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I LOVE to read Miss Manners every Monday and LOVE it when she talks about weddings. This week, both questions were about weddings and she kind of bashes the concept of a DW (of course, only in regards to brides who get selfish or greedy).
Interesting read! Personally, I wish I had a friend having a DW, I need a vacation! :)
http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationships/article.aspx?cp-documentid=23998137
Well, maybe it's true that the location is more important than the invite list, but how would that be wrong. It's just a different choice.
Getting married is about celebrating your love and making a commitment to each other.
One could argue that having a local wedding with many invitees is "just to put on a show" and make it clear that you have the budget for all kinds of luxuries (I am exagerating here, no offence!)
Miss Manners should maybe learn that passing judgement on people's very personal choices on how they want to commit to each other is a lack of manners.
Yes, I agree that the comment about how brides who have themes aren't mature enough to get married is a little harsh to say the least. And I think she's wrong about DW's, I think people who have them WANT a smaller wedding and if they are paying for it, they can get married anywhere the heck they want!
I'm having a DW. I only sent out 35 invites, only two declined. The DW madae it a hundred times easier not to invite those relatives that we only see at say weddings or funerals and include those friends of our that would make it to the wedding even if we decided to have it on the moon!
I feel like if the bride in question for the DW hadn't blatantly told someone they were expecting 50 guests but inviting 375 then it wouldn't be as much of a faux pas. There's no reason to tell anyone that. That was just a dumb move. And I thought in general people having DWs had small guest lists - am I wrong on that?
Ugh, I hate it when people judge couples on their wedding location choice. Like, either you can attend and make a vacation out of it, or you can't. Who the heck cares!? The wedding day, while about families coming together, are mainly about the couple, and people need to respect that.
If I ever get a DW invitation and I can't go, I'll just say, "That's too bad" and go on with life - no judgement passed on how the couple chose to celebrate. Many of my family members who are not yet engaged have said they want destination weddings, and for a close family member, I would be there with bells on barring any major illnesses or severe unforeseen blows to my bank account.
Interesting post. It was very funny because a friend of ours is inviting 150 people to a DW and anticipating 75, but made sure to tell us about where they were registered. DW put a huge financial burden on friends and family, if you can afford to pay for those nearest and dearest, by all means, it can be a cost effective and beautiful way to do things. Thinking your friends will be excited to shell out $4000 to attend your wedding and have a "holiday" built in is selfish and unrealistic. I like to pick our own vacation locals thanks!
I mostly agree with MM- inviting 375 people and expecting 50 is a little odd. I'm guessing the bride and groom were not inviting 375 close family members and friends :) Perhaps a marriage announcement would have been more appropiate after the wedding?
I disagree with her slightly snide comment "location matters more than the guest list".. I don't think it matters where a couple gets married, it is their choice (and really cool!).We wanted to do a DW wedding, but the budget wouldn't allow us to pay for both the wedding and our guests travel expenses so we got married local. As for the last question, both Ms. Manners and the asker are a little caddy. If people want to have a pirate themed wedding- who are they to judge?
Literally the ONLY time when I think it's not OK for a couple to have a DW is if a member or members of the IMMEDIATE family of the bride and groom are too ill/elderly to travel and they know this when they are planning the wedding. Like, there's no way my grandma would be able to travel to a DW and I would never in a million years put her in that position even if my dream my entire life since I was a little girl was to get married in some English castle or the beach in Hawaii or wherever. But that's just my opinion.
I used to really enjoy reading Miss Manners but not so much lately - she's not very mannerly. I like reading Prudie a lot better, since the author behind that one isn't such a stuck up bitchy grandma.
Also, I think a bride who says something like "Yeah, we're inviting 375 but only expecting 50" is being more realistic than selfish. Those 375 ARE actually invited, it's not a fake invitaiton just asking for gifts. And even if you knew for sure that a family member could not attend your wedding you would still send an invitation, b/c regardless they are invited.
Again, I can see where she's coming from with her point that the couple is putting their wishes ahead of their guests check books, but seriously like I said before as long as the couple is paying for it then they have the right to get married wherever the heck they want!
@Kittyachi: our guest list was bigger than what we actually expected, because my DH didn't want anyone to feel left out. His argument was: if they can come and would like to take a vacation with us, who would we be to choose for them by not inviting?
@Pugsandkisses: yes it is possible for people to make a vacation out of it, and those who didn't wish to take a vacation at our locale just answered "no" and those who came had a blast.
That being said, we carefully chose our wording in our invites, so that people would NOT be guilted into coming. It was more like, hey, if you want to come for vacation, we're organising a group thing, and we'll get married during that trip. Can't remember the precise words and it was way less casual obviously, but no one felt like they HAD to come. And we have had friends who replied No and went to other vacation places like, the week after. We didn't take offense at all, because we weren't getting married to have the biggest guest list possible.
We enjoyed quality time with each of our guests and it was amazing.
I actually agree with her. It is inappropriate to invite 325 people they don't expect to attend. If the majority of their guest list can't come then either a) they should change their wedding plans or b) their list is completely padded with people that aren't very important to them.
Yes, a couple does have the right to do whatever they want, but if they don't care about their guests they should just elope.
@cakegal: while 375 invites is a large number, we don't know that person and her social circle, so it's easy to pass judgment without knowing.
We knew all people we invited wouldn't be able to come, and we didn't expect them to, but it doesn't mean we didn't care about them - if they could've come, we would have been delighted.
However, having 0, 10 or 100 guests would have never changed the fact that we were getting married at that date. It's not about how many can come, it's about the commitment.
It's a choice that is unconventional, but not mean or selfish. It's about really thinking about what is important to you in your wedding and staying true to that. For some, it's about sharing it with many people, for others it's about it being intimate, for others, it's about committing to each other no matter how many people come.
It's different and it's ok. We don't see anyone passing judgement on huge weddings even if there are lots of things that could be criticized about them, but only because it's the norm. I think it's time for some to stop criticizing what's different just because it's not what you would have chosen and let people celebrate their most important day like they wish to without judging.
I think the number of her social circle is irrelevent. That is a 13% attendence rate. If they were inviting 15 people at that percentage only 1 could come. To me that is worth rethinking your plans over.
I don't know what I think of destination weddings, but I think it really depends on the couple and their intentions. No one I've ever interacted with who is having a DW has seemed to pick the location for any sort of extraordinarily selfish/rude reason.
The theme weddings answer made me laugh a little, but I don't see how a DW or the wedding of two people who have been living together for a long time is a "theme", nor do I think two people living together for even ten years should be ridiculed or judged as having impure motives (ie., raising enough money to buy a house) if they choose to get married and throw a party for the occasion. Yeesh. I felt it'd be less special if FI and I waited till we can get legally married for health insurance purposes (ie., 11 years after we'd started living together and agreed we'd get married at some point), but that's just me. If another couple feels differently, let them have their celebration after ten years. They're still committing themselves to spending their life with one person, either way.
Look at her. She's one of the old people who can't travel. Bias.
I'm having a DW with a home town reception. Were only inviting our parents and a friend each. We really dont want a lot of people there and if we were having it at home we would have to explain to EVERYONE why they are not invited.
All I gotta say is... ouch! Plus, how do we know that all the 375 guests that she is inviting is all of the brides guests. It may be people her parents want invited. Her and the FI probably only wanted 100 people to really come but one parent can easily ask for everyone's brother to come.
I'm usually a fan of MM but this I disagree with. Plus from the tone of the author of the letter, she seems like she is annoyed about this DW. And as with weddingbee, usually if you have a snippy question, you'll get a snippy response.
Dang Miss Manners! I think she woke up on the wrong side of the bed the day she wrote these posts.
I know her comment is not the popular opinion here at the hive, and I agree with PPs - if a DW is what you want, that's your choice! Maybe to you the location IS more important than the guest list. And I can totally understand inviting 375 to garner 50 attending - it isn't necessarily a gift grab.
BUT I think it's relevant to note that Miss Manners isn't the only one who feels this way. Regardless of the reasons DWBrides choose to go the destination route, there will be people who are upset about it. Upset they got invited but can't attend, upset they got invited and feel obligated to attend, upset they feel they are expected to send a gift, upset they have to spend so much money, upset they didn't get invited because the guestlist was trimmed, etc. etc. etc.
While this opinion may not line up with yours, in my experience, it IS a fairly common thought among the non-wedding world. My family got crazy upset when J and I briefly discussed the possibility of going destination - and we wouldn't have gone far from home. I think it's fair that brides considering a DW hear that from the get go, as they make their decision. That way they can appropriately assess whether the criticism they are bound to recieve with worth the pretty locale to them individually. It's all part of making an informed decision.
Meh. I'm sure there are couples throwing DW with some selfish motives, but I'm also sure there are couples throwing hometown weddings with selfish motives.
I think there are two big issues she missed. 1) For many modern families, a DW can be rather convenient. If you have family all over the country, a DW can actually be easier and more pleasant than travelling to the couple's or the bride or the groom's hometown. It isn't like travelling to Chicago (a town I LOVE) in February is SOOO much easier/more pleasant than getting to Mexico. Vacation destinations can have fabulous flight and accomodation deals. 2) People send courtesy invites. That is just true, and I think it is the RIGHT thing to do. I know my grandparents and FI's great aunts aren't going to make it. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't love to have them there, and would exclude them from the invite list.
I'm having a semi-destination wedding (4 hours from my home). It isn't super convenient, but because I chose a gorgeous location, some guests are coming who never would have bothered. The vast majority of the guest list was out of state as it was.
Miss Manners definitely has an opinion. The wedding in question does sound out of line of planning for 50 but inviting over 300... But that's just looking at it thinking that everyone lives somewhere nearby and would come if it was at home. However, I know that is not always the case. I have close family and friends who live all over the US and actually have some close friends and family in far distant locations all over the globe. (If you actually would love to have everyone there and know that what ever they do the guests are going to have to travel then it's probably not going to matter...and in some hometowns it might be less costly to go away than to stay at home, so I agree it's not fair to judge the unknown. I know I'm unusual to have such a spread out group of friends and family and still have a close relationship with each of them, but it does happen... As for Miss Manners themed weddings... I think that some unique themes fit the couple! (If you love vintage 1940s clothing or medieval faires then why not have a themed event that matches you!) It's not any different than having a tea party or a black tie event. However, I do agree that if you've been living together for the past ten years and suddenly decide to have a grand wedding it seems a little strange to me. (I'd rather see a couple choose to have a small wedding and a big anniversary party.) I know I have some very traditional values, so that may seem strange to some of you, but to me, part of the celebration of a wedding is the joining of two families making a new family combining the old and the new! When you have already lived together...and are a virtually a married couple who didn't think the vows were important, then it rings a little hollow when you want the huge party and the big gifts. (I actually think the big party is fine, because maybe it represents that you have grown together and now can see the value of the the promises that you are making.) But gift registration seems odd, I guess because wedding gifts are to set up a household.
Monitajb, I agree with you up to a point. And I don't think the sort of wedding you are having is what we are talking about here. But a wedding that 80% of the invitees can't attend isn't more convenient.
It is possible to plan a wedding that reflects the bride and groom, while still putting the convenience and care of the guests first.
People feel the need to comment on anything wedding related- DW or not. I got just as many ridiculous comments when researching a wedding in our home town as I did when researching and finally deciding on a destination wedding. I am a FIRM believer in the decision of the wedding location, guest list, ect., being up to the bride and groom- unless someone else is paying for it. Personally I do not care for the more "traditional" wedding, but do I make my opinions known to others, especially other brides? Of course not, because it is none of my business, it's incredibly rude, and who am I to judge how a couple should express their love? Do what you want.
Umm...why is everyone always putting the guests first in their decisions? Why "ought" you put the guests first? If it all about the wedding, then I don't think a bride and groom MUST be accommodating to guests. They can choose to get married in a setting they prefer, and then invite everyone to join them. It is the guests' choice to join them or not, why put that on the bride and groom? As long as the bride and groom make no requests of the guests, I don't see a problem with it. (Now if you're demanding gifts or something that's a different story!)
Also, everyone is always saying how you "have" to invite your family, let your parents invite their friends, give a plus one to everyone, etc. So why is it unbelievable that she has a large guest list? Maybe she doesn't want to invite most of them but is bound by convention to invite them anyway? Not enough details to really explain that, but I'm just sayin'...
I also think MM is a bit snarky about it all...what if the bride and groom are from two separate countries? One family will consider it a DW, right? Oh my gosh, how rude of them! ::gasp::
Her themed wedding response was expected though...I mean the asker didn't exactly put the themed weddings in the best light and it sounds like MM may be jonesing for some nicotine or something...she really needs a smoke before she replies!
I think it's terrible for Miss Manners to assume a couple is putting themselves and the location before the guests. I had a DW because FI and I are from different countries and it was the fair thing to do for our guests.
Okay - Miss Manners needs to get laid.
@Mighty Sapphire - also think MM is a bit snarky about it all...what if the bride and groom are from two separate countries? One family will consider it a DW, right? Oh my gosh, how rude of them! ::gasp::
I am like aloweha in this exact situation - my family is american and my partner is from New Zealand. It is not an easy situation to be in AT ALL and is going to be destination for at least some of the guests.
Miss Manners, better hope you don't ever meet me in a dark alley, m'kay??
THANK you Mighty Sapphire! I thought it was just me. Why IS the guest so much more important than the bride and groom? So everything is supposed to be centered around them? I understand making people comfortable, but you don't make people comfortable and forgo comfort for yourself.
And everytime I see people saying DW this, DW that. Heck, I had a friend send out 400 invites for her hometown wedding!
A comment was made earlier about how DW brides and grooms should be ready to face criticism.
I believe that, when planning a wedding, no matter how you plan it, you will get criticism for one thing or another, from your family, inlaws and many people who should just not comment because it's not their wedding.
I sure hope that here on WB, brides who are going through it themselves can have the sensitivity to not do it to others; as we all know how rude it is when people judge and analyse every decision made without knowing the reasons - and without needing to know the reasons because, why should a couple have to justify any of their choices regarding their union, really?
I don't think Dw's are a problem. I do think that couples who have DW's and expect their guests to shell out the money to come, is a problem. Just because someone has been given a year to "save up" to go to a wedding, doesn't mean they should have to. Nor should a bride or groom feel hurt if somoene who could afford to spend the money says it's too expensive. Maybe they've got other expenses they feel are a priority.
I know this isn't popular, but I can see the point at DWs. In my family/ social circle, the wedding ceremony is about the bride and groom, but the reception is really for the families to celebrate. It would be considered incredibly rude if I didn't make accommodations to make sure that both immediate family and other relatives would be able to make it to the ceremony and reception. Both my FI and I checked with a variety of individuals (immediate family, grandparents, etc) when we picked our wedding date. Because we wanted to show that we cared for our guests, we chose a location that was easily accessible for a majority of our guests. This is obviously different in different social circles, but for me, a DW wouldn't be appropriate - as much as I would like to think that a wedding is about the bride and the groom, it's not (at least in my case) - it's about our families coming together and celebrating with the newly married couple.
As someone who is having a DW, here is my two cents:
A wedding is your special day. You are inviting other people to share it with you, but not demanding that they come. There is NO venue that will be able to accomodate all your guests and make everyone happy. So why not at least pick a venue that pleases you and your fiance?
As someone who is having a DW, here is my two cents:
A wedding is your special day. You are inviting other people to share it with you, but not demanding that they come. There is NO venue that will be able to accomodate all your guests and make everyone happy. So why not at least pick a venue that pleases you and your fiance?
I agree with egb that no matter WHAT, a bride (and sometimes groom) will get critisizm about their choices. And forget different countries, FI is from Detroit and I'm from Philly and we live in NYC so no matter WHERE we decided to get married, it would be a destination for both friends and immediate family. Actually the only person critisizing me right now is my Gmom and I'm doing my absolute best to tune her out b/c she is the kind who thinks of somthing to critisize if there isn't anything obvious.
As another who is having a DW, has been living in sin for 9 yrs together (yeah, we both were a little gunshy about remarriage with 1+ divorces behind us), and not having a theme (ok, if you count that my entire wedding party except for my MOH are all children, we could call it the unaccompanied minor theme!).
We live in the middle of the Pacific, while no other members of our family do. They are strung out from Texas and Oklahoma to California and the Pacific Northwest. Rather than guilt everyone into planning a spendy Hawaiian vacation, we opted for Vegas. It's in the middle of everyone, cheap airfare/driving distance for most, low hotel rates for all, and the odds of having those nearest and dearest to us greatly increases.
It is actually a huge inconvenience for us, but we want our family and friends to be able to share our day and celebrate with us (they've all been waiting for it for a long time and are excited to say the least).
We are not expecting major gifts other than cards as everyone will already have put out time off work, money out of pocket for travel, meals, and lodging. Invites will be going out shortly, but nearly half RSVPd on the STD alone and gotten vacation days off well in advance. We are also paying airfare and hotel for at least one group who would not have been able to afford the event.
Take that Miss Manners and chew on it for a bit. If we could have our wedding on home ground, we might as well have eloped and had a lovely gift grab after the fact. Sometimes a DW is better for everyone, but I get what she is saying in the big picture. I just wanted to share how sometimes there are perfect circumstances to have a DW--and as we all know, sometimes there are not.
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