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I haven't seen that before. But I would ask him what it means.
You haven't signed the contract right? Is he the person that you want to use for your wedding? If not then I would keep looking-don't feel forced to go with him.
It's a bit strange and you have to consider its an unfair clause in the sense that he has the ability to withdraw and excused from performance however you are not for the same reason. I would have scratch that or at least reword it so that i pertains to all parties and all parties can be excused on such grounds, specifically you. we made sure all our excuse for performance paragraphs had corresponding paragraphs wherein we can be excused for the same reason - if not its a unilateral contract, which doesnt work well too often :) GL!
I don't like the idea that HE can withdrawal AND keep your money/deposits. I know some things like times/facilities, etc were finalized like a week before my wedding.
If it seems a little weird, ask for clarification and/or removal of that part of the contract, or simply tell him you aren't comfortable with the fact that he could use that statement (which is quite vague by the way) to withdrawal, leave you high and dry, and without a deposit.
If not, I say move on to a photographer without a sketchy clause. I can see that he probably got screwed in the past and that's why it's there, but I also see how it could be used to take advantage of a person, which is an unfair contract in my book.
I get the late payments, etc part, but changing of locations?! What if you notify him? i think it's just so vague
It sounds like something bad, bad, bad happened to this photographer at a wedding and he's trying to protect himself. I'd say the best approach it to be really nice and understanding. Can you imagine if you haven't been told of a change in venue, miss the wedding, and then the bride demands the deposit back? That sounds like hellish job conditions. If you explain your perspective and nervousness *after* listening to and acknowledging his, you'll probably be able to work out an agreement.
I agree with ejs4y8. That is way to vague, I wouldn't be comfortable with that either, but talk to him about it, he may be willing to make it more specific. They're probably just leaving it open because its hard to think of every way in which something bad could happen.
It is a bit unusual, but I don't think it is anything to worry about. It is basically just saying that if you break the contract then they have a right to also break the contract and keep the deposit. Even without that language in there, that's how it would normally work anyway with any standard contract.
The vagueness of this contract is what concerns me the most. "Changes of times available." "Missed appointments." "ETC." It seems like he has enough terminology in his contract that he could withdrawal at any point for any reason & not return your deposit. And technically he has the contract to back him up. He could say that you missed an appointment (even if it was a misunderstanding) & then just back out. Or if the week before the wedding, you decide you want him to come an hour earlier, he can technically back out. He could be a solid guy and might not do that, but I would be worried that he states in his contact that he can.
We have something similar in our contract. Basically, it means if you're lying about having us actually shoot a wedding (and we show up and it's like...a porn shoot or something) we can back out. Or if you decide that you no longer want a local wedding, and are going to get married in Mexico instead, we aren't on the hook for travel. Same thing if you change your wedding date (especially if we aren't available), or have your wedding at 2AM in the morning instead of the afternoon as planned.
It also protects us if the relationship goes sour before the wedding, like if a client violates copyright on engagement/bridal photos, stuff like that. Another thing it does is protect us from deadbeats who don't pay, so if you're late (or just don't pay) on every payment, we don't have to work for free.
We have had situations in which we COULD have exercised this right, but I think it would have to be a very extreme situation for us to actually do it. I am sure most other photographers feel the same way-it would take a lot for us to back out of doing a wedding. Our contract is incredibly overbearing, and the chances of us actually using clauses like this are slim to none, but it's there to protect our livelihood just in case we need it.
I highly recommend that you discuss this with your photographer-they can better explain why they have this clause, and may be able to make changes for you if you're concerned.
Not exactly applicable in this situation, but one of the times we could have (but chose not to) use this clause was when a client hired us for a "cocktail party" that turned out to be a wedding reception. Yikes!
It sounds weird and vague, but I think as others have commented it is just a clause to protect the photographer. The phrase "intending to circumvent its policies" seems key. I've known photogs who've been burned by people scanning photos to print themselves, etc, and I would guess that's what it's meant to prevent.
Talk to your photographer about the language and what it means for reassurance, but I don't think you need to switch.
Good luck!
I know some photographers have those clauses to protect them against bad experiences they've had before - i.e. bridezilla-like behavior, or failure to pay, or non-cooperation. You should talk with your photographer and understand what they mean, it doesn't sound like they would likely do that to you if you have a great working relationship.
I wouldn't be too alarmed, but I would talk with him about it before signing.
Good luck!
Personally, I would meet with a few other photographers before signing that. What happens if he decides at the last minute to back out for one of the dumb reasons in that paragraph and you can't get another photographer in time? Plus, you lose all the money you paid him.
I met with quite a few photographers and NONE of the contracts had anything like that. If the photographer decides to back out after signing the contract, you should get your deposit back.
That's a pretty strange clause to have in a contract, but the best thing you can do is ask him to clarify it! For our vendors, we went through every single 'eh' point, and had them clarify it IN WRITING on the contract. Don't be afraid to propose contract edits!
DO NOT SIGN A CONTRACT WITH A CLAUSE THAT YOU ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH. Even if you talk to him and he says, "oh, I'll only withdraw if.." DON'T SIGN IT. Tell him you won't sign unless he deletes or clarifies the clause. While modifications to the written contract might hold, it's a lot harder to prove you've both agreed to it if the signed contract says something else.
@marigold- agreed eleventy-five hundred percent.
written words > verbal agreement
If something makes your uncomfortable, you can always ask for more explanation and discuss the possibility of removing it.
I can give you a recent example . I usually do a $500 deposit and the balance is due on the wedding day. A bride asked if she could do half the balance on the day of and half when she looks at her CD and it was fine. She told me that she recently had a contractor work on her home that was paid and didn't finish so she was really scared to pay in advance. I understand and worked with her !
Amanda
Ours has something similiar in it but they also say I have the right to revoke services based on these things too. Ours also said that they will be the only photographer allowed to shoot the wedding. This is because they have had non-professional photographers get in their way and be distracting during the ceremony.
The first sentence tells you in what cases it would justify a studio backing out of contract with your money. IF it discovers that you are INTENDING to circumvent, or get around, its aforementioned policies, then they have no obligations to you anymore. So as long as you're on the up and up with them, you're cool. The language does not imply they can do whatever whenever they want with your money. Basically, if you INTENTIONALLY tried to rip them off or misrepresent yourself or your event to them, they have the right to cut and run as far away from you as possible.
This isn't photography related at all, but it might help give some clarity:
I work for a company that provides monthly, contracted services to clients. We do have a clause in our contracts that say we can 1. drop them as a client at any time with 30 days written notice to them, 2. raise fees at our discretion.
In all honesty, we've NEVER raised fees, and we've only 'fired' a small handful of clients. Since these are 3, 6 or even 12 month contracts, we need this to protect ourselves. Some clients don't fit our service well and they'll leave at the end of a term, but some clients are just plain out bat-sh*t crazy. When they're like that, we will consider terminating.
It sounds like he's had the same problem and is trying to protect himself. Think about him having the biggest Bridezilla ever for a client - she could be demanding of his time, rude, etc. If her wedding was a few weeks after yours, and she was constantly hounding him on things, it might take away his focus from your day and getting your photos back to you in a timely manner. He'd end up losing more business from this one bride in the long run.
I think it's fine to politely ask about the clause and his reasoning behind it. If he doesn't have any bad reviews, it doesn't sound like he's out to take your money and run.
Good luck!
if you don't feel comfortable with it, and I wouldn't if I were you, then I think you should have a conversation with him about why he put that language in the contract, and then after that is clarified, you could edit it together to something you are comfortable with. that way, if you miss an appt for an emerceny, or times get changed that the last minute, you know you won't have to deal with him dropping out and keeping the deposit. GL!
It sounds very complex, but it's actually very simple. Your photog is afraid that you are trying to take advantage of him, and he's protecting himself.
I would reword that paragraph to protect YOU and then ADD it to the contract. Basically if he misses appointments, or whatever, then you have the right to a FULL refund of ALL monies paid. It's quid pro quo, tit for tat. If he can have a clause to protect himself, he shouldn't have a problem adding a clause to protect you.
I understand that the photographer might just be trying to protect himself but the language just seems a little to extreme to me. As a photographer my aim is to build a relationship and a friendship with my bride. A contract with that sort of language and implication is just a negative way to start that relationship. I am not saying a photographer shouldn't protect him or herself against someone trying to take advantage but the language in which it is presented should not have such a harsh and negative connotation. Shop around, get contracts from other photographers. Why have you chosen to go with that photographer over any others may I ask?
Yeah, it's a little heavy handed. I have something like this in my contract, but it basically says if the client does anything like what is described above I can pull out, but WITH A REFUND of the deposit.
Looking at some of the other photogs comments though, and some of the things people could do, I think there are certain circumstances where I wouldn't feel like I should have to refund with the pull out, but I guess until I get messed over, it is what it is. I can definitely also see why you would be uncomfortable with this, it's pretty one-sided.
This clause is extreme.... Yet it's in many photography contracts.
Don't sign it if it the photographer gives you a lame reason for including the language, but I wouldn't worry too much - it's a standard inclusion among creative professionals.
If it's really uncomfortable for you, let him know. I bet he will change it before losing you as a client.
Let us know what you do!
-Christopher Schall
Photographer
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Hi there -
I'm not sure if this is right or weird or not, but we recently met with a photographer that we like, and he sent us a contract to look over.
In the contract, there's an entire paragraph about the photographer's right to withdraw from the agreement. Here's the language:
"The studio's discovery of new information, changes or other factors intending to circumvent its policies could result in its withdrawal. Non-cooperation, changes of locations, facilities or times available, missed appointments, bad or returned checks or late payments are examples of contributing factors. Should the studio initiate the withdrawal, fees and deposits will not be returned..."
This makes me nervous - there are no complaints against this photographer in the BBB, but I don't know him from Adam, and I think this "right to withdraw thing is really strange... it's completely at his discretion... is this normal wedding photog contract language?