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hugs.... Im sorry girl! I wish I had advice. I really do think you should go to counseling and do everything you can to save this. You both, obviously, love eachother A LOT.... It actually takes a pretty strong man to admit his faults and I'm glad to see he wants to fix them. A guy would only try to fix this for the "right" girl. I think that you need to take each day one at a time. This is a real tough situation, I wish for you the best. Keep us updated!
He said he wants to go to couples counseling...maybe you should try that. I think it's great that he wants to work on this with you. *hugs*
@chittychittybanebnae - thank you so much. You know if helps just to hear this. I'm reluctant to really tell that many of my friends/family. I guess in some ways I'm embarrassed about it, and I'm so sad I don't want to tell the story over and over.
We do love each other a lot and I do think that him asking us to go to the counseling is the one positive to this. And, he's paying for it. Told me I could do my own individual sessions too and he'd pay for those as well.
and, we're supposedly, not booked yet, going to a couples workshop on communication.
I'm reluctant to throw 3 years in the trash without at least trying. Does that make sense to everyone?
I really think he wants to fix this. I'm just scared to death!!! I feel rejected.
@prshadow: He seems like a really amazing guy who is being honest with you about his fears. I think that he is suggesting counseling is a very good thing. He's recognizing that he might have some commitment issues and he needs help in getting through them.
I think the part where you mention that you are crying and freaking out, probably means that it would be good for you both to have a mediator. You crying probably stops him from really discussing everything completley where a counselor will be able to help you both clearly communicate and understand what the other persons concerns are in this relationship.
If you love him, agree to do this and that should allow you and him to figure out if he actually does want marriage. I will say though that the fact he is willing to work on this with you, does prove a very strong level of commitment. Deep breaths. Stop calling him crying and set up an appointment.
@prshadow: I think going to counseling is a great step. All relationships hit bumps, it's how you deal with those that can make or break a relationship. He sounds like he's really trying.
I haven't read your past posts, but I will admit that when reading this I noticed a prominent key word. You mentioned that you "freaked" at least 4 times. What do you mean when you say this?
It sounds like he is being very honest with you, and he is working on trying to be a more emotional being (he's in therapy, that's asking a lot of anyone). While you guys are taking steps to move towards your future, he's not lying to you and saying something that he doesn't 100% feel. Getting rid of his house and losing his free time are things that we all worry about and miss when we get serious about someone, and I think it's very commendable that he is verbalizing his fears to you. I think the best thing to do in this case is to be patient.
You said so yourself that he is a wonderful, supportive boyfriend, and the commitmentphobia is the only drawback. He's working on that, which is more than most can say. Be thankful that he is a strong enough person to admit and work on his drawbacks. :)
Wow - I've been so negative and depressed and angry. I'm so caught up in this I can't see the forest for the trees. He's always "avoided" this in the past in our relationship. He typically shuts down when the commitment subject comes up. I've always known he has this issue, but I guess I was just hopeful our love would overcome it and it felt as though he was. He's been seeing a therapist for a few years, maybe more....since his first marriage failed. She would only go to one session, and walked out. He liked the therapist so much he stuck with it but until now he hasn't been doing the work to get past his fears. He's told me all about the sessions where the therapist is mad at him for not trying.
So I saw her last week and he did as well, although separately. We are supposed to go to a workshop and then do couples counseling together.
he's said to me in the past 'I don't have any emotion' - which is obviously not true. He just doesn't show it as well as do I. :-) And I guess at times I show it too well.
This is so scary, I've been wanting to post about this but I was actually afraid to. I'm having a hard time talking to anyone about it.
I'm sorry you guys are going through this! It sounds like you two love each other and can definitely get through this, but it's going to take work from both of you!
I think that, because you're upset, these issues seem much worse to you than they actually are. Try to take a deep breath and relax. You're in a good relationship with a good man, and you've encountered some challenges that are difficult, yes, but no more difficult than what most couples have to face on their journeys to marriage.
To be honest, I don't think your SO is wrong in this situation. It sounds like, as you prepare to move in together, he expressed that he had discussed his fears about it with his therapist. So he was making an effort to open up and tell you about his feelings, which, by the way, are completely normal for any couple moving in together. It's a big change and most people are going to feel apprehensive about it. And then, in response to this, you start crying and freaking out for what seems like no reason.
His subsequent discomfort with committing to you seems to stem from the fact that you freaked out at him for no good reason. He obviously loves you and wants to work this out. But he probably won't want to marry you if you keep overreacting and being super-emotional. I understand that there's an underlying issue - you are ready for marriage before he is. However, as many waiting bees can probably tell you, this happens often, and freaking out is not the way to deal with it.
Everything I'm saying, btw, comes from personal experience. I went through a very similar issue with my DH. He would make a comment that I'd misinterpret as rejection (for instance, "I'm not sure I'm ready to move in together"). Then I'd freak out - crying and yelling at him. This would only exacerbate the problem, making him even less confident that he wanted to be with me. In order for our relationship to work and for us to get married, I had to stop with the crying and the freakouts and deal with issues like a mature, responsible adult. I had to understand that my SO would not always be ready for certain levels of commitment at the exact same moment that I was. I did make these changes and our relationship became much stronger, eventually leading to marriage.
I hope the counseling sessions help the two of you get past this. Good luck!
@prshadow: it can be extremely frustrating dealing with someone who doesn't show emotion, but he IS trying, he IS offering solutions, and has asked for your patience. his first wife was not willing to show him that patience and walked out. this probably didn't help his commitment phobia one bit, if anything, it may have set him back.
it sounds like you really love him and are in this for the long haul. he's been very supportive to you in the past and very patient with you as well, and now in his time of need it's your turn to return the favor.
Mwitter80 had a very good point - just as he has a problem showing his emotions, there is also a problem when too much emotion is shown. whenever you feel yourself getting emotional about the situation, stop, breathe, and then respond. it is very hard for a person to admit any faults or weaknesses, and it's even harder to admit something to another person who just "freaks out", as you call it. all that this behavior is doing is re-inforcing to him that putting himself out on an emotional limb is negative, and it's counterproductive to his healing.
best of luck to you both :)
You sound exactly like my best friend and her "permanent fiance"
After 9 years of promises and fears etc, she came to terms with not being married. She had the rings, the wills, the shared life, just not the marriage and she said that was OK.
I do think couples counseling is a good idea, but maybe take some time to decide for you. If everything else works for you, is not actually walking down the aisle a deal breaker for you? If it is, make sure he knows that as well as how much time you are willing to "give him" to work on it.
I would also try very hard to not scream, cry, pout etc over any discussions related to marriage because it will only make it harder for him. So will repeated ultimatums.
This is great feedback and I want to say thank you again. He knows that I will not, under any circumstances, settle for less than marriage. I've been clear. So, I suppose it's time for me to give him the space he needs, do the counseling and stop freaking, manipulating, pouting.
You guys are awesome.
Please keep it coming and I'll keep everyone updated on the situation.I wonder if it's possible for a man who says "I don't want to get married" will ever change his mind?
@prshadow: I'm so sorry you are dealing with so much pain right now and I really do wish you all the best. And, yes, it is possible for a man who says he doesn't want marriage to change his mind. But it depends on the type of man--if he's a George Clooney type then no he wont change his mind no matter the woman, but if he's a man who loves the woman he's with (which yours obviously does) and realizes that having her means working on that issue (which yours is willing to do)...then yes it is certainly possible and likely even that he will come around. A prime example is my brother. He was with his now fiance for nearly 5 years, all the while stating that he was unsure about marriage. It resulted in them breaking up a number of times. But in the end, he realized he wanted her and that his desire to be with her was greater than his doubts about getting married. Needless to say the whole family was shocked when he proposed to her--considering for years he's been set against marriage.
So have faith and trust that if you both are willing to work on your relationship, and you love each other, then it will all turn out well.
I wanted to let you know my FI had HUGE committment problems. He even said once, " I don't know who I will be in 20 years, so how am I suppose to know who I will want to be with then?" I let him know I had a time line. I would try to encourage him to talk about it even though it made me angry and yes rejected. But I STILL encouraged him to talk, to work through it, to THINK about it instead of ignoring it.
Its really hard when all his actions scream he wants forever and it makes you all dreamy and happy, then you have to face the reality of his head and his heart are not communicating well. Its really hard. Especially talking to people about it. Mostly because they will ask if you are going to get married and you are left there saying you want to and making up some poor excuse for why he isn't as committed. It sucks. It sucks big time <huggles>
However my FI got over it. He's more excited about the wedding than I am. I can't tell you what made his head finally click but it did. Listen to what he shows you... actions always speak louder than words, if his actions scream commitment that is what is honest. His head will catch up, its just being stupid right now. At least that's what my FI always says when I ask him to explain how he changed... haha. Anyway, don't freak out because he loves you, he does, but he would have this committment fear with any woman. Its not you, its him, and he's working on it and he's going to need your support.
<more huggles> It will get better!
Well by your former posts, you have to let him be ready for it. His ex-wife didn't, she did the same things you are doing now and they are divorced. You have a really good man there- he just isn't ready. You have the right to choose not to wait or whatever, but the simple fact that he is asking you to, as well as showing you (by suggesting counseling), he is MORE than worth waiting for. I normally stand by the waiting woman however in your case, I am on his side of things. Again, you do not have to wait for him however if you really evaluate your circumstances, I think you would see it would be more than reasonable to get married on his terms- especially since he already told you that the first itme he got married, he wasn't ready.
I really think he suggested a wedding date and started planning with you to make you happy. This is the SAME sort of deal with the ex-wife... please see the connection. I know you may feel ashamed or embarassed as you expected to have a ring on soon and have a wedding date set, but I wouldn't push for an engagement ring now- give him some time to sort everything out. He is really a keeper- don't let being impatient for a ring get the better of you. Trust me, you want to be engaged happily- not out of force or rush to keep that date you both already set.
@prshadow: ((BIG HUGS)) I am guilty of the freak-out as well. I feel emotions strongly and always thought that it was a good thing and never a short-coming until I saw that same thing in other people. Don't get me wrong, I'm still proud of how passionate I am about things. However, I'm trying how to express them in a more calm manner. I've found that when I've succeeded in that, the communication has been much more effective. Men are tricky. A conversation can become substantially more effective when you take time to think of WHERE, WHEN, and HOW you should have it.
Your SO sounds like a lot like where mine was in his life two years ago so I've been there. I have been put through the waiting ringer at every stage of our relationship, but it's been worth it, and I have the most amazing, devoted man. I am still waiting, but at this point it's only because of financials...he's expressed clearly to me that he would have proposed by now if he was in a better financial spot.
PM me if you want! We need our own "Bees who are in love with commitment phobes" support group.
UPDATE :
Together all weekend and tried to go through the motions. Had a good time for the most part, got a little hard for me on Sunday. We stayed busy with activities. Made a pact that I would not ask about his progress or bug him (all that happens is a fight if I do) except I would like to have a weekly check in where we can discuss for 30 minutes or less. I also suggested a vacation because we've had such special ones. We were not going this year due to the move in, which obviously is on hold. He liked both ideas.
I did fine until Sunday afternoon. We went for a ride on the blue Ridge parkway and towards the end I couldnt' stop the tears. I didn't cry a lot - but some. The good news is we had 0 fights. he is reading the book hs therapist told hm to read and we're supposed to go back to the counseling.
Still saying he needs to figure out why he has this emotional block. Keeps saying "we're going to be alright."
Me, I'm scared to death. Terrified, actually. And angry because he tooks things this far only to get spooked.
One nice thing he did. We were at my mom's cooking dinner for her birthday. he said "I'm sorry I made your daughter cry." Mom said, "thank you for saying that, I love her she's my everything." He said, "I love her too and she's my everything."
that was sweet.
I'm trying Bees, I'm trying but I'm scared to DEATH. I feel rejected. and like I'm not "good enough" and I know deep down it's his problem not mine but it's hard to not let this ruin your self esteem. And, I'm scared I'm going to lose the man I thought I was to spend the rest of my life with. That's what all his actions were saying.....
gonna' need hand holding. I appreciate the support I'm getting here more than you know.
Hi, I just wanted to say I'm on a similar "emotional" boat as you. I know what you mean by feeling rejected and all that stuff you mention. It seems like a lot of bees have been in a strange, freak-outs emotional stages in one way or another too. You are not alone. I'm not one to tell you to calm down because it's very hard for me to be patient and be calm and let the man do his thing. I'm also a little bit of a control freak...so, you get the picture. Good luck to us.
thanks gramgeek! It helps to know I'm not alone. I'm going through various stages which I'm sure is also normal.
This morning, I'M JUST ANGRY. Not calling him to telling him that or bugging him, I'm just venting it to you guys. I'M REALLY PISSED. What's scary and sad about this is I'm getting to the point sometimes where I don't care anymore. I think "why should I have to wait around for a man to decide if he wants to spend the rest of his life with me?" Especially a man who aksed ME if we could move in together, initiated it. A man who in all his actions acts as though this is permanent until the 11th hour.
I'm kinda' mad now. And depressed. Can barely function. But, I'll tell you, the madder I get the easier this gets. I don't even want to talk to him.
I have nothing to say.
@prshadow: I'm sorry. I hope you have a good day (or as good as it can be) If you are this mad, don't talk to him. It really will make it all worse if you let him know how mad you are. Just keep your distance for a while, but in a kind way (if that makes any sense at all).
Um, I think everything you need to know can be summed up in this sentence:
"We have a wonderful relationship, sans his lack of showing emotions and commitment phobia."
How is a relationship actually a relationship without emotions or real committment? You already know what needs to happen, you just haven't accepted it yet.
I don't mean he NEVER shows emotions. I mean he has a "hard time showing his emotions" but he certainly shows them. If he never showed an emotion, I wouldn't be having this conversation.
We have a commitment, just not a marriage commitment.
Yes, I know what needs to happen. I know that I'm grasping at straws. I'm trying to decide whether or not to allow him the time he has asked for to go through the counseling together.
Believe me - the last 3 years of this relationship have been beautiful. Sharing, caring, taking care of each other, having fun, it's not like he has no emotions. He just doesn't show them as much as I do.
nonetheless, yes, I know what I have to do. I have totally accepted it. I have to decide how long I'm giving him and the counseling he has suggested either works or I leave the rleationship.
I think if he wanted to give up NOW he'd certainly tell me and believe me, I'd give up.
UPDATE
We were together all last weekend - kept busy and had fun but there is definitely a wall between us. We talked a little but nothing different came out of his mouth. Of course, it's too soon so I didn't expect an epiphany. From him anyway. I had one on Tuesday this week. After crying Sun night and Mon night I woke up kind of "numb" and I'm trying to concentrate on me, and on healing from all this hurt. I'm resting a lot (after work of course...I have to go to work) and trying to recharge. I didn't return his calls tues or wednesday and not even thursday until 3 attemps to get in touch with me. I'm doing the work of 2 people right now because someone left my department and Im doing my job AND hers. (hoping for a new job so I'm trying to impress!!!!). So, I told him I was totally exhasted and just needed to rest my mind.
He said he missed me. okay. That's very sweet. We typically get together Fridays and depart on Sundays because we live 1 hour apart. It was my turn to go to his place this weekend. I told him I was just too tired to come over Fri (last night). He said "do you want me to come up there?" So, I agreed. He had an appointment for his dog to go to the groomer this morning so I told to just come afterwards.
I cried last night, but not because i didn't see him. Just more about all the memories, and I know what I will have to do eventually if things don't change. As you can tell, I don't have a lot of "hope" that things will change. I know that sounds negative but I'm trying to be realistic here. Thinking back on our relationship, he's always held back emotionally. Not all the time, but there's always been a wall. And I've always known he has a commitment issue. Please know tht when I say this, I don't mean he cheats...I trust him 100%. He's like Mr. Big on Sex in the City....sans the millions of dollars (although he makes good money).
Just looking for more support. I'm trying to hang in there. I've set an internal timeline (unspoken) of October 1. I feel 3 months is sufficient to see changes. What do you guys think?
The problem is in the meantime, can I enjoy being with him???????? THIS IS SO HARD.
But, the good news is I'm excited about taking care of ME. Although I'm sad, there's a bit of excitement about growing and learning that I have to do what's right for ME. Although, it's very very hard. I can do this!!!! my friends are encouraging me and being wonderful.
thanks for listening to me go on and on and on.
Did you see the movie 'He's Just Not That Into You?" This reminds me of the Jennifer Aniston character. You guys are in love and happy (minus the marriage thing) but you're pushing for something he's not ready for. The happy thing is that they got together in the end, but they took a long time apart and in that time she realized that being married doesn't equal happily ever after and that she loved him and wanted to be with him no matter what.
Maybe you need some time apart to figure out what is really most important to you. Give him space to miss you and realize the hole in his life that is left without you there.
He didn't say it's off the table, just that he needs some time. If he's your person, you can give him this time and stop crying about it when you see him and making your unhappiness so obvious. No one wants to feel responsible for making someone so unhappy. Especially since he really did not do anything wrong- he is just being honest. I'm not saying pretend you're not upset, but try not to do the passive aggressive crying so he'll comfort you thing. It doesn't work.
I'm not sure how old you are, but life isn't some sort of race. There are no deadlines. I'm in my early 30s and madly in love with my bf, but feel no pressure or urgency to marry until we're both 100%.
Try to relax.
I think you should continue the counseling with him and try to give him time. You said he was married before and it ended badly? Just from what you've described, it doesn't sound like the typical "guy doesn't want to commit" scenerio. He really seems to have left over issues from his divorce that might have even developed into a fear or maybe even a true phobia of taking that last step in the relationship. The fact that he wants to not only go to counseling with you, but also workshops makes me think that he absolutely does want to spend the rest of his life with you. He just needs a chance to get through this and it's not going to happen over night. If you love him and want to be with him, then you need to be patient (yes, I know this is easier said than done). In the mean time, while going to counseling, maybe the two of you can ease into living together very slowly. I know you said you live an hour apart, so the driving to work wouldn't be fun, but you could talk to him about adding one day at a time to your weekends. You're together Friday-Sunday now, maybe make it Friday-Monday for a month and add a midweek dinner together. If that goes well, then make it Friday-Tuesday, etc. Give him a chance to adjust.
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To my Bee Friends,
I am in the crisis mode with my relationship and would like to ask for encouragement, positive thoughts, and suggestions (please be gentle as I'm a bit broken right now). Although I do appreciate honesty.
I guess the best recap would be to go back and read my story - I don't have that many posts really. SO and I have been together 2 years and 8 months. Planned on moving in together within the next couple of months (as soon as his house rents). We have a wonderful relationship, sans his lack of showing emotions and commitment phobia. He's totally committed to the relationship and we're together every weekend. WE live one hour apart. We take vacations together, have met families, and we love each other. He has spent tons of money on my home getting it ready for a move in, well - not tons, just a few thousand. And he is a great, supportive boyfriend in so many ways like helping me financially, taking me to fun places, taking care of my yard, helping me and supporting me if I'm stressed. Just no complaints on anything else. NONE.
2 weekends ago he had a yard sale to start getting rid of some stuff. He's been gathering moving boxes. Has been painting his house - getting it ready to rent. Has talked to a realtor but not made any huge steps in getting it on the market he says becuase it needs so much work. Which it does. and he's been doing it slowly but surely. Well, the night of the yard sale he tells me that he had a talk with his therapist and that they talked about his "fear of connecting because he's afraid to lose his independence." I freaked. I took it as a total rejection and fighting ensued. Or rather, me crying. He shuts down if I get real upset. He went on to say a few other not so nice to hear things, like "I like my house and having my week nights" - which I understand this is a transition. To make a long story short, I freaked and we've been in crisis ever since. Last weekend we did good Friday night, because I didn't bring it up. Then on Saturday I calmly said "let's talk about the conversation from last weekend." I asked him if I was the one he wanted to spend the rest of his life with and he said "I don't know, I haven't ever wanted that before." I freaked again and we were up all night fighting.
He is claiming that it got close and he got scared and tried to talk to me about it and I freaked, so he got even more scared. He doesn't feel comfortable with Marriage even though a while ago we talked about a date/timeframe of 2012. I asked him why he agreed to that and he said "well, I wasn't really ever comfortable with it."
Right now he says he doesn't want to give up. He wants to get past his fears of marriage. He wants us to go to couples counseling. He tells me "don't give up, have some patience with me," He says he wants to "get past his fears" so we can move forward.
I've always known he was commitment shy, but all his actions and words have pointed to us being together forever. And, now - this at the 11th hour. I'm heartbroken to say the least. I don't know what to do, where to turn and I'm so depressed I can't function. I've told him that I'll try to be patient as long as I can but that I have to put an end to this soon.
I don't know if he'll ever want marriage. I've been basically freaking out, calling him a lot and crying. I'm becoming numb.
He keeps saying "we're going to be alright, we'll work it out."
Please help !!!!!!!