How a piece of paper is more important then the actuall relationship with the person.
I get that marriage is 'super' important to some people, but what I don't get is, if he doesn't want to get married now and wants to wait, or doesn't want to get married at all. Is it worth all the 'love' you have for him and all your dreams together? A future can still have a ton of happiness without getting married.
And marriage isn't even cement, people get divorced, and want to know something - chances are, you will too.
I'm not saying I'm against marriage, hell, I'm married.
It just upsets me when I see people through away 'loving' relationships (they always talk about how perfect they are together, how much they love them, blah blah blah) because he wants to wait or doesn't want to get married at all.
here comes the hate.
but I had to get it off my chest
@nikix: +1, lol maybe the only one you get, but I'll get yelled at with ya ;)
@nikix: meh, i see your point but I told my SO that there are certain things I wont do unless were married. Also, I didn't date guys who weren't open to marriage as a possibility.
@nikix: I absolutely agree. I don't understand how so many women are so focused on getting engaged and married at a specific time, that if they don't receive a proposal by a certain date, they are willing to end the relationship.
A relationship is about give and take, just because you have a set timeline in your mind, doesn't mean the other person is going to feel the exact same way. I don't understand that if this person means so much that you want to spend your life together, but don't have a ring on your finger, you are willing to give it all up.
@subtlebee: I get that
but im talking about the ones who date for a while then decide it's a deal breaker
To me it's not the piece of paper that is 'important'. I agree being husband and wife will not change our relationship - we will still live together, share finances, go about our daily routines as per normal - but being married, is a commitment that we give each other.
For some people it will change their relationship - especially if they didn't live together before getting married, or didn't have sex before marriage.
Being married is more then being 'girlfriend and boyfriend', it's commiting to being together forever legally - we're recognised as one and not seperate.
You don't have to get married, but if you want to, I don't see why you should have to give it up.
@subtlebee: +1
The big thing for me was that I want to have kids, and I'm not willing to have kids before I'm married. Maybe that's dumb, maybe that's old-fashioned, and I completely understand that being married before having kids will not make things any easier or more concrete. I personally just felt like marriage was the step to take before kids were even an option.
I think that's why some people get too antsy and bail. It is unfortunate, but it happens.
@nikix: If its hopeless and marriage is a dealbreaker I see nothing wrong ith it. Love isn't enough to make a lifelong relationship work. You have to care enough about the other to compromise.
For me, there being no possibility of marriage is a deal breaker. Why would I sacrifice something that is important to me for my partner if my partner is unwilling to do the same for me? However, "it needs to be now or I'm walking" is a different story.
@nikix: +1.
When I entered into a relationship with my husband, it was for forever. I wanted to get married, and it was something I have always wanted, but it was not a dealbreaker. I was going to be with my husband, whom I love more than the blood in my veins or the breath in my lungs. I cannot be without him, and whether or not he wanted to marry me was not a good enough reason to leave him.
I understand what you are saying, but not all marriages end in divorce
In America, the divorce rate for a first marriage is around 41%. The divorce rate for a second marriage is 60%. The divorce rate for a third marriage is 73%
But if the couple doesn't have premarital sex, they are 60% less likely to get divorced.
@nikix: "Yeah, but marriage is no longer forever.
Most of the time anyways"
Perhaps in your eyes, but in mine and many others who get married, marriage is forever.
@subtlebee: Married here.
This discussion was had before we were even dating. He and I were in this forever. Marriage was never important to me. But it was something that I wanted. I would've stayed with him even if he had never proposed.
@Hyperventilate: well we'll never know will we? My point is that some women will give up whats important for love and some men will too. But for married/engaged girls to say they'd stick around regardless is sort of a fruitless effort because you didnt have to make that decision.
@subtlebee: Never was waiting and never really planned to get married. I also don't want children. For me, I never really loved anyone until I met my FI, so not getting proposed to was actually a relief. In fact, while I was dating one of my ex's, his family asked if we were planning on getting married and I felt like a deer in headlights. I'm not saying that people shouldn't want to be married, but to deliberately sabotage a near perfect relationship because you're not getting your way is incomprehensible to me. Why are one person's reasons for not wanting to get married less valid than a another person's reason to get married?
@subtlebee: I'm engaged. I definitely waited a long time, I somewhat understand how some women feel. He proposed on our 7th anniversary, but I never once considered leaving because he hadn't yet proposed.
I agree with what your getting at. I am a total plus on this. I got a lot of flack from my fiance's family for living with him before marriage. And I simply had the talk with him saying that in my mind we have been married for years. I knew early in our relationship that he was the one I wanted to be with for as long as I could.
You're right, people do get divorced, but nobody gets married thinking :meh, if it doesn't work out, we can just divorce". I hope not anyways. Regardless of the certificate, exiting a long term commited relationship is difficult.
These days people put too much emphasis on the "engagement ring", the "wedding", the "honeymoon" etc. What it all boils down to is when those things are not so shiny and new, you have to work reallyhard at your relationship......"married" or not officially amrried.
If someone doesnt want to get married for true reasons, then I don't think compramising your views is always the right action. You may resent them for it. Also its a two=sided story, if they were upfront about never wanting to marry and you still invest, hoping they will change, then maybe we are fooling ourselves!
end rant!
I was a waitingbee-so this is a rough subject for me.
If you never had to "wait" for a proposal, you really have no idea what it feels like for the one person you want to spend the rest of your life with tell you that they're not sure.
Even when you hear things like "what's the difference" and "I want to spend the rest of my life with you" you still wonder what on earth is wrong with you. Why are you not good enough and why is it that YOUR man doesn't have that same passion as other guys seem to have about their ladies.
If he never was going to be ready, I deserve to have someone who wanted the same things I did. That meant I would leave.
Yes we have an amazing relationship. But I would have walked away if he was stringing me along. And it's painful. And you really can't understand why unless it happens to you.
the question is would either of you have reached a point where you wanted the marriage? Happily we'll never know! I am glad your SO's loved yall enough to make it official but it is strange when girls who are engaged/married judge women who just want what you have with their own version of your SO.
So while I see your points, I think it might be the wrong messengers.
I think especially after a certain age, or if a woman wants children, being the "girlfriend" can get old.
OP, aren't you 20 years old?
@nikix: I can understand where you are coming from. It took me 8 years to agree to marry my husband because of a treadful previous marriage. I absolutely adored him and him me and we have an amazing marriage.
The thought of kids didn't even come into my decision because I didn't want to have any more, I had 1 and he had 2. He also didn't want any more, so we didn't marry because of potential children.
But he wanted to get married because he said that it demonstrated our love and commitment to our family and friends. In the end I came to understand his need and wanted to get married also. It made our parents very happy, it made other people realise that we were committed and it help solidify our children together.
Then it took me a further 4 years to actually change my name.
It is a personal thing, deciding to get married or not and whether getting married is a deal breaker or not.
I think of marriage as like wanting kids or not wanting kids. It's not the kind of thing you can compromise on. And just like sometimes people leave otherwise happy relationships because their partner has different desires regarding kids, so it goes with marriage. It might just be a piece of paper to you, but plenty of people place a high value on it. I mean, if marriage is so unimportant, what's the point of fighting for gay marriage, right? I don't know... I guess I just feel like its one of those things where you won't really understand it unless its important to you. If you're ambivalent about marriage (or kids) you won't really understand why people would leave a relationship with someone who has different goals or plans for the future. I guess you could just ask yourself whether you have anything you value that might be a deal breaker in a relationship for you. Like, would you leave your partner if they were totally amazing in every way but they were a racist? Or he was the best boyfriend ever but he had no work ethic? We all have different values, and I don't think valuing marriage is really all that wacky or bizarre.
@subtlebee: We will know. Because I was going to stay with my husband regardless of the proposal or non-proposal. I cannot speak for everyone else, and I know not everyone shares my ideals, but when I enter into a serious relationship, it's forever. Now, I would not stay with someone who was physically abusive or emotionally a dickweed or what have you, but in a stable, serious, loving relationship: It is forever.
I didn't need to get married. My husband and I got married because it was benefital. The military pays us to get married, live off base, and we have pretty good health insurance.
Marriage doesn't solve or fix anything. Truthfully, how different is it from dating? You get to say "Mrs
If you genuinely want to understand, it has to do with different views of marriage. I definitely don't see marriage as just a piece of paper or a change in legal status, but as a sacred commitment that changes almost everything between a couple. Also because of my views of dating and marriage, I don't believe in dating longer than a year or two before planning to marry or separate. If a boyfriend felt that he was not ready or that he needed to continue to date me for years to see if I was the "right one," this would show me that his view of relationships doesn't match mine. It has nothing to do with validity, it has to do with compatibility.
But even for women who don't hold my views, most people want to be with partners who feel the same way about them that they do about their partners. If a woman knows she wants to marry a man, and three years later he still doesn't know if he wants to marry her, that can be a crappy feeling. For some its an acceptable kind of crappy feeling and for some it's not. Love and affection aren't the only things that make a relationship satisfying.
@subtlebee: Well I wasn't engaged until I was in my 30's and we'll have been together for 5 years when we get married. If you asked me before we got engaged I would've said the same thing, however, I think that wanting to commit to someone for life isn't always in direct correlation to how much you love them. My FI asked me to marry him because he loves me and wants to be married. Someone can love you deeply, but still not want to be married.
I don't believe in fate, destiny, or "the one". I think there are dozens of people that each of us COULD be happily married to if we happen to meet them and put in a reasonable amount of effort. So I see no reason why anyone, male or female, should sacrifice something that is truly important to them. If one party wants marriage and the other doesn't, then it's not a perfect (or even near-perfect) relationship. If someone decides to break up because their partner doesn't want to get married ... so what? Why should one partner's desire to NOT get married trump the other partner's desire TO get married? I don't see either one as better or more legitimate than the other, but they ARE incompatible. So why in the world should someone stay with a partner and be miserable because they are missing out on something important to them? Break up so you can both find someone with the same goals and values.
(Happily married 16 years here, btw)
@nikix: I agree with you.
I can't understand the posts I see about giving ultimatums, or walk dates, or whatever. I think that if you love someone, you stay with them no matter what. I don't understand people claiming to love someone so much, yet give up so easily just because the other person is not ready to get married.
I'm engaged, and I definitely knew I wanted to marry my FI. But if he had sat me down and had a discussion with me about not wanting to get married, would I have left him? Absolutely not. To me, just being together is enough.
For people for whom marriage means more than a piece of paper, it is important to have a partner who wants to get married.
HOWEVER, I tend to think walk dates are a little crazy, myself, mostly. Especially when it's like, "I've been waiting too long, and I know you eventually want to get married, but I want to get married NOW."
BUT:
Example where a walk date seems much less crazy: I have a friend of the same faith as me, and to her getting married is one of the things she needs out of a relationship. I totally feel the same way. Problem: her boyfriend, of the same faith, doesn't know whether he'll ever want to get married to anyone, and is working on figuring this out. This has been going on for years, and he will eventually want to go away for more schooling (probably very far away). She doesn't want to tie herself into waiting for this guy forever, throughout his schooling, if they won't get married. She doesn't believe in sex outside of marriage, and thus by being his girlfriend forever she could never have the family she's always wanted.
Personally, I would employ a walk date there. Because you don't want to waste all your time with someone whose values/life plan does not match with yours.
Everyone has different wants and vision for their relationship/future. The tipping point is realising this and realising that you and your partner have differing views. If you have polar opposite views and you cant live with that without issuing demands and ultimatiums then you need to leave the relationship. Just because you love someone doesnt mean they are the person you should spend the rest of your life with.
What does get my goat about waiting posts is the hate and disrespect towards the men in the situation. It does not make a person bad or evil or an arsehole just because they want to wait or not get married at all what it makes them is the wrong person for you.
if it's just a piece of paper then why can't he get married if thats what she wants. why is it always the woman who should give up her wants/needs/dreams for marriage for her love for him?
Well unless you're married you're not legally family, which can cause all kinds of problems. But anyhow, why would you come on a wedding website and try to shame women for wanting to get married? Oh, is it because you're only 20 and you've already got what you want? Awesome for you. Now stop shitting on other people's dreams.
As a PP mentioned, this debate really boils down to one's personal view of marriage. I've posted this before: I view marriage as a public symbol of a pre-existing commitment, not commitment itself. I do not require it as proof of my partner's dedication. Though marriage is something I want, it has never been and will never be necessary to continue my relationship.
However, many women view marriage as THE commitment, and without it they will never feel their partner is truly devoted to them. If a woman has this view of marriage (and she has made this definition clear to her partner), yet he continuously claims to be unready, or is all talk and no action...she will likely come to the conclusion that he is not truly committed. Could she be wrong? Perhaps. Still, that is how it will seem to her. I imagine it's incredibly painful to keep loving someone wholeheartedly with the nagging suspicion that you are loved less.
---------------
This is a bit of an aside, but for those who want children, the desire to be married first makes sense. At least where I live, the father of a child born out of wedlock has no legal rights to that child, regardless of whether he is named on the birth certificate. He must go through a legitimation process in order to obtain full legal rights.
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