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i thought people still used the "Mrs." title if they kept their maiden name, too, actually...
he may just be really proud of having you as his wife and feel like maybe you aren't as proud of that fact by not using the title. maybe give him the benefit of the doubt with this one?
You are right on this one. If you're keeping your maiden name, you will be a Ms. I am keeping my maiden name in the workplace and hyphenating legally in my personal life; at work, everyone addresses me as a Ms.
He needs to start respecting your views more. If things don't get better, I suggest some couples counseling. Just because you want your individuality and feel certain ways about things doesn't mean you're trying to assert yourself politically.
I thought Ms. could be used if you were a miss or a mrs? I think you should be able to be a ms and he should support your decision. I dont really understand how it would help you out politically but I still just think he needs to be more understanding of your decisions.
I actually posted about this a while ago on here, and the general concensus was that Ms. should be used with your maiden name. Not saying that's the end-all rule, that's just what most Bees shared.
Regardless of whether you decide to be a Mrs. or Ms., he still needs to respect your decisions and not become angry when you differ on ideas.
i think most people who know me at all would know that I will always be a Ms because I personally feel that women shouldn't need to be defined by their marital status. So it shocks me that he even made that assumption, because that is so NOT the kind of person I am. He just uses the term 'political' when he means I'm doing something for the sake of it (not because either of us are actually political in any way!). But it truly astounds me that he thinks I would change my title when I bang on and on all the time about equality for women.... sigh!!!
I'm sorry this is so stressful to you and your FI. I see what you mean about it sounding as though you were having an affair, what with two different last names and the Mrs. part! That was a humorous way to put it.
So is there some way that you can ask him the reason behind his request to narrow down his true need here? That's a shame that he is ruffling at the remotely feminist stuff, but I think the underlining thing he needs from you is: a) to be connected to you, of course, and b) to have that connection represented clearly to the world, if not via a same last name, then via "Mrs." so that he can say, "She's with me." Not saying this is all there is to it, but seems as though it is part of his reason.
Once you establish his exact reason and also state yours to him, you either find a way to show this representation somehow, you both remain at a standstill upset at each other, or he accepts your decision peacefully. Good luck!
@londongal: Totally feel your pain. I think all your thoughts make a lot of sense. Hang in there, girlfriend!
How aggravating!
The next time he makes a comment about a decision of yours being "political," ask him, in all seriousness, what he means by "political." Maybe that could draw out a conversation about his knee-jerk reactions. And maybe it would be useful to have several conversations with him about gender/feminism - so that he understands why you hold the positions you do, and so that you can understand where he stands on those issues.
Why is he so offended at the very possibility that you would make a decision for feminist reasons? I know you have personal reasons for this, but it seems as if he's delineated what he finds an OK reason to do something and what he finds offensive. People's personal choices and decisions are often affected by higher-level beliefs and while I understand his being paranoid about a personal relationship being shaped by political acts, the fact is this happens all the time. His wanting you to go by Mrs. or to ask your dad for permission is based on gender roles and societal structures... he didn't come up with the ideas to do this on his own and they're just as "political" as your decisions.
Having different opinions about traditions and what they mean doesn't mean that one person or couple varies his/her/their marriage any more or less. I think you need to find a way to make this clear to him both in that your marriage means no more or less because of little decisions about these traditions and also that he needs to respect your decisions regardless of why you are making them.
ETA: and I should add that keeping my name was the easiest decision in the world for me for both personal and political/ideological/feminist reasons. I knew 110% long before we got engaged that I would make that choice. And STILL knowing how strongly I felt, it was a little bit of a shock to my fiance and he was kind of upset about it for awhile. And I was upset that he was upset. But that's all it was - a little shock and we've moved past it. I think with a lot of guys it can be a surprise and a disappointment if they did grow up expecting that their future wife might take their name. So this could be the manifestation of that shock, maybe.
Since you are getting married or you are married. All of these decisions are now not just yours. I think the decisions should be mutual. You are in this together, so maybe try including him in your decision making.
Hahah. If he were a woman, he'd be a feminist too.
I think maybe you should explain to him that feminism, equality, and your right to self-determination are things that you care deeply about, and him trivializing and dismissing them because he doesn't understand shows a deep lack of respect and regard for who you are and what you believe.
I think that just because she's marrying him it does not make her name in any way his decision. He can express a preference, but whatever she wants to do, it's her choice and he should be fine with it. (Just imagine what would be said about a woman that pitched a fit and tried to dictate how her husband would change his name after getting married. What's good for the goose...)
I think he may not know.. I kept my last name and people frequently call me Mrs. [my last name here] it sounds like I'm married to my dad. Creeptastic.
@londongal: Sorry to say but it sounds like you both need to work on your communication skills! This will just be the first of many disagreements you'll have if you plan to spend your lives together. Make the most of it and learn how to "discuss" things without keeping score. You'll have a better marriage.
@Elvis: you are right, oh so right. But it's so frustrating because I have explained to him exactly what you've said several times and he still gets annoyed about things! it's like every time a new 'thing' comes up I have to re-explain myself and my beliefs all over again. Then he'll say it's not the beliefs he has a problem with, it's my delivery. So he doesn't like the way I say things which I think is a little unfair, although usually when I have to explain something which I think is really obvious then yes, I am annoyed so it probably comes out badly.
Also when i say for instance, I don't want to change my title from Ms, and i'll explain why and then ask him to explain his reasons for why he doesn't like it, he can't actually come up with anything except for 'this is just the way things are done'. So then when I point out that if people didn't take little steps to change things (like Rosa Parks sitting at the front of the bus - not that I'm comparing myself to her, an amazing woman!, but the point is she did something some people would think, 'why bother, it's just the way things are' but she really changed things). It's like he thinks that is all a load of crap. It's so depressing. I can understand him being surprised at something new that he hasn't thought about before, but not him being SO annoyed for hours and hours at something which totally falls in line with my beliefs which he knows perfectly well anyway.
i have suggested counselling and he hates that idea. wow, i'm realising writing this that he doesn't sound very good from what I've said here but he is actually a very good person! that's why i get so frustrated - I just expect more from him.
Well said.
@tracieszcz: All of these decisions are now not just yours. I think the decisions should be mutual.
That would be true if it were about something that pertained to both of them - managing finances, having children, relocating, splitting time with families, etc. But this isn't a decision that affects him one way or the other, so I don't really see why it should be mutual.
@londongal: It can be really hard!! There are a lot of wonderful men (and women too, for that matter) out there who have really unfortunate, un-thought-out reactions to feminism. It gets really old always being patient and explaining the basics that are so obvious to us, but seem so threatening to them.
In my experience, the key to effectively communicating my positions and the reasoning behind them is to stay completely calm. That is not always easy (or even possible - my dad just makes me want to scream sometimes!) but it usually helps keep the conversation constructive. So when he says during a discussion of some gender issue "But that's just how it's done," stay calm and ask "well, do you think that's a good enough reason to outweigh the fact that it discriminates/puts an unequal burden on the wife/keeps women at an economic disadvantage/etc?" Then follow up with, "I just want to understand why it upsets you that I'm taking this position."
You've probably already done this, but I would also have some frank talks now about how you plan to manage work/caregiving if/when you have children, and whether/how you'll combine your finances upon marriage. ETA: I say that because my dad's attitudes toward feminism/gender were one of the underlying causes of my parents' divorce. He just could not deal with the fact that my mom was (and had always been!) committed to her professional calling, expected to be an equal partner in the marriage, etc. But I think a lot of that could have been avoided if they'd had those kinds of talks earlier on.
@mightywombat: yes, it's the staying calm part that i REALLY struggle with!!! I really need to work on that! and it's really bizarre because we have talked about finances and childcare and he was really forward-thinking in those areas, so I guess it totally surprises me when he comes out with old-fashioned thinking (in my opinion) when he is SO modern in other areas and totally willing and happy to work part-time and look after children equally in the future. That wasn't even something that we had to discuss, he was always willing and fine with that idea.
And it's interesting because I agree with you that my title isn't something that pertains to him, and have asked him how it affects, him and he hasn't been able to say how and just says 'it just does'. So to me, it's nothing to do with him but he doesn't see it that way, similar to @tracieszcz:
You're totally right, it is an unthought-out reaction, and then it makes my reaction bad, which just escalates into an argument. I need to just accept the fact that I will spend the rest of my life having to explain things even though to me it seems obvious, to other people it isn't! and I have to do it calmly. Hmm. I'm not sure I'm a good enough person for this!!
@Entangled: yes, upon reflection I think it was just the surprise for him and he keeps saying 'this came out of nowhere' and I just kept thinking, 'no it didn't!' I'm sure he'll get over it, and even though he'll understand it, (I think) i guess it's normal for it to be upsetting at first.
I could be wrong, but I always thought that Mrs meant "wife of". so if you were Mrs. MaidenName, then you would be "wife of ?" your dad? lol i dunno how that would work logistically
I have a similar traditional guy, and I truly believe he has the best of intentions with wanting you to share his name. I'm still debating whether I'm going to change my name when the time comes, but we'll see! My mom didn't change her name, and it has been more complicated than she expected (people not believing I'm her daughter, legal papers, access to family information)..so this may sway my decision a bit. I think calmly talking about your values and why you both feel the way you do would solve this issue! :)
@Elvis: You don't have to be female to be a feminist!!!!!!!!!!! You just have to believe that men and women should be treated equally.
@Elvis: You don't have to be female to be a feminist!!!!!!!!!!! You just have to believe that men and women should be treated equally.
@Elvis: You don't have to be female to be a feminist!!!!!!!!!!! You just have to believe that men and women should be treated equally.
@Elvis: You don't have to be female to be a feminist!!!!!!!!!!! You just have to believe that men and women should be treated equally.
@Elvis: You don't have to be female to be a feminist!!!!!!!!!!! You just have to believe that men and women should be treated equally.
oooh i want to be a Ms!!!!
seriously though - i always assumed all married peopel were Mrs and all unmarried older women were Ms. i agree with the feminists, its not fair men get to be Mr regardless of their status, but thats how life is.
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so FI and I had an argument where he accused me of using our marriage as a 'political platform' because I am not going to use the title 'Mrs'. I am a Ms and I will always be a Ms (I decided this way before I met him). And he was fine with me keeping my own name (and we have also discussed both changing our names to a double name option).
But he was really pissed off when he found out that I will not become a Mrs. What the hell!? it doesn't even make any sense - it would sound like we were having an affair if I was 'Mrs X' and he was 'Mr Y' anyway! argh! I just don't get it. Any time I tell him about a decision that I've made for personal reasons that is remotely related to feminism, he gets all shitty with me. Like for instance, I didn't want him to 'ask my father's permission' before he proposed to me. and that pissed him off. What he saw as traditional, I see as antiquated and taking away respect for me to make my own decisions (just for me personally, not because I think that it isn't right for other people, but me and my dad are NOT close and i really don't care what my dad thinks of my life choices. I have no idea why on earth FI would think it's appropriate to ask for my dad's permission given my personal circumstances). So a lot of our disagreements he thinks are about 'feminism' when actually it's just about what is right for me as a person and what I feel comfortable with but he accuses me of it being 'political'. I am SO TIRED of this! Any help?