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I hope this thread doesn't get too controversial, but I wanted to vent about something that's been bugging me. I think I gave it some thought today because I was listening to religious-type Christmas music.
A girl I know has been known to openly say she doesn't believe in God and that people who do are pretty lame. She has said some very rude stuff. I never fight back because this girl is really really awful and I wouldn't want to be on her bad side. But it's hurtful because I was raised Catholic and now attend an Anglican church, and I find her comments so ignorant.
Anyways, all over facebook the last couple weeks she's been talking about buying Christmas gifts and baking Christmas cookies, putting up a tree, etc. and I am just starting to get a bit irritated.
How can you celebrate Christmas when you think God is "lame"?
I agree, completely. But his might be the one connection she has to God. She might not believe it now. But something about the Christmas season might open her eyes one day. Here's hoping and praying.
It shouldn't be called Christmas, it should be called Consumermas. So much of the stuff surrounding the holiday has nothing to do with religion, and unless you're going to church and have that mindset already, all the traditions are just a way of experiencing the warm fuzzies.
Your question reminds me of this great joke. "What do you say to an atheist who sneezes? When you die, nothing happens?" :P
At any rate, the ironic self-righteousness of some non-religious people can be obnoxious, especially around holidays like Christmas. Bah humbug to them. :)
I think it's pretty insensitive of her to put down religion just because she's an atheist. But regarding celebrating Christmas - would you be against Jews celebrating it because they don't believe in Jesus? I think it's a little exclusive to say Christmas is just for Christians.
For us "non-believers", Christmas is about celebrating family, friends, love, appreciation for others- all things that 1) Jesus preached and 2) even us agnostics believe in (imagine this!). Why does Christmas have to be about God and religion, and why can't it be about the importance of family? Afterall, that's all Jesus really wanted anyway. Seems like such a belief can be unnecessarily devisive.
I'm not really religious but I still like Christmas. It's just a tradition from childhood (raised Catholic) and for me, it's grown to symbolize all the things that Alissa mentioned.
Thanks everyone for their comments.
@alissa70- Well, simply put, Christmas is a Christian holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus!
I don't necessarily get upset about non-Christians celebrating Christmas. I know that it's become somewhat of a consumer holiday anyways. The big problem I guess is how awful she is and how badly she puts down the Christian faith, but then has no problem celebrating Christmas and accepting gifts from people. I just think it's unbelievably hypocritical.
Maybe you shouldn't lump every nonreligious person in with this girl you know. I'm sure she would be awful even if she called herself a Christian.
For lots of people, even those who believe in God, Christmas is not celebrated in any kind of religious way. When I was a kid, my parents hardly ever mentioned Jesus or God in relation to Christmas. We focused on spending time together as a family, and eating too much ham and Santa and Rudolph. :)
As an adult, I do not believe in God, but I still enjoy Christmas. Going through all the tradition and ritual reminds me of what it was like when I was a child, and it's something I intend to pass on to any children I have.
Agree with Alissa. Though I do think it is rude of your friend to diss religion, I sometimes feel like people are preaching their religion to me as well. I think everyone should let others believe what they want and not bother others about it unless they ask!
@JoesWifey - I respect that :) But do you go around putting down Christians and calling God lame? I suspect not lol.
This girl sounds like a real pain in the neck. Just because she is super self-righteous about being an athiest and doesn't mean she needs to go around labelling those whole believe in God as "lame". Self-rightousness is a quality I really dislike in anyone, wether they are non-religious or religious.
That said, for many the Christmas/God connection just doesn't exist. For example, my FI grew up in a family that celebrated Christmas, but his parents were Buddhist. They didn't focus on the birth of Christ, but did focus on spending time together as a family, putting up decorations, and doing Christmas baking. For them (and many, religious or not), Christmas is really just about spending time with your loved ones. And this is really evident when I visit them over the holidays.
Now, Minutiae has a great point. Unfortunately, Christmas has outwardly evolved into a consumerist holiday where the more presents you get your loved ones equates to how good of a Christmas they have. Yikes! I guess what I am trying to say is, wether one is religious or not, Christmas is really just about being with your family and appreciating each other.
I agree that Christmas means different things to different people. To each their own.
I am really hurt that people think I am being judgemental! Please do not think I am lumping people in with her. I thought I made the post pretty clear that it's her who is my problem.
For the record I do not think she is an awful person because she is not a Christian... wow. I really don't think my post was written that way.
Also, I am not preaching!!! And I don't preach, ever. But if someone is going to sit there and say rude things about things I believe in, I think I am entitled to say something and be upset about it.
Ditto Alissa x2.
This is a bit of a contentious issue...and this isn't intended to be taken the wrong way, but in all fairness, as an atheist, I do not think God is lame, because that would imply I believe in God.
I wasn't saying that you think she is a bad person for not being Christian. I was just saying that her saying bad things about your religion is bad and so is the other way around. Not saying that you are doing it though just a general comment.
As a "non-believer", I will not defend this person's derision of people who do believe in God, but I will also say that while the origins of Christmas are religious, it is also a cultural tradition in the Western world. I love Christmas for what it represents: Peace on Earth, Goodwill towards Men. Those concepts are not exclusive to Christianity nor to religion in general. We need more of that in our lives, regardless of what we believe or don't believe.
I respect everyone's beliefs, not matter what they may be.
I guess I probably worded this post poorly. I should have just vented about this girl :)
@OttowaBride - Please don't think that I am implying or assuming that you are judgemental. Your point is an interesting one for sure. I imagine if this girl were less annoying or self-righteous, you wouldn't feel quite as strongly about her affinity for Christmas.
@mhirni - YES. That is what I should have put more emphasis on lol.
Sorry Ottowabride if I misunderstood you. (Disclaimer, the following rant is not intended to mean you! :) )
I just get so sick every year of hearing "Christians" whine and cry about how they feel no one acknowledges the religious meaning behind Christmas while at the same time they are trying to outspend and outgift each other and are freaking out because someone wished them "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". Those types of people are just as hypocrital as your "God is lame" gal.
But I also live in the southern part of the US where people tend to be more "in-you-face" with their religion. I don't care if people are religious, I just wish they'd extend me the same courtesy! :)
Personally, I don't think one's experience of Christmas necessarily needs to be linked to God. Yes, historically and religiously, Christmas is very much connected to religion. But Christmas is more than that at this point. It's not just about religion. It's about celebrating your family and friends with get-togethers and gifts.
For me, I'm not religious. I'm agnostic. I don't know what's out there. I don't know what's governing us. But despite this, I love Christmas, because it has a meaning for me that's different from what it meant historically.
I wouldn't take her so personally. If she's a jerk, she's a jerk. But I think it's OK that Christmas means different things to different people.
@blackcherry - i agree! i don't push my religion on anyone and i don't usually talk about it unless i am asked!! i think everyone should just let everyone live their lives!
Religion/faith/beliefs are such a personal thing, people get going really easily...and because it is such a contentious topic, I think posts can be read/taken in different tones than intended. You post lots, I didn't think you were looking to cause a stir!
But this girl sounds pretty awful to have no consideration for anyone's feelings or opinions, that's just rude in general, no matter what she is talking about...
I am sorry that you have to deal with the immature attitude of that girl, but as several posters have mentioned...faith and christmas' image have changed a lot, have become quite commercial. in our household when i was growing up, we were not religious. i believe in a higher power, but always enjoyed (and still do) learning about different holiday traditions and doing the whole celebration.
There are rude people everywhere, in every race and religion(or lack thereof). Don't let it get to you!
@Ottawa...I understood where you were coming from. I think in the US particularly, the "Christ" has been stripped from "Christmas" so you have a lot of people doing "Christ-masy" things without giving thought to the intent behind the holiday. Christmas is a religious holiday...it is the celebration of the birth of the son of God, Jesus Christ. Everybody knows this, but as the years go by...less emphasis is put on that specific fact, and more emphasis is put on what that birth meant in a more general sense and not a Christian one: good will toward men, peace, love, family, etc. I would never try to force someone into celebrating Christmas in the same way that I, or my family, celebrate but I also don't want anybody disparaging me, or a religious holiday that is important to me....because they don't believe.
Having said ALL THAT...LOL...the girl you know is out of order.
I think of it like this...non-religious/non-Christian people are not actually celebrating Christmas, they are using the holiday season to celebrate being with family and friends, love, peace, and all that. Just like observing a moment of silence at the game...you may not be religious so you don't pray in that moment, you reflect on other things while at the same time respecting the fact that others may be praying.
This is JMO...hope no one is offended
I'm not religious at all, but I still celebrate Christmas. I'm actually just a fan of the holiday season, but my family does the whole Christmas thing, so that's when I do most of my celebrating. For me, Christmas doesn't have anything to do with god... I'm not celebrating the birth of anyone; I'm just enjoying the season where I get to see my family and eat good food (and yes, get lots of presents). Before Christianity, December 25th was actually a Pagan holiday celebrating the sun god. We actually use christmas trees (or holiday trees as I call them :) ) because Pagans used to celebrate the winter solstice with evergreens. When Christianity was becoming more popular, it kind of adopted a lot of Pagans traditions to make the transition easier. Anywho, I'm just saying that to point out that christmas didn't even start out as Christian, so it seems silly to think that Christians are the only people that can celebrate it.
That girl is definitely being insensitive and should watch what she says. But to answer your original question of how non-Christians can celebrate Christmas....
Having a mid-winter celebration is pagan in origin. Most cultures celebrated the turning point of winter to try and bring a little cheer into the long, dark days. (They did this by bringing evergreen boughs inside and feasting.) The Christian/Catholic Church couldn't tell people to stop celebrating a holiday so important to the mental well-being of it's followers so they started celebrating the birth of Jesus at the same time. (I believe he is currently thought to have actually been born in the spring.) That way they could still have a holiday but it wouldn't be associated with pagans. This is one reason why many conservation denominations don't celebrate Christmas - it's not entirely Biblical. This was actually the case with many holidays that are only associated with Christianity today. The saying that the winners write history is quite true.
While not scientific, there's more information here and here.
@Jamaicabride - Very well put :) I totally agree and that's a great way of looking at it.
@caitlanc-You're right. The bible actually says that jesus was born in May (or perhaps March). It's been a while since I opened a bible. haha.
Christmas is a weird holiday because at this point in history so much secularism has merged with the christian tradition of christmas to wehre we have santa's standing up in nativity scenes, etc.
Personally, I'm more likely to call it an american holiday, but it's ignorant to think it doesn't even have christian roots.
Some christians get up in arms about it, but christmas is one thing I don't judge non-christians for celebrating because it's become a cultural thing. Why should they acknowledge the birth of a savior they don't believe in?
All that said, we celebrate christmas from the perspective that it is the day Jesus was born, sing christmas carols, etc. I just don't find christmas
to be the best jumping off point to talk about my faith, because even though it's a traditionally christian holiday, it's less so in America. It's not also a biblical holiday...so it's not mandated for christians to celebrate.
@Boston Bee - I was thinking April or May but I just saw this one saying he was born in September or October. Then again, it seems a little out there... (People cut down an evergreen tree because it's phallic? Really? That's pushing it.)
@JamaicaBride I agree with you 100%!
And to everyone... I don't think it'd be bad for all of us to practice the values of the holiday season all year... it's a shame that OP's girl doesn't :(
Christmas is actually not Jesus's birthday and is actually an adaptation of a pagan holiday called Saturnalia. Christians adopted the holiday trying to convert the pagans to Christians and then because the holiday was not intrinsically Christian they named it Jesus' birthday even though no one actually knows when Jesus's birthday was.
So originally it was not a Christian holiday at all.
I am sorry that this girl says inappropriate remarks regarding your religion; however, it is also inappropriate to judge non-religious people for celebrating Christmas.
Regardless of the original beginnings and how culture has changed it, Christmas is a Christian holiday and that's the last I am going to post on this issue.
@FMM: it is pretty widely accepted that this is the day Christians choose to celebrate Jesus' birthday, whether their ancestors had the right idea or not. It became a Christian holiday and now is becoming a secular celebration separate from the idea. However, the symbols of the tree with a star/angel on top, Saint Nicholas and Jesus' message of peace and love are still Christian in their roots, so she isn't totally off-base in expressing her distaste for someone's disgraceful remarks about her religion and then this girl being hypocritical about it. I don't see how she's being inappropriate in a little bit of complaining about this ONE person.
There's lots of thoughtful points here so I'll stay away from the main topic.
But I did want to point out that Christmas is also a big holiday in some parts of the "Eastern world"! Christmas is HUGE in Japan, and not for religious reasons... I was really surprised!
As a non-believer, I celebrate and love Christmas. It means something different to me.
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