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Hi everyone, I just need to rant for a minute.
My FMIL, and most of my FI's family, are pretty religious people. Before I even met FI, he and both knew that we were atheists. Neither of us see anything wrong with people following religions of any kind, we just don't believe in God or anything like it. We just want to be good, honest people who are kind to others and live good lives. Neither of us have ever felt bad about this, until now...
We are planning our ceremony, and of course it will be non-religious. We're having a dear dear mutual friend (also an atheist) marry us, and will be having a moment during the ceremony for those with religious beliefs to say a prayer for us, or those without to think good thoughts and send them our way. This is best compromise we could come up with so that our Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Jewish, and whatever else guests feel comfortable. Now here comes the problem.
My FMIL is insisting on calling our wedding a "civil ceremony" just because we aren't having a religious ceremony. She says "Oh, so you won't be married in God's eyes then" and things like that. She's also putting the guilt trip on my poor FI about how is Grandma Octo is going to be so disappointed. This honestly makes me want to cry. I dearly love my FI and he and I are planning on only getting one shot at this wedding thing...I don't want anyone calling it a civil ceremony, it's our WEDDING!!!
Am I doing something wrong here? I just want to marry the love of my life in the way that feels right to us. It just really makes me sad that she isn't seeing our wedding as a wedding, just because it will be secular. I don't want to compromise our (non)beliefs!
Thank you darling bees, I just needed a sec to get that out there. Any recommendations from anyone at all would be very welcome...you gals are rad.
hmm.. this is really hard for me to comment on, because I am religious. BUT, if it were the other way around, and all our families were atheists, and we were Chirstians, then I guess I would say, the best thing you could do is get married the way you want to, and call it what you want to. What the FMIL is simply saying is, that according the bible, the only thing that should technically be called a "marriage" is a union before God, but If thats what you want.. take it.
You aren't doing a thing wrong! And I completely understand where you're coming from, and you're being a lot more forgiving about it than I am. FI and I are both atheists, and our wedding celebration is just that, a celebration, with no ceremony. His family is insanely catholic (his cousin is a priest!), so I'm sure I'll take some flack, but I truly do not care heh. And I've been told the same thing, that our wedding isn't a "true" wedding because it isn't under "god." But you know what? Don't let it get to you! It doesn't bother me a bit- it's insanely RUDE to say something like that, so if they want to be hypocritical jerks about it, so be it! Keep your head high, be sweet, and let them show their ***es ;P
Is she just saying this stuff to you and your Fi, or is she saying this in a gossipy way to everyone? If it's just to you, I would ignore it as much as possible. Let her know that guilt trips do not work on you.
you are not doing anything wrong. lots of people have non religious ceremonies. even people who are not necessarily athiests, just not religious. Nothing wrong with that. If you don't believ in god, then do you really care that you won't be married in his eyes? I bet not. Don't listen to her and don't let her get to you. Have the ceremony that feels right for the two of you. Who cares what grandma thinks. you two will be legally married and that's all that really matters in our society anyways. You can point out to FMIL that in most, (if not all) European countries, religiuos ceremonies are not recognized as valid, binding marriage ceremonies. Everyone has a "civil" ceremony and the religious one is optional and secondary,(and many people don't have them).
I'm so sorry you're dealing with that! I personally am a christian, but I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with having a non-religious ceremony! I actually think it's really awesome and thoughtful of you to include a moment for prayer!
I wouldn't worry too much about what others say. It's your wedding and you'll regret it forever if you choose to do something that doesn't fit you or make you happy. To be honest, I'm sure a lot of people won't notice that it's not a religious ceremony - maybe I'm naive about this, but is there really that big of a difference between a religious ceremony/non-religious other than the lack of prayer and scripture??
You can totally call it a wedding!! Weddings just aren't for religious people. Sure, according to the bible, you can't call something a marriage that isn't a union before God, but if you don't believe that, then who cares what the Bible says?! The Merriam-Webster definition of marriage has nothing to do with religion... you can just follow that definition. :) Weddings don't have to be religious ceremonies to be weddings. I'm an atheist and when I get married, you bet I'm inviting everyone to my WEDDING, not civil ceremony. :)
Technically it is a civil ceremony because that is what they call non-religious ceremonies but it is still a wedding!
I don't know why the term itself bothers you - I understand people looking down on your marriage would bother you but the term is just that a name!
FI and I are also both athiest and our officiant calls our ceremony "civil" because it does not contain any religion. And you are doing more than us by having a "prayer/thoughts" time!
You are doing what feels right to you and that is all that is important! For individuals to tell you that your wedding is "less" because it is not done in god's name is ignorant just as it would be ignorant for atheists to say something negative about a religious ceremony.
Keep planning your wedding your way - it will be perfect - and try not to let the term bother you!
Good Luck!
Don't get caught up in other's opinions or terms. You're doing what you believe? Then that's all that matters.
I just want to add that yes, you are having a civil ceremony, but a civil ceremony is still a wedding, so you can call it that. :)
if you don't like the phrase "civil ceremony" you can call it a secular ceremony, (as opposed to religious). :-)
I don't know if this will help at all, but Quakers do consider themselves to be Christian, but they also believe that God, and only God, can marry a couple in His eyes. They do not believe that the priest's words begin the union -- it is the couple and the congregation as witnesses. However, many other denominations would not agree with this either. There are many ways of thinking about marriage and weddings across the world. But in the US, "wedding" and "marriage" are legal (not necessarily religious) words.
I feel for you, and I think your FMIL doesn't realize how deeply held your beliefs are. Maybe she thinks she will change your mind by saying these things. If she belongs to a denomination that hopes for conversion, then she might even see it as her duty to tell you this.
I hope that even if you and your FMIL have very different beliefs, you will still get married the way you want. An atheist should not have a Christian wedding, just as a Christian should not have a secular wedding.
Many interfaith couples struggle with both sides of the family not seeing it as a "real wedding"! Let her call it what she likes, it lets her stay true to her religion and you to your lack of religion. Your guests will see that it's a wedding!
Well I'll try to give you the perspective she is having, from a bit more of an objective attitude, rather than that of a concerned parent.
It's hard for religious people. Non religious marriages is the heart of a social volcano. Marriage is something that goes right back to the bible. So in her eyes, God created marriage. Therefore if God isn't involved in the ceremony, how can it be a marriage? But you are considering it a marriage in a civil way, (not religious) correct? Also, as a parent, she is concerned for the soul of her son, and probably you too. She bore him and raised him. Her religion probably tells her that those who don't belive in God, will go to hell. You have to understand how difficult and painful that is for a parent to come to grips with, regarding their own child.
Here's the thing. The hurtful things she's saying, are not to aggravate you like an allergy. She is scared. Maybe you can talk to her and ask her why she's saying these things, why she's upset. Then you can tell her that you understand where she's coming from. If you want your ceremony to be civil, explain to her, that you appreciate her concern, but that you feel strongly equally as strong in your beliefs (or lack of beliefs) and will do it the way that you want.
Then I would recommend you try saying this. Tell her if she wishes you to find God, that she use her prayer and faith, to talk to her God. Guilt tripping and snarky comments isn't likely to change you. But if she believes that much in her God, tell her to keep asking him to change your heart. But as she dos this she needs to have patience and faith in her prayers. And if the God she really believes in is out there, her prayers should eventually work in getting him to open your heart, right?
I think if you say something like this, she will realize that acting rudely isn't very Christian. And likely not to have a positive effect on you. She might then realize a proper way to try to channel her desires, and in a way that isn't annyoing to you. And after all, if there is a God, to hear her prayers, and he comes calling, you would want to follow him, right?
Just my opinion. Good luck.
Time out: It's simply -- completely -- untrue, wrong, and factually incorrect for your FMIL or anyone else to claim that "marriage" -- or a "wedding" -- is only a Christian Biblical union before God. Hello??? "Marriage" is a very clear and specific legal structure, codified in US law. You factually, literally, definitely, specifically, will be having a wedding and becoming married. This is true, and codified, in laws worldwide-- not to mention a universal acknowledged, central concept of our entire American culture.. and Western culture... and Eastern culture... and African culture... etc. To say "marriages" and "weddings" are only Christian Biblical unions before God is to deny the marriages of -- oh, gee, the majority of everyone who's ever lived in human history.
I think your FMIL is very much out of bounds. Her remarks are cruel. But I suspect there is probably little chance you will be able to open her heart and change her mind... at least right away. I hope you will be able to focus on those around you who are showing you support and generosity, instead of uncharitable and unkind judgment!
@SleepyLittleSailor Yes, BUT, "marriage" from what I understand is a Christian based thing... I MAY BE WRONG. BUT, from what I understand, it is. (dont be hatin... Im just givin my opinion) Also, I agree with Tanya123, She's probably just concerned, but thats no way for a Christian to act if she's bein mean about it.
I'm a strong Christian, but I think you're being totally reasonable! I don't think there's any better way for you to handle it while still staying true to yourself and your beliefs. I love that you're having a moment for people to send prayers/good thoughts your way - You're definitely still recognizing that many of those people close to you are religious and that you're accepting of it, but don't share the same views.
Wow, you're being a lot nicer than I would. If someone were telling me that my marriage wasn't valid in the eyes of god, I'd rip them a new one, starting with the fact that since I don't believe in god, there's nothing to be invalid!
We didn't have an overtly religious ceremony, either. Whatever, you gotta do what YOU want, not compromise your beliefs to make people happy. You have to live the life you make, not them. She needs to get over the fact that you guys are Atheists--it's your choice, not hers. And if the family doesnj't accept it, they aren't accepting you OR him. Geesh, the nerve of some people.
If it helps, I was told my wedding didn't count b/c it wasn't in a church. Sigh. People are just pretty rooted in what "they" think makes it 'right' and sadly force it on others in a cruel way.
You or your FI will have to tell her to knock it off though. Next thing you know, it'll be your children and God and you aren't raising them right and it'll go on and on. It's simply your decision. Would she be just as disappointed if you were, say, Hindu or something? hmmf
I perform non-religious weddings all the time. And honestly - they are every bit as beautiful, romantic, special, personal, thoughful, and loving as a religious ceremony (and sometimes, based on the religion / church, even more so).
This is a hard situation, because religion is such a personal thing for so many people, but you are right to stick by your beliefs (or lack there of) to have the wedding that you and your fiance WANT to have.
If you are feeling generous, I would maybe reccomend sitting down with your future mother in law to explain WHY you are choosing to have a secular ceremony. You mentioned having family members of various religions offer prayers in your ceremony as well - maybe explain to your future mother in law why you decided to go that route, and help her to understand the basic underlying structure of your wedding ceremony. Oftentimes, fairly religious people may not have a concept of weddings OUTSIDE of the church, and, to her, it may feel like you're going to do some crazy weird wedding, when I am sure your ceremony will be fairly normal, personal, and beautiful.
Best of luck to you, and I hope it goes over well with your future mother in law, eventually.
Try to shrug it off, and don't let anyone turn your wedding day into a political debate. As a person who believes in God, I would definitely appreciate the gesture of a moment for prayer!
I don't see why wedding must equate "ceremony involving religion".
Yours is a wedding, period.
All the best.
I PMed you too :)
Marriage is NOT christian, let alone religion, based. The Atheist (me) perspective: just because it's in an extremely edited work of literature that's the culmination of years or writing doesn't automatically make it one thing or another, and it certainly isn't dictating any rules! Marriage is a union between two people, and that's all! Sleepylittlesailor is right on target! You don't need a "god" or higher power to be unified and call it marriage :P Your FMIL is being overtly catty and rude.
The Miriam Webster definition: the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law. Definition #2 included same sex marriage, by the way :)
Wikipedia:
Marriage is a social union or legal contract between individuals that creates kinship. It is an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually intimate and sexual, are acknowledged by a variety of ways, depending on the culture or demographic. Such a union may also be called matrimony, while the ceremony that marks its beginning is usually called a wedding and the marital structure created is known as wedlock.
People marry for many reasons, most often including one or more of the following: legal, social, emotional, economical, spiritual, and religious. These might include arranged marriages, family obligations, the legal establishment of a nuclear family unit, the legal protection of children and public declaration of love.
Marriage practices are very diverse across cultures, may take many forms, and are often formalized by a ceremony called a wedding. The act of marriage usually creates normative or legal obligations between the individuals involved. In some societies these obligations also extend to certain family members of the married persons. Almost all cultures that recognize marriage also recognize adultery as a violation of the terms of marriage.
External recognition can manifest in a variety of ways. Some examples include the state, a religious authority, or both. It is often viewed as a contract. Civil marriage is the legal concept of marriage as a governmental institution irrespective of religious affiliation, in accordance with marriage laws of the jurisdiction. If recognized by the state, by the religion(s) to which the parties belong or by society in general, the act of marriage changes the personal and social status of the individuals who enter into it.
Although the institution of marriage pre-dates reliable recorded history, many cultures have legends concerning the origins of marriage.
One of the oldest known and recorded marriage laws is discerned from Hammurabi's Code, enacted during the Mesopotamian world (widely considered as the cradle of civilization). The legal institution of marriage and its rules and ramifications have changed over time depending on the culture or demographic of the time.
******
Marriage long pre-dates Christianity and is ascribed similar importance in most religious traditions.
Ohhh, you've hit on a touchy subject! FI and I are just realizing how much this riles everyone up. We were both raised Lutheran, and have both been coming to terms with questioning our faith. I'm not sure how I'd define myself right now, to be honest. It's difficult figuring out that you don't quite agree with something that you spent your whole life being told was The Only Way.
We're compromising on this one - my uncle is a pastor, and we are asking him to do the ceremony on the terms that we have some semblance of control over what is said in the ceremony (we are writing our own vows.) It will not be in a church, and we're having quotes from poems and letters rather than Bible verses. We will be up front with him because we respect his faith. I hope he chooses to respect our views.
By no means does your ceremony have to be religious in order to be a true marriage. To say that is to say the church owns marriage - which is ridiculous in and of itself, especially since there are so many different religions and denominations out there. Just because someone has their own personal faith does not mean that it is the next person's. We live in a country that has freedom of religion. Marriages are recognized by the state - the church cannot control who or how you are married if you are having a non-religious service. I know that FMIL means no harm and is just concerned, but I wish people understood how hurtful that such words can be. They can be hard to shake off.
" "Marriage" from what I understand is a Christian based thing... "
Sorry, that's just incorrect. I'm totally not hating. I'm just stating a fact.
"Marriage" has a very real and very concrete meaning in our country's laws. And in laws around the world. In Israeli law, and Indian law, and Iranian law... etc.
Does "marriage" also have spiritual meaning in various religions -- in addition to its legal and cutlural and factual meaning? Of course! Marriage has deep spriritual meaning in Jewish culture, in Hindu culture, in Muslim culture, and in Christian culture.
@sleepylittlesailor well written, well thought out and completely right on!
We are not religious either and God will have no part in our ceremony. It is downright offensive to imply that because two people aren't Christian that their marriage isn't real! Offensive & obsurd! Your wedding is about a promise you are making to your love - do not let your FMIL compromise your vow to eachother by trying to muck it up with something you don't believe in.
One of my favorite parts of my non-religious ceremony is the closing statement made by our oficiator and I think it sums things up well.
We recognize with full awareness that only a couple can administer the sacrament of marriage to each other, and only a couple can sanctify it. Neither my church, nor any power vested in me by the State, can grant me the authority to declare what only two hearts can declare, and what only two souls can make real.
@elizabeth - that is absolutely beautiful, and sums it up perfectly.
Wow elizabeth, that is great! Your officiant has picked such lovely words!
My husband and I had a civil ceremony at our wedding and are proud of it. We wrote most of it ourselves, with a bit of input from the judge who officiated, and tailored it to us, our lives together, and the promises we wanted to make to each other. I can't really improve on the things that sleepylittlesailor, Mrs. DG, and elizabeth have said...so I'll just say that I completely agree with them!
As a side note, a lot of our religious friends and family came up to us afterward to say how beautiful they thought the ceremony was...so even though it didn't conform to their personal beliefs, they were still able to appreciate it. If you put lots of thought and love into your ceremony, I'll bet you will get the same reaction from most of your guests.
@LittleOctopus - we are going through a lot of the same issues. We are both atheists but his family is religious. We're not getting so much dissent as we are confusion and weird, random comments.
(And by the way, having the "I don't believe in god" conversation with my FMIL was one of the most awkward moments of my life.) Ha!
Don't let anyone make you second guess your decisions. You're following your beliefs (er, lack thereof) just like any Christian would. If you gave into their wishes, only then would your wedding be less special, because it's caving to beliefs you don't have.
Keep your chin up; you'll be happy you did! :)
I think it's a wedding! 100 percent! I'm Christian too also btw!
What I'd do is like you said, offer a moment of silence and/or prayer for blessings for your marriage during the ceremony during what in our Christian ceremony might be the spot where we bless the rings or at the end of the ceremony before you two kiss.
That would possibly heal this seeming great divide imho! I think placing a bit of emphasis on that segment of the ceremony might be very good!
My grandparents had a civil ceremony at a courthouse 70 years ago. SEVENTY years. To say they weren't married really or didn't have a marriage would be very strange. They're more married than anybody I have ever known!
Wishing you love during this issue and here's to hoping it's solved!
I am religious but this isn't hard for me to comment on at all.
The origin of 'marriage' and a 'wedding' came along before Christianity - for her to claim it wouldn't be a marriage without a religious ceremony is a little strange to me - but just jumps on the same nerve that folks against gay marriage jump on.
In some cultures in history, marriage didn't require government or religious approval at all - it was simply an agreement between two parties.
(I say simply with a bit of tongue in cheek - no matter what anyone says, I can't imagine the concept was ever SIMPLE.)
Best of luck to you.
Stick to your guns.
History's on your side in this one.
I am somewhat religious but FI is an anthiest. So we are having a ceremony that is going to be pretty secular. So far no one has even mentioned it- maybe they are biting their tongues? Let your FI handle your FMIL.
Hey ladies,
I can't thank you all enough. Not only have you put my mind at ease that we're doing the best we can, but you gave me a little boost to stick to my guns! My FI and I will be having the ceremony that means something to us, and that's what truly matters.
@elizabeth, we might be stealing that.
Thank you again, bees! I appreciate each and every single one of your comments, whether they agreed with my beliefs or not. It's really refreshing to get a different perspective, so thanks for providing that. Big hugs and big love to you all, and we'll keep you updated on how this goes. Don't know what I'd do without you awesome ladies!
You are definitely not doing anything wrong. It's your wedding and if you and your fiance are not religious, then having a religious wedding ceremony would make you uncomfortable. Do the ceremony the way you want it and you'll be happy :)
I'm in a similar situation in that my family is extremely religious (Catholics) and at first it was a bit hard for them to understand that fiance and I won't have any mention of religion (no God, no Jesus, no Mary, no nothing) in our civil wedding ceremony, but they accepted it and now embrace it. Fiance's parents aren't religious so there were never any issues there. The only one person who kept having issues was one of my aunts who is the most religious person in my family, who called me on the phone to let me know that she wouldn't be comfortable attending our wedding because "it's going to be a sham of a marriage" (yes, she did say that). I dealt with that by simply letting her know that I'll make the decision easy for her and not invite her. Quick though not quite painless, but helps avoid drama farther down the line.
You ladies have done your homework! Marriage is not synonymous with Religious. Unfortunately, you're never gonna win an argument trying to change someones closed mind, so try--and i know it's much easier said than done--but to not let it get you or your fiance down. YOU know it's a wedding, marriage, and a lifetime commitment that you're making to one another, who is your family to say that someone/thing else has to weigh in on it for it to be valid??
Wow, what a great thread. I am going threw some of the same issues as we are not having any mention of god at our ceremony either. We are both atheist and feel like it would be fake of use to include something like god in our ceremony just to appease the majority. FI's grandpa actually told him he is sad because he won't get to see him in heaven when he dies! Anyways I really love what @elizabeth and @sleepylittlesailor had to say on the subject. thanks
You should tell her your marriage license is being issued by the state of North Carolina, not God, thank you very much. LOL, I know you can't say that to her, but it would make me feel better thinking about saying that to her!!! 
I HATE when people try to force their religious opinions on others.
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