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I'm the MOH for a jewish bride and her jewish FI. I am not jewish. Eariler today, the bride told me that she is excited about me being her MOH, but she wants her aunt (who is also jewish of course) to sign their ketubah (a.k.a. a Jewish pre-nup type agreement considered an integral part of a traditional Jewish marriage, and outlines the rights and responsibilities of the groom, in relation to the bride...it's signed by 2 witnesses). The bride explained that, because I wasn't jewish, she was concerned that "it wouldn't count" if I signed the ketubah and therefore doesn't want me to sign it. She told me that she hopes I understand why she feels this way.
Now...initially I didn't think much of it. However, a few hours have passed since our phone conversation and I'm starting to feel a bit insulted. It's strange because...well, if I'm good enough to be her MOH to make it count, then why can't I be good enough to sign her ketubah?
Can any jewish brides (or brides in general) explain this to me? The more I think a about it, the more I think the bride played a b**** move on me.
Sorry, I am not Jewish, but I do understand where the bride is coming from and she did let you know about it in a nice way. If it bothers you that much; perhaps you should step down. Personally, I think you should be happy for her that she is able to also honor her aunt.
i think being a MOH for the ceremony and being a witness for the Ketubah are 2 different things/roles so if it was me i wouldnt be upset and i especially wouldnt be calling it a "b**** move"
i don't understand religion and its traditions in general. i think of course it should count if you sign it! but i wouldn't feel slighted by this either. simply because she is jewish and i would just chalk it up to something i can't relate to, therefore i won't be bothered or offended by it. and i certainly don't think she was a b**** for doing this. whatever her belief system and how strongly she feels about those beliefs is what led her to this decision. i am sure it has nothing to do with how important your friendship is to her.
I have a friend who was supposed to OFFICIATE my wedding. she said yes and the plans were set for months. then she backed out because my wedding falls on Passover and she can't miss such an important holiday. My opinion - this holiday comes around once a year, but your extremely good friend since high school asked you to officiate her once in a lifetime wedding. so do i understand, no? am i going to say something or be mad at her? no.
Also not jewish, but agree with the others. I don't see it as a big deal. Who cares who signs it? She chose you as her MOH, I would be happy and enjoy it!
@PurpleUnicorn: wow, you really are having some tough luck. Sorry about that as well, I am not sure I understand that excuse, I mean I would miss Christmas if thats when you were getting married....
Sorry, I'm not jewish either, but it may not count. I don't know. My children are baptized in the Catholic church, and they HAD to have Catholic godparents. Religion doctrines can be strange that way. It sounds like she cares enough for you to be her MOH regardless of her belief system. That's an honor in itself.
Thanks for the quick replies back! I appreciate it. Just checking to see if my feelings were justified in this situation. For me, if the shoe was on the other foot, I wouldn't mind her signing a religious document stating her witnessing my marriage especially since she would be my MOH. I would think "it counts" regardless of the fact that we practice 2 different religious, but I digress.
Hi. Jewish bride here. Sorry to say but she is right. Accordingly to Jewish law, the ketubah witnesses must be Jewish for the marriage to be recognized as valid. I wouldn't take it personally at all. You are obviously very important to her for her to have asked you to be her MOH. But you can't change religious doctrine. I'm sure if she had it her way, you would be the one signing it.
@BBee: ya some people like my FI and another friend think its just an excuse. i am having a DW, so if she just doesnt want to pay to come anymore, it is her right and i could not be upset with her for that either. i would appreciate honesty though, but i have no choice but to believe what she tells me.
I'm not Jewish, sorry, but I really wouldn't take it personally. Religion is so personal and I am sure she is not intentionally doing anything to you. She just wants someone who understands her religion to sign. Maybe someone else, her family if FI is pusher this decision too. I would look at the fact that she wants you up there with her more than anyone else. If she calls next week and says she wants someone else to be the MOH, then be pissed.
I'm with Phofe2774 on this - I think you should be honored to be her MOH. She obviously holds you in high regard to have asked you and quite actually if I were her I'd be really upset that my best friend would call something like this a "b**** move".
I don't think it's that big of a deal. The bride probably wanted someone to sign her document who was Jewish. It's just like the Catholic church when you have someone who is Catholic sponsor you during your confirmation. The bride probably just wants a Jewish person who has already been married to sign the religious document. I'm sure she still respects you and values you as a MOH. No need to drop out because of this. You should be proud of her for trying to involve so many people in her wedding.
I think the PPs have put it well, but yes, this is true. It also technically (according to my knowlege of the most traditional Jewish law) needs to be signed by men only. You shouldn't take offense, as this is your friend's religion and is obviously not a decision she is consciously making or a "b---- move," as you put it. If I was your friend, I might take offense that you don't have enough respect for my religion to go along with tradition without getting mad. Just my two cents.
The witnesses who sign the Ketubah have to be Jewish non-relatives. If you're not Jewish you can't sign. Don't be offended at all.
This has nothing to do with her feelings about you. The problem is that under Jewish law, a ketubah must be witnessed by two Jews. (Depending on how Orthodox the person is, only male Jews and/or only nonrelatives may count, but it sounds like she is not that Orthodox.)
It sounds like its actually religious doctrine so I wouldn't let it bother you too much! She thinks highly enough of you to as you to stand up with her and that says something!
Also a Jewish bride and have to second Meowkers. We're not super religious but our rabbi has also told us that our ketubah won't be valid in Israel unless two jewish non-family members sign it. We don't plan on ever living in Israel (or visiting for that matter) but he specifically asked that we have two Jewish witnesses.
Just chiming in to say that she is right and the document is a legal document under Jewish law, and the witnesses must be Jewish - we went through the same thing because my closest friends are not Jewish, but there is no way around that. I would just be honored to be her MOH.
Hhheeeeyyyy, this is good to know!!!! lol My best friend (basically sister) is Jewish and I'm familiar with the jew religion (even though I was raised Catholic). But, I'm not an expert and I didn't even know this!!! I know what the family informs me, ya know? lol
I've been to passover @purpleunicorn // it is a super big holiday in the Jewish Religion, and depending on how orthodox she is, does make sense as to why she can't. Though, you're right, i would break a holiday to do it for a close friend. But, its definitely different in the Jewish Religion - its not just breaking a holiday, its not following prayer, etc. Hard to explain - but I'm mixed on that one.
Anyhoo, my close friend is my MOH and signing the witness (we're having a civil ceremony) But I will be a MOH in hers (along with her sister) and now I know I won't be able to sign it!!! :) And ya know what, I would totally understand simply bc if any family in this world has accepted me as one of their own, its hers. And if I can't sign it, there has to be some legality/religion reason to it. And I would accept that. :) So, good to know!!!!!
@kirabee:it only needs to be signed by men if the couple is orthodox. conservative and reform jews give women equal status.
i would be offended as your friend that you don't accept my religion. a ketubah isn't valid if it's not signed by two jews who are unrelated to you and each other. without a ketubah, you don't have a jewish marriage.
interesting reading all these replies. the one thing i am wondering about the OPs friend is that her friend told her she wants her aunt to sign it. but everyone here is saying that a non-relative has to sign it? i wonder if the OP's friend even knows this?!
While I'm not Jewish (if you are please correct me!) I believe missing Passover isn't comparable to skipping a Christmas celebration or something. It is an important feast/sacrament, not sure the correct word. Celebrating the specific feast days, depending on how Orthodox one is, is a fairly basic tenant of the faith.
To the OP, I would agree with the PPs that it was an honor to be asked to be a MOH, and that wanting something of a religious value to be valid in that specific religion is very personal. Your friend loves you enough to ask you to be her MOH. You can not, by her beliefs sign and make her marriage valid. So it is definitely not a B**** move, but it is rather harsh of you as a friend to not be understanding of something that is apparently important to your friend.
also jew here- don't be offended by this AT ALL. it's one of those religious rules, which i myself will probably be ignoring since we are interfaith anyway, so i don't think it can technically be "legal" in jewish law. i still love the concept though.
I think it's so important to respect others religions, especially if you are their friend and particpating in their wedding. I hope you wouldn't assume your friend would pull a "b**** move" on you, since you're her MOH!
I have close friends that are Jewish. They were concerned about their one friend signing the ketubah as he is not a full-practicing Jew, and they weren't sure he would be able to sign (he was in the end). They are reform jews and still follow the rules that it needs to be someone Jewish. Your friend will likely ask the rabbi what rules she needs to follow. Be honoured that you will still be playing a big part in the ceremony and standing up next to your friend!
ETA: The provincial licence portion that needed to be signed was signed by other people, so likely you can still sign this part, and still be a witness!
I don't think she is being mean in anyway. I'm not Jewish nor do I claim to know anything about Judaism. However, I know that in different religions and cultures, there are certain rituals. My understanding is you pick a Maid of Honor based on friendship. This is the person you want standing with you as you get married. This is the one that you want to have fun times with as you plan your wedding. Signing a ketuba or whatever doesn't have too much to do with friendship but rather tradition. And if in Jewish tradition it must be a Jewish person to sign the thing... I wouldn't get offended. It's bigger than what she wants, it's her culture.
The people who sign as witnesses agree to help the couple and support them and provide counsel to them in every aspect of thier life-- religion included. A person of a different faith can't fill that role, unfortunately.
@PurpleUnicorn:i'm sorry your friend can't make it, but your wedding is on the first day of passover. the first days are arguably the most important and a very big deal. if your wedding just 2 or 3 days later, i'm sure she would have no problem going; likewise, if your wedding was over the end of passover she would probably attend. also, it's really difficult to pack all of the food you need for an entire week, especially when you're throwing money away on an all-inclusive you can't use.
Jewish Bride here!
@PurpleUnicorn: its not that easy on passover everything has to be KOSHER!! even if she brings her own food shell have to bring her own forks knives dishes as well. Dont take this the wrong way but I think your being pretty offensive to your friend by not understanding her religion. Maybe you should take some time to research or speak to your friend directly about your feelings.
This incident is a good example of why we shouldn't get indignant and have our feelings hurt over something we don't understand.
If something happens, or someone says something that you don't understand, ask questions.
I am sure the bride could have explained why she chose to have someone else witness the ketubah.
Jewish bride here with a suggestion for the OP. When my husband and I got married, we had our one Jewish groomsman and a very dear Jewish friend sign our ketubah. And then to balance the scales and show some respect to the ladies we had both my MOHs (non-Jews) sign our marriage certificate as witnessses. That way both sides (bride and groom) were represented in our important documents and our non-religious friends still had an important role in making our marriage legal. It worked really beautifully for us.
That said, please don't be offended. If she didn't love and value you and want you there to support her and be a part of her special day, she wouldn't have asked you to be in her wedding.
*and to the passover bride, the first two days of passover and important and if she follows all of the dietary restrictions of passover and observes the rituals of a seder, it would be incredibly difficult (near impossible really) for her to be in a wedding on one of those two days. please don't be offended.
another Jewish bride here confirming that for many strict interpretations of Jewish law and tradition, witnesses signing the Ketubah do have to be Jewish, male, and non-relative. in our case, our rabbi is reform and had a slightly looser interpretation; he said we could have more than 2 witnesses sign if we wanted to honor any non-Jews as well as the 2 required Jewish witnesses, and he didn't care about gender or relative status.
i'm sorry that you feel upset, but i don't think it takes anything away from the honor of having you as her moh for someone else to sign. we thought about having people completely not in the wedding party sign just so we could spread the honors around to more people, since it's an honor both to sign and to be in the wp. ultimately we ended up having 2 jewish wp members (including my brother, but not our moh or best man since they aren't Jewish so we didn't ask them) sign because it was easiest logistically since we signed it before the ceremony and before guests got there, but theoretically i like the idea of having more people involved.
@PurpleUnicorn: I thought that too, but assumed that it was an aunt by marriage, which would make her not a relative, and able to sign the ketubah legally.
Also, we had four people sign the Ketubah, but for them to sign the document, they all had to be Jewish.
@kitzy: I know, I was trying to simply the text of my response as much as possible since the OP seemed like she knew very little about the Jewish religion and traditions (as indicated when she called the Ketubah a Jewish pre-nup). I also agree completely with what you said.
Our rabbi also said they needed to be Jewish to sign. I had my sister (MOH) sign the ketubah and my non Jewish SIL (my only bridesmaid) sign the marriage certificate.
Marrying a jewish guy I have gotten a crash course in jewish wedding stuff and she isn't trying to pull one over on you or slight you in any way. That really is the custom and jewish law requires that every person that signs the ketubah be jewish for it to be legal. Also, its not a pre-nup. Its a marriage contract. pre-nups are for if you divorce. Ketubah lay out responsibilities within the marriage. We had a similar situation with my ketubah but decided that since it is an interfaith ketubah and not recognized under jewish law anyway, that my non Christian MOH could sign it. But if I were jewish, she wouldn't be allowed to in order for it to be a true binding ketubah. Sorry. But that is just the way it is.
@PurpleUnicorn: It depends on how orthodox they are. Some allow relatives to sign so long as they are immediate family (brother, sister, mother, father) and some don't allow relatives at all. My FMIL had her BIL witness for her since he wasn't her family and FFIL had her brother sign for him. It really depends.
Maybe she just needs to find a way to include her aunt? And this is her way of finding her something to do?
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