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OK! so I am fairly new to this whole military life thing..(less than 2 years..). All I know about military life is what I see on Army wives and from my USAF officer FI. My FI grew up as a military brat and his dad was enlisted...Fi then went to USAFA and is now an officer. Is there really this social divide between enlisted and officers??? An officer's wife recently responded on one of my posts something to the effect of.. 'this cost this much..and that cost that much..can you really afford that on an AIRMAN's salary because MY husband is an OFFICER and we would struggle'. Ill tell you, I was furious for all of the enlisted wives that this sterotype of officers' wives is true and they think they are better! I was litterally disgusted by the comment, and FI was too! I know that salary is no secret in the military..but DAMN.. I feel like it is sooooooo reduntant to bring up SOMEONE ELSE'S finances! At that moment, i was ashamed to be an officer's wife. Have any of you come across this behavior? Do you enlisted wives have experience with other wives like this? This is so tasteless and disgracefull..
My cousin is an officer's wife and is the most down to earth person I know. She would die rather than offend someone or bring up finances in public.
@EmeraldR: OK thankyou! I feel the same way! I am glad that the sterotype doesn't always hold true. My FI did tell me that it is not appropriate for me to hang out with the enlisted wives though.. (i have NO wives as friends..enlisted or officer) but I feel like.. how can you tell me who to be friends with??! I understand he is like the boss.. but jeeze.. I can be friends with the my husband's boss in the 'real world' can't i??
@Karissa: Ha. I would be too, and if she's going to stereotype, how about this: every officer in the Air Force I knew cheated on their wife. Seriously. It was AWFUL. I was in the Air Force for 4 years and to this day if a guy tells me he is/was an Officer I get a shiver down the back of my spine. My old boss at my civilian company is married to a girl I worked with in another dept. I saw this picture of him before I knew him and I was like: OH NO YOU'RE MARRIED TO AN OFFICER?
Yeah. Sad to say. They're still married and have 2 babies. Oh, and he has another one with another girl that works with us. Niiiiice.
Total tangent, but officer's and their wives think they're better because they're commissioned. Anyone can google the paychart for the military and know what a person's MILITARY income is -- but how does that tell them anything ELSE about their finances?
Im the wife of an enlisted airman. I can say Ive never really had any experiences of officer's wives being like that. Of course, I do not live with my husband at the moments and I have little experience dealing with military wives as a whole. I do know that in my experience (mostly in forums) there does seem to be 2 groups, you have the really nice helpful wives and then you have the snotty, cliquey mean girl wives. I wouldnt say that divide is exclusive to the military though. Not at all. I just think that there are more of the 2nd group. I have definitely had some wives on some forums talk down to me like a moron for asking a question when DH first enlisted, it really kind of soured me on wife forums. I am not a participating member in any right now. I stick to WB because the ladies here aren't snotty bitches. :) (Love you guys!) I hang out more with the other airmen than I do their spouses. All of DHs buddies are pretty awesome.
I mean, its common knowledge the massive disparity in pay between enlisted and officer, even NCO. Talking about it seems very catty and inappropriate.
My dad was in the military my whole life, so although I was a kid, I do think there is a division between enlisted wives/families vs. officers wives/famlies.
I think alot of this has first to do with housing, if your an officer you live near other officers, you have your own community w/ very few if any enlisted families living in your "neighborhood." So naturally wives become friends with neighbors and kids become friends with other officers kids.
Secondly, there are different family functions that occur w/in these divisions. For example, my dad was in the medical field, so we had many hospital family functions - once again the people present were mostly of a certain rank; therefore we saw them more often.
And like you said, rankings and salaries are to a level, prettyclear, so everyone does kind of have an idea of what your income is just based on that.
However, regardless of this "divison" people are people and some have tact and some don't. No matter what a person's income is, its up to the individual to be polite and classy.
@deetroitwhat: ok i really hope you dont know my FI then! LOL Listen, I have been a civi my whole life and I didn't even know there was a difference between officers and enlisted! Who the hell cares who is commissioned?! Most people don''t even know what that is! And AMEN about the finances.. how pretentious!
The only officer's wife I have had any association with was my FRG leader and while we only "met" through email, she seemed awesome! I have heard of this happening before, about the big social divide between officer and enlisted, but I was fortunate enough to never experience that...then again, that could have something to do with the fact that my DH and I lived apart and I never lived with him on post. lol And honestly, I don't care if it was an officer's wive, an enlisted wife, a joechomoe's wife, lol....but I would get highly irritated if anyone made any assumptions about whether or not my DH and I could afford something...
I think you sound like a real good experience as to what an officer's wife should act like....maybe kick that other lady in the shins?...kidding about the kicking part.. :)
I think it really just depends on the person. I know O wives who are lovely and some are absolute snobs.
@AnnieAAA: That makes a lot of sense. We do not live on base (for some reason the base housing is way too far away from the actual base) so I continue to have no experience with the military bubble..
@JsDragonfly: LOL!!! I wish I could! My FI was enraged!!! He kept looking at WB all night hahaha!!! I feel the same way.. who cares who my husband is.. his job does not define me as a person. And I feel the same way about the finances thing.. I was so grossed out by her comment.. partially because it was about finances and partially because it was a fellow military wife! Instead of us being supportive towards one another because we have similar backgrounds and tasks.. it was like purely judgemental!
@Karissa: Right!!! I mean, that's crazy to say something like that--and no, I don't know your FI lol. But such stereotypes are rude and unecessary.
@missyjane77: eek.. maybe this one was just a snob. good to know they are not all like that and quite a few people have had good experiences
I am the wife of an officer. I live and work in a town saturated by the military. In my experience all military spouses can be divided into two categories: Those that are helpful, positive, nice people and those who are not. I personally try to spend as much time with the first category as I can. Should those women be married to enlisted sailors or officers, I don't care. I am not in the military and neither are they and consequently, rank does not affect us.
Yes, rank does play a small role in how friendly we can be as couples. I admit that when it comes to the enlisted wives with whom I am friends, we tend to hang out without our husbands. Given how little time our husbands spend off of the ship though, I can't even remember the last time that PenguinGuy and I spent time with another military couple.
We need to remember that unless we signed on the dotted line as well, we as spouses are NOT bound by the same rules as our MM. In spite of our need to respect our spouse's inability to fraternize if we have friends who are on the 'other side' of the enlisted/officer divide, we are more than able and ought to be encouraged to socialize with other spouses regardless of what their MM does.
I am sorry that you had such a rude welcome to the world of military spouses. I can say with absolute certainty that not all spouses of officers are like that. Keep an open mind and judge each person individually rather than on the actions of others.
The divide is HUGE. I accidentally invited an officer to sit at our table at the new join brief (we just PCDd) and my husband told me to never invite an officer to sit with us again.
Seriously, I am SO not good at looking for their rank. Sigh.
But there is a major major major divide between officers and enlisted, and it is worst in the marine corps, not so bad in the navy. Not sure about the other branches.
Now, this doesn't mean you can't be friends with them, (like the previous poster said)but it does make it more difficult. And, of course, you must remember how important it is to have your own friends (not your husband's friends) or you get swallowed up.
Military wives have to be strong, and we all deal with it differently. Some deal with it by being mean. Others deal with it by living within a confines that has rules that are understandable. Both of these two types will be hard to befriend outside your husband's rank. The rest, the more down to earth ladies... it doesn't matter.
@ellabee: wow... thats hard to hear for me honestly.. I just keep referencing the caste system..
My ex's father is an officer. You would have never known had you met his wife.
I just keep referencing the caste system..
This is the exact stereotype that many spouses are trying to overcome each and every single day.
Do you remember when you (in general) were planning your wedding? Do you remember how there were people who automatically assumed you went all bridezilla on your friends and family? Do you remember how much it hurt to be lumped with those insane women who would throw tantrums, lie, and act like a complete monster just to get 'the wedding of her dreams'? Well, that is the pain with which the nice, sweet, kind military spouses deal every time someone perpetuates the stereotype that military spouses think and live in a caste system.
If you don't care so much about yourself (again, all general you) because you have 'been there, done that' and have already made a judgement call that works for you, what about all of the new spouses that have no clue what they are getting into being in a relationship with a MM? Perpetuating the idea that military spouses thrive on drama and gossip and wear the rank of theier husbands can REALLY have negative consequencees. An example you say? Sure...
I recently went to a FRG meeting. At the meeting was a somewhat new spouse, she got married this past summer and was still VERY uncomfortable with her role as a military spouse. Her husband had warned her away from joining the FRG because he had heard and bought into the stereotypes of military spouses being catty and bratty. He didn't want her getting involved in the drama and being subjected to the snobby spouses of officers as he is a junior enlisted. Well, his wife was pregnant at the time of the meeting. If she had not come to meeting she would not have received the papers listing resources and upcoming events for pregnant spouses. She would have missed meeting the daughter of one of the other spouses who does babysitting and was able to watch her kids while she went to appointments. SHe would have missed out on learning a great deal about upcoming ship events, including information about deployment. In other words, if she had bought into the stereotypes, she would probably have had a much more rough time in the following months than she has and will have thanks to what she learned from a group of dedicated, nice spouses.
I made the comment, and it was not meant to offend. You have my sincerest apology if that comment made you feel like any less of a person.
"My husband is an officer and we would have trouble" was an attempt to illustrate I have a decent idea of your financial situation as I am in a similar one- it was a poor attempt to relate. I can see totally see how it was percieved negatively, all I can say it was not meant how you percieved it.
@maureen9004:There's so much self-perceived difference, that sometimes we ourselves make simple situations into more complicated one.
Sorry it turned out that way.
@Penguingal06: Ok, I am fairly new also so I can be completely wrong. BUT are you saying the divide does exist but we can't have that hinder us from basically living our lives? Because the divide does exist. I guess so far we have established that there are some really nice wives and some really snobby ones both officers and enlisted. To tell you the truth..I would feel super uncomfortable around a bunch of officers wives also.. not because they are officers wives but just because they already have an established friendship and well.. its hard to allocate to any group of friends that are not my own (hard for me at least). In relation to your example, and this is going to sound really funny, but I am a Hindu and try to go to temple every sunday. I go with my daughter because she likes to go.. but older temple goers are notorious for being very snobby and ordering people around etc. When I first started going..one member actually said to someone else ''who is this girl and where did she come out from?''. I continue to go because my daughter likes it and we also get some cool information there. So anyways..long story short.. I would go for the information but would not make friends with any of these people nor is it appropriate for me (as a younger girl) to approach an older lady.. she has to approach me or else it will basically be disrespectful. Do you think that, even though officers wives are not all catty and bratty that that individual will befriend those officers wives?
@maureen9004: It was very nice of you to apologize maureen, thank you. Its all water under the bridge but it did spark an interesting topic.
@Karissa:It is a caste system.
And as individuals you have the normal break down of wonderful people, jerks, and people that are nice but you somehow don't get along with.
But then, depending how much your SO is stuck in the mindset from work--it comes home with him/her. So it really depends as much on your SO as it does on the system.
Gosh, what an emotional topic this turned out to be! I guess, it's like any system. Like in high school, the freshmen are afraid of the seniors and their year means so much to them and they feel small, but the seniors don't really care very much.
My dad calls it "little people syndrome" where you think less of yourself. It's very hard to break out of. As an enlisted wife, it would be very hard for me to step out of my comfort zone to approach an officers wife at a base function.
HOWEVER, if this was in my regular life and I met her at a museum, or out on the town or in a botanical garden, I would have ZERO trouble talking to her and befriending her.
I think about this thread (and this whole situation) very often. I really hope I don't offend anyone with what I post. This is a difficult thing for me, so I don't mean to offend, but I really do appreciate all the different points of view.
@ellabee: That totally makes sense! (the little people complex). The thing is.. to be honest... I feel the little people complex with ladies that are older than I am. I just don't feel like I would have a whole lot in common with women that are twice my age.. This is quite often the case with officers' wives, no? It is also pretty hard for me to think that I am supposed to befriend officers wives when I might have more in common with younger enlisted wives. It's an age thing for me as opposed to a rank thing. And it is hard for me , as a new comer, to wrap my mind around the whole rank deal. I agree that it is a caste system btw, it might be harder for people emmersed in the life to agree because it just becomes 'the way it is' and 'caste system' carries such a bad connotation. Its a rank system.
@Karissa, I am an Army Infantry officer's wife, and please let me assure you that the O wives I interact with on a daily and weekly basis are most definitely NOT like the one you mentioned in your post! Honestly, I try my hardest to let the rank system remain with the husbands, and certainly don't think I'm "better" than any of my husband's guys' wives. The only time when hierarchy comes into play FOR ME is when I am receiving or disseminating information (via FRG). Things go up the chain, and come back down.
I agree with @penguingal06 - I assess you based on your personality, and willingness to positively contribute to our husbands' unit. However, I disagree with her assertion that rank does not affect us as spouses. Regardless of your spouse's rank, our behavior does reflect on them, whether we want to admit it or not (involvement in FRG, willingness to interact and socialize with other wives, etc).
Also, while I strongly agree that officers' wives and enlisteds' wives should form friendships, I don't think that it is always healthy to do so if the soldier is directly under your husband's command.
Think about it this way: if your hub is my hub's boss, and your husband has to reprimand my husband for something he did wrong, and the punishment comes with a pay- and rank-cut...I, as the wife, would be pretty upset about the situation, right? Even though you are my friend, and I like your husband, I'm probably going to resent him for issuing a punishment to my hub that affects me... This situation would be uncomfortable, at best, and would probably put YOU in an uncomfortable spot: you fully support your husband's decision, but you feel bad for me b/c my husband did something that negatively affected our family. Most likely, this situation would cause some awkwardness between us as a result. (sorry for the lengthy example!)
Don't let someone make you feel ashamed to be an officer's wife! If your husband is anything like mine, he works his a** off to take care of his guys, and views them as his family! I am so proud of him, and EXTREMELY proud to be his wife :) And if you work hard to support him (emotionally, mentally, etc etc) then YOU should be proud of yourself! Being an officer's wife is AS hard as being an officer. (Yes, I said it!)
The best thing you can do is to be involved in your husband's unit, support the hell out of the wives, and treat them like your extended family. There is no other world like the military world (especially once you get into combat arms units), and having a network of supportive friends is crucial :)
Best of luck to you, Karissa!!
ETA: being the wife of ANY military service member is hard, so be proud of your spouse and yourself!!! :)
I used to be a female (obviously) Army NCO.
Special thanks to all of you ladies for supporting your spouses, enlisted and commissioned. If my ex was as supportive as you ladies are, I may have stayed in after my daughter was born.
@phoenix718 - Girl, you have my respect! Army NCOs are some of THE HARDEST WORKING people I have ever met, and I know you put up with a lot of BS ;)
@Mrs. Ranger: Well said about everything you just said!
@phoenix718: You rock! I've heard horror stories about how incredibly difficult an NCOs job is. You have alot of respect from me!
In Canada we get a little behind the wire/in front of the wire snobbery but I've only seen it among soldiers, not the spouses.
@Karissa: You're welcome :) I hope it helped!
@Oneeleven: I think that a similar situation exists here in the US, but being on the Infantry side of things, I wouldn't label it as snobbery. All military personnel should take great pride in their job, as they contribute to the overall success of their branch.
Being married to someone who is 'on the front line' has given me insight that I wouldn't otherwise have, and I wholeheartedly believe that someone who is actively willing to put their life on the line for the preservation and benefit of their fellow soldiers and country reserves the right to hold their head a little higher, and be saluted with genuine respect.
OMG! I watched army wives last night and I totally get it now! :scene: Joan has to dicipline roxy's son and roxy goes to joan's hubby to complain :end: It totally makes sense! Even if soldiers and their wives are not in the directly in the officers chain of command, officers are still in a position of leadership so to speak. It could get really ugly if someone came to me to complain about my hubby's job.. I would feel bad for my friend... But still know that my hubby is doing his job. -Just thought I would share my epiphany-
@Karissa: Here is the thing....being an enlisted wife for 21.5 years, it's not the salary, it's the attitude of MOST officers wives. My husband chose not to be an officer. He had opportunity after opportunity, but decided he wanted more out of life than that. Being an enlisted wife, I have tried to be friendly with officers wives, and the only thing that got me, was attitude. "I'm better than you" was said to me more than once. I don't believe that Nobody on this earth is better than anyone else. I don't care about the officers finances. What you make is your business, not mine. You are only the fiance' not the wife, and when you get married, you will see what will happen....My life has been a good one, never wanting for anything. If you are nasty to the people in your life now, I really wouldn't care to know how you will be as an officers wife. Your FI's father was an enlisted man, and that enlisted man made sure your FI went to that great school in Colorado, and made sure he became an officer....what does that tell you about the enlisted? We give a damn about our children, just as much as an officer does, and we will do what ever we have to to make sure that they have great lives to.
I have read a few of your blogs, and have decided that you really need to stop, and get to know your future in-laws.Truely know them. Your FI's parents are good people...(yes I know them). They would give the shirt off of their backs for anyone, and I have seen it first hand. They have been wonderful to my family, and me personally. It's true that I don't know you, but, when you blog about how you are happy they are not invited, it's kind of sad. Your fiance probrably has told you very many times, that he doesn't care, but you two are actually hurting his brother...one of the sweetest, most considerate teens I have EVER met. You need to stop, and think, your Fiance is most likely saying only the things you want to hear. He has been so close to his parents, until about 2 years ago. I have never felt that kind of love in a family, as I have when I was around the 4 of them. Religion is a strong thing, you can't just blow it off because you don't like it, you have to respect it, and find away around your differences. His family is a truely religious one...I only wish mine was as such. Your FI is a good man, but, do you want that great divide between families? You mentioned that you didn't have a father, well....they are wonderful people to be around. To have a good life, you must stop being so negative.
If this site did not say to not be negative and snarky...i'd have gone on and told you how unbelieveably selfish you are.....people don't want to read your negativity...give it up.
@You only think you know better: WELL! Where do I begin?
Firstly, I started this thread because of that "I'm better than you attitude" that I did NOT like. I don't like to associate myself with people that are so arrogant that they would feel that way; much less say something like that to you! So I believe in that reguard that we are in agreeance. It is very disheartening to be that you have come across those experiences.
'You are only the fiance' not the wife'
- It is very funny that you should bring this up, I am very unsure of where it stands in your argument. You say that you know my FI's family right? And that he says what I want to hear? You don't think your theory is consistent? I am sure that he does the same with his family.
'Your FI's father was an enlisted man, and that enlisted man made sure your FI went to that great school in Colorado, and made sure he became an officer....what does that tell you about the enlisted? We give a damn about our children, just as much as an officer does, and we will do what ever we have to to make sure that they have great lives to.'
-AGREED
'I have read a few of your blogs, and have decided that you really need to stop, and get to know your future in-laws.Truely know them.'
http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/need-help-and-advice
-You should have read this one.
- Oh and don't forget the latest text from last night!
"Look here u the slut u have is nothing to us and will never be. So all that shit she is posting on line about your dad being enlist you need to her her take it out. the same enlisted person you she is talking about is the same one who get you ungreatfull ass to be officer. Now you become big officer you have your slut telling the world what he was. you are the most lying person i ever come across in my like i should have know as a mother but i was too dumb to see. You contunie this path and u will never mount to anything. i wonder how you will feel standing there with no one from your family. Oh wait what am i talking about you have no family you dump the for abastard and a slut. the pain you are causing us when karma come back you will will see and no one will be there for you so go on big time officer. But i hope you will always remeber we are the ones that made you what u r u ungreatful son of a bitch"
'It's true that I don't know you, but, when you blog about how you are happy they are not invited, it's kind of sad.'
-I also blog that they will be invited no matter what. I have told FI on numerous occations that they will be, even when he objects. I remind him that it is his family, I second the notion that they played a major role in his success. So yes, you don't know me.
and if this is the post you are refering to:
Karissa <http://boards.weddingbee.com/profile/karissa> July 7, 2012
Los Angeles, CA getting married in Colorado Springs, COMy FI's parents
wont be at our wedding (as well as his whole family).. i am a bit
concerned that MY family will make a big deal out of it but I am
chalking it up to being dark! LOL Actually I feel like there will be
enough love in the room to overshadow any other issues (and there are A
LOT). If I were you, I would thank my lucky stars they were not coming!
I would rather people stay home than come and make drama
THAT WAS A RESPONSE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S POST! Sent to FI from his mother.
@You only think you know better:
oh! about the religious comment. I don't understand how that plays into the argument either but I will respond. We are the same religion. I am more religious that I have ever known FI to be. My family is also very religious with the exception of my mother (but shes still a vegan) and my brother (who is anti religion). AND people dont want to read my neg thoughts? Look at your name. I believe it speaks for itself.
@Karissa:To funny....what ever world you want to live in....to bad your FI talked to his brother last night at midnight and told him you were not even engaged, after the text his mom sent to your FI.....to bad he is not even being true to his family and you, because he is telling you and his family two different stories....
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