with the following rules may have their accounts revoked at any time without warning.
Vendors may:
i. Promote their websites or businesses on Classifieds only.
ii. Post to the Boards, DIY, Gallery, and Bios (but not promote their business in any way).
iii. Offer technical and professional advice and opinions based on their area of expertise when asked of them.
Vendors may not:
i. Solicit customers on other users’ classified listings.
ii. Post to the boards to promote their website or businesses (including using signature lines, watermarked photos, or posting links to their business or blog, including in the monthly Share Your Blogs thread).
iii. Promote any industry in a way which expresses condescension toward choosing to forego a professional in said field (e.g. a planner posting about how hiring a wedding planner essential to the success of a wedding, or a DJ trash talking iPod receptions).
iv. Post to the Boards, DIY, Gallery or Bios to promote their business or website.
v. PM users to promote their business or solicit clients, except to reply to classified listings.
vi. Post contact information in the location field of their profile.
If you are interested in advertising on Weddingbee, please contact Mrs. Penguin for more information.
If you have any questions about these terms of service, please contact Mrs. DG.
@bakerella: AWESOME. Thank you :). I read it this morning, but WB wouldn't let me log in until just now. I think this really helps clarify things & now I feel I'm okay posting my opinion/ advice. Not to stir up drama, but under these new rules could BeeM be unbanned? The TOS weren't clear when she was banned, so maybe another chance under these clarified TOS would be fair in this case?
@serabell: As stated previously, BeeM was banned for a number of violations of the TOS and had received numerous warnings, not only for self-promotion as has been erroneously stated by non-moderator members. All members, pro or otherwise, are expected to adhere to the TOS and failure to do so results in banning. The rules apply to all and no exceptions can be made.
@bakerella: Ok, I didn't read all the other posts so wasn't quite sure of the other details about that situation. Again, thanks for clarifying. I appreciate all the time you & other MODS put into the TOS to help us out.
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Beekeeper
I just decided to do this for the heck of it since it was suggested by the mods as something they might consider - it only took a few minutes. Also, I really think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion and needs a conclusion. I understand where User876 and the other pros are coming from - the TOS is confusing and unclear. I only understood the vendor rules myself after the mods clarified it - so why not clarify it in the actual TOS? Here is my attempt, i will flag it so the mods can come check it out and please let me know if i should post this elsewhere, but i thought this was a good place to get feedback. Feel free to edit/add/remove/give your opinion.
Under the vendor participation section of the commenting policies, it currently states this (i am only posting the original of the parts I made a change to):
Vendors may:
i. Promote their websites or businesses on Classifieds only.
ii. Post to the Boards, DIY, Gallery, and Bios (but not promote their business in any way).
I THINK WE NEED TO ADD THIS POINT #3 TO WHAT VENDORS ARE ALLOWED:
iii. Offer technical and professional advice and opinions based on their area of expertise.
UNDER THE SECTION WHERE IT SAYS "Vendors may not", IT CURRENTLY STATES:
ii. Post to the boards to promote their website or businesses (including using signature lines, watermarked photos, or posting links to their business or blog, including in the monthly Share Your Blogs thread) or industry (e.g. a planner posting about how hiring a wedding planner essential to the success of a wedding, or a DJ trash talking iPod receptions).
I THINK THIS SHOULD BE BROKEN INTO TWO POINTS TO TO SAY THIS:
ii. Post to the boards to promote their website or businesses (including using signature lines, watermarked photos, or posting links to their business or blog, including in the monthly Share Your Blogs thread).
iii. Explicitly post on the boards that an investment in their industry is the only means by which an individual can have a successful wedding. (e.g. a planner posting about how hiring a wedding planner is essential to the success of a wedding, a DJ trash talking iPod receptions, or a photographer stating that hiring a non-professional will result in unusable/bad wedding pictures), and that any option other than a professional would guarantee failure.
AND I THINK THIS NEW POINT SHOULD BE ADDED IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN NO SELF-PROMOTION:
vi. Create a username that reveals their business name/website.
ETA: looks like i can't flag my own post (duh!), so can someone else please do so to bring it to the attention of the mods?