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Okay, me and HeFlutter got into it again last night. Uuuuuuuuugly. Bawling, flailing, crying until midnight, swollen eyes this morning…(at least they’re minty fresh!) I have a question for the guys. What is your complete and absolute fascination with the proposal being a “surprise”? He wants it to be when I “absolutely least expect it”, even if that means waking me up at 2:30 in the morning on an arbitrary Tuesday. I tried to best explain to him (between wracking sobs) that we’re *always* expecting it. Until the time when lobotomies are common practice, if we know that our SO is going to propose, every little thing that happens has hidden meaning. He’s working late? He’s ring shopping. Suggested a vacation? He’s going to pop the question. He decided to eat Cheerios instead of Frosted Flakes this morning? It’s because he has a ring in his pocket and the Cheerios are round…
Do men enjoy the mind game? Do they enjoy knowing that as women, we can’t handle the emotional ups and downs? Is it such a control issue? I understand that you want it to be a surprise, but at the expense of our sanity? C’mon, men, clue me in, because obviously, I’m totally clueless…
I don't think it's so much a mind game--I think men in general love surprising women with gifts and a surprise proposal is the "ultimate" to them. Just giving it to you isn't ideal in their heads.
Or maybe he doesn't want to propose to you until the bawling/flailing/ugliness of the situation calms down. Do you really want him to throw a ring at you and say "ok let's get engaged, you got your way". ThAT would be controlling. My advice is to take a step back for a little bit and realize you're getting really wrapped up into it. He's going to propose, right? It's just a matter of when. You don't want to look down at that ring on your finger and feel guilty that you "stole" the engagement from him. I've seen a bunch of people go through that, and I'm sure it's a miserable feeling.
It seems we can't win. Women expect these amazing proposals yet at the same time, they just want the guy to do it. What's more important to you? The ring/proposal or the promise? I'm sure you would be upset if he just handed you the ring box and said, "Okay, I love you. Let's get married."
We are only trying to surprise you because 1. It's nice. It's nice to know that we can do something to surprise you. It gets a little old when we constantly have to listen to you talk about your ring, when it's going to happen, how it should happen, ect. 2. Some of us feel pressured to come up with this amazing proposal. What girl wants to go back to her mother and say, "He just gave it to me while we were in the car."?
Don't ruin your relationship waiting for a ring. The ring is a bonus. Have you spoken about marriage? If he's serious, then leave him alone about it. We, at least not I, don't need to talk issues to death. If I say I'm going to marry you, then I'm going to. If I have a plan, just trust me.
I know some bees are going to attack, but that's how I feel.
Wasn't that a movie on SyFy - "When Bees Attack"? 
For me, it's about the promise. And we had that discussion last night. We came to the conclusion that men and women are different. Period. (SHOCKER!) I guess I just don't get the emphasis on why it has to be a complete and total "surprise". Yes, he's said we're getting married. Yes, he wants to work on the proposal all by his lonesome. But what constitutes a "perfect" moment for a man? That's part of the question. What makes this moment different from any other moment?
I was told last night that I "ruined" a proposal on Christmas, Valentine's Day, My Birthday, McDonalds, and Gatlinburg. None of those can be done now because I mentioned them. (I never mentioned McDonalds, but hey, wheaver...) Was that harsh for him to say, or do I need to just pull up my big girl panties?
@Mr.Tatoo- I didn't expect an "amazing proposal." In fact, it would have felt inauthentic to me.
It sounds like there is some sort of disconnect in the way the two of you view the role that the proposal should have in the engagement.
In most cases, I don't think it is mind games. If you think your SO is playing mind games with you, that is problematic. If you are uncomfortable with a big, grand scheme, you should try to talk to your SO about that.
@EleanorRigby: I agree. But we (as in "he and I") can only agree to disagree in this instance. I tried to explain to him the importance of the commitment aspect of the engagement, but he's stuck on this idea that the proposal is the man's "one time to shine".
He insists that he's committed, and that the commitment level won't change with a ring - he is as committed to me now as he will be after we get married. Mr. T - is that a common thought among men, or has mine just cracked his crock?
I think men want their proposal to be a surprise because that is the way they have always imagined it being. These things are important to men the same way walking down the aisle on their father's arm is important to most brides.
That said, I understand your frustration. A while back I really felt like my boyfriend had my whole life on hold. It's frustrating feeling like you have no control over something as important as when you get engaged or married. Everything else in your relationship, you decide together and move forward together. The proposal though? Traditionally all up to the guy. It is a bit aggravating.
I feel like at least having some sort of timeline is important. My boyfriend and I decided mutually a while ago that we want to get married in winter 2012. After we decided that together, it was much easier for me since I knew we were on the same page. I know that he is working towards getting married in 2012, so I know he will propose. Now I just get to sit back and anticipate!
Have you set out a timeline with your SO? If so, I would just try and relax. Try and get your mind off it and before you know it... it will be happening!
As big as the moment of "getting engaged" is for a women, it is the same for the man.
They want it to be a surprise b/c they are tyring to make it a memorable moment. Why do we wrap christmas presents? B/c we love the anticipation of a loved one finally having that special and memorable moment.
And lets face it, most women do majority of the wedding planning, and the engagement is all about the man's plans. We should let him have that 
Well, I think you just have to be patient then. He wants to marry you, and plans on proposing soon. I know it is hard, but I think you just have to trust that.
The one thing I will say is that I would have been really embarassed and upset if FI proposed to me in public. My FI knows this about my personality, so it didn't even have to be discussed. I'm not clear from your post, but if you are more of a private person (like me) and your SO is intentionally disregarding that, I think that is a bit insensitive and you should talk to him about it.
The ring is for the woman. Women...not all of them...place emotional feelings into objects. Women say all the time how its not real without a ring.. Nothing changes when you get the ring. My feelings haven't changed. I don't consider engagement as a level. Its the time that you are planning a wedding. I am just as committed as I was before the ring. I told her that I was going to marry her and that was my promise. Of course we are made to feel that we have to get a ring for it. Women go to town on others who are engaged without a ring. This is one thing we get to have control on. I am not saying it shouldn't be discussed but the proposal part should be for the man. We have to listen to you guys gush about this proposal and that one. Do you know how many times I had to watch that iPhone proposal? how can you competet with a guy who wrote a song!
@Mr. Tattoo: I don't consider engagement as a level. Its the time that you are planning a wedding. I am just as committed as I was before the ring.
That's pretty much what HeFlutter said. As a woman, that is something that is hard for us to compute and harder to comprehend, and near impossible to deal with. Engagment isn't about planning a party. It's about making a statement - it's about sharing your intentions with the rest of the world and saying, "I'm committed, this is where we're headed."
There's suprise and then there's SURPRISE. If I'm going somewhere unsual on my birthday, being driven by my SO who never drives, I'm going to know soething is up. Now, if he were to, several months before said birthday start driving instead of me on a more regualr basis, and we started going new places, then I might actually be surprised that special day.
By the point that the man has pretty much told the woman that an engagement is coming, and even agreed on a timeframe for a wedding, it's boggling to the woman to be then told to be a good girl and sit back and wait. Its like, "Hey, I know you're hungry, and I have a cheeseburger for you, but I'll give it to you when you're not expecting it." Huh?
If I'm hungry, and know you've got a cheeseburger for me, then delaying the giving of said burger is almost torture an makes everything feel like a test of worthiness. It's like dangling somethign above a kid just out of reach - they know you have it, you tease them about having it, but refuse to give it to them. The man thinks he's doing something sweet and memorable, but after the anticipation of the woman (which sometimes can't always be controlled) reaches a point like a teakettle hitting boil, the "fun" anticipation gives way to anxiety, self-doubt, worries, and wondering WHY, if he loves, wants to marry by such and such upcoming date, hasn't he done it?
That said, Flutter, I think you've still got two major holidays to go, and your man might still be planning something for them - surely you can manage to hold out for 8 or 9 more days and try to wait and see - or if you're able, give him till Valentine's and then give him a calendar with the date you're not expecting anything marked :P
I know you're venting here, partly to allow you to wait better whn interacting with your SO. Instead of crying and trying to plead with him, look up som basic things in a matter of fact way, like how far in advance cetain things need to be booked, like you venue and hotels and so forth. It can take 6 months alone to purchase and have a dress altered, and since summer is a big time for weddings, it's best to do this as soon as you can. He simply might not be aware of the multitude of details and requirements for planning any wedding, and how long thigs will take. My SO is a notorious procrastinaotor, waiting for the night before a trip to get thigns he needs, waitintg for a day before my birthday to worry about gifts - I'm convinced he's going to wait until I'm on my deathbed to ever proposed, simply because I can't think of any other "last minute" scenarios. So, I think many men think you can plan a wedding in a month to 3 months, but unless your destination is Vegas, I'm not sure that will work for what you want. Heck, church-based pre-marraige counseling (where you don't say "I do" until they say you can) alone can take several months in some places.
Well, things do change when you get the ring though (Or become "officially" engaged, even without a ring). My boyfriend and I are "engaged" pretty much (We've decided we're going to get married) The COMMITMENT does not change because we have already made that commitment to each other. However, my boyfriend does not actually consider us "engaged" until he proposes (that shows that he thinks of it as being a separate level as well). Some things will change once he actually decides we're engaged.
I will actually openly start telling people I am engaged. I can start celebrating it with family and friends. People will take us more seriously as a couple. A "girlfriend" is someone you could have been dating for only 2 months. A "fiance" is someone you are going to get married to. (I do not mean to stress the importance of the title "fiance", I mean more the fact that people will take your relationship more seriously if you are engaged than if you are just dating.) My boyfriend will let me really start planning (calling the venue we're interested in, going dress shopping, ectect).
Most importantly, I will be able to wear the commitment between my SO and I on my sleeve, which I think is important to a lot of women. Women want you to tell the world that you are devoted to them. That is what getting engaged and married really means to women. To women, that just seems like a more solid commitment if you're willing to let her take your last name.
It does kind of suck that I do not get to decide when I can act openly engaged and do all these things, he gets to decide. If I had it my way I would be telling people I am engaged already (because I mean, really, I am.) but it is important to my SO that he propose to me "properly" first. Can you at least understand how that might be just a tad frustrating?
We just think differently. I don't know why women feel like we should think the same. your posts says to me you want the ring to show it off and have the spotlight on you. as soon as you said its about making a statement...thats a woman thing. None of my guy friends gushed over her ring. They said it was nice. I asked my best friend to be my best man over xbox. No cute cards or videos about it. Women like to make a show of things. Nothing wrong with it. Its all pretty in the wnd...but to us its just showing off and I'd rather get married tonight than have to watch her stress out over seating arragements for a year. Just be patient. It sounds like he has a plan. nothing will stop a man from proposing once he is 100% sure this is what he wants.
This whole conversation is why I don't want to know "when" - or when he's got the ring. I know I'm completely in the minority here, but I want a surprise. I mean a total and complete surprise. I feel like although I'm obviously "waiting" and "wishing" or I wouldn't be on these boards, it would be even worse if I knew he had the ring, knew that he promised to do it by X, and I was just waiting and waiting. Isn't that anticlimatic? Just my opinion.
My SO knows I want to get married one day. I did ONE TIME give a timeline. (it's not up until next summer). But I said it once and that's it. He is in the camp of "I have to do this when I'm ready, not be pushed into it."
I feel kind of alone on the boards here because of my opinion on this, but it's just the way I've always envisioned it. An out of the blue surprise.
Anyone else feel that way?? I know it's a big decision and you should be able to talk about anything, and communication is the key. I just want the whole fairy tale. White horses and surprises.
Your cheeseburger analogy cracked me UP! First I’ve laughed like that in DAYS. And it’s not like I intentionally cry – I’m not one to use the “Tear Card” for anything. It happens naturally. I can’t control it. We talk, I cry. It’s just how I am – like a leaky faucet…
I think it's different for different people. I know my husband thought of what I would like for a proposal, and I wanted a surprise. I think I like the tradition of it. Other people go and pick out a ring together and that's it.
@Mr. Tattoo: I think a lot of people, probably myself included, see the ring as the man putting your actions where your mouth is, especially in this day and age wherea lot of people claim only lip service to the ideal of marriage. How many women have had a guy say, "sure I'll marry you, baby," only to never, ever have any follow through? Meanwhile, if a guy takes the time to look for and find a ring which is an accepted symbol of his intent to marry her, he's following the steps in the dance our culture understands and expects.
A promise is the important thing, but symbols and ceremony are part of being a human being. Why do I have a certificate on my wall to show I have a degree? Why did I wear a funny flat hat and walk across a stage to get that certificate? Because it's something anyone can look at an see that I worked towards something, without me having to sit there and talk endlessly about what classes I took, how many hours I'd work outside of school and so forth to get them to respect that I took that effort.
Not to hijack Flutter's post, but one of my main probalmes with not being married or even engaged is that people DO judge you and our SO based on how long you've been together, whether you're married and whether you have or plan to have kids. Even with all we've been trhough and the fact we've been together going on 15 years, we get far less respect from people than our friends who are getting married this June after 9 months of dating. It's just a fact that symbol and ceremony mean a lot in our culture, and an egnagement ring followed by a wedding ring are two of the most powerful symbols you will find in Western culture. Now the 2 mos. salary is just a clever marketing scheme these days, but way back when, when ladies did not support themselves it was a way to show her family that you weren't a deadbeat who couldn't support their daughter.
I have no idea- I questioned this myself... my SO wants to do some big ole surprise when the time comes... and all I want is to be engaged already so I can actually pick up magazines and start planning (I am not a pre-planner). I honestly could care less about the surprise- I care more about the time and the fact that he FINALLY did it.
OMG, EXACTLY!------>If I'm going somewhere unsual on my birthday, being driven by my SO who never drives, I'm going to know soething is up. Now, if he were to, several months before said birthday start driving instead of me on a more regualr basis, and we started going new places, then I might actually be surprised that special day.
I was thinking about this, this morning and I wanted to tell my SO this, but I'm not trying to get started on the engagement, but a surprise proposal would be us watching tv like we usually do or eating dinner at home because, I'm not thinking about that at the time. I'm thinking about that joke or if he likes the veggies.LOL
But I'm gonna listen to Mr.Tattoo. My SO says all the time that he has a plan and that I need to trust him to do it, so I will. Doesn't mean I won't wonder in the meantime.lol
@Isilme: I think a lot of people, probably myself included, see the ring as the man putting your actions where your mouth is
Exactly. I think you summed everything up perfectly in your post.
I don't see the OP's post as wanting the spotlight on her and wanting to show off a ring. It sounds like she just wants to be engaged to the man she loves. The engagement ring is just a physical symbol of the intent to marry. As isilme pointed out, society tends to like symbols, but you don't need a ring to be engaged.
yeah but the symbol comes with requuirements. If its just a symbol then why is there a demand for certain stones, settings,size, color,ect. I love it when some women say they would be happy with a twisty tie...but how true is that? I don't understand how spending thousands on a symbol shows a woman how much he loves you. If a guy says lets get married, then set a date and do it. OP you have several options heee. You can continue to fight about it and get a shut up ring. You can trust him and let him do his thing. You could give yourself a timeline but be prepared to follow through with it. You could propose to him.
It's not about the ring, it's about being "official". Like I said above, I'd be perfectly happy to tell people I am engaged now, without a ring, but my SO will not let me until he gets me this ring and proposes.
@Mr. Tattoo: Funny...he joked about that during one of our "discussions". "Why don't you just buy me a ring and propose to me!?" He sees it in terms of his power being "usurped". Do I give a rat's ass about size, color, clarity, cut, etc etc etc? NO. I don't want him to go into debt to get me a blasted ring. I'm all about finding the best deal. Don't spend thousands and thousands of dollars on a ring. Give me something quirky - something that epitomizes our relationship. Something that - like another poster here said - shows you're thinking about it and it's in the forefront of your mind - not just hanging out back there with thoughts of, "Today, I have to mow the lawn, take out the garbage, and if I get around to it, pick out a ring and propose..."
I think, if every time you guys talk about this, you end up crying and super upset, you're not going to be very happy when you are engaged....or YOU will be, but at the expense of your FI, you know? You'll always question why he finally proposed....did he feel guilted into it? Hurting you is taking the fun out of it for him.....and if you aren't going to propose to him, the ball is in his court and you have to accept that.
@ejs4y8: I cry at the drop of a hat...Hallmark commercials...stories on the news...running out of toilet paper...(okay, so maybe not so much there). Not crying is not an option for me - it just happens.
@Isilme:That said, Flutter, I think you've still got two major holidays to go, and your man might still be planning something for them - surely you can manage to hold out for 8 or 9 more days and try to wait and see - or if you're able, give him till Valentine's and then give him a calendar with the date you're not expecting anything marked :P
If we go through all of this and it turns out to have been nothing more than a clever ruse to throw me off the scent, I hope he'll appreciate being called an @$$hole on Christmas...
@Mr. Tattoo: My requirement is that it's pretty, kinda cheap and fits my finger. Oh yeah, and it comes with him asking me to marry him. :P
Do I prefer "white/silver" colored metal to Mr. T-style bling gold. yes. Does that mena I want a cetain grade of platinum/unobtainium? No. I'd be fine with an aquamarine solitaire in sterling silver, which frankly costs about as much as our X-box. Would I like to know that my BF values me and our relationship at least as much as his Xbox. Yes. I've even found such rings well within our budget, but don't know how to show my BF, since he wants to choose all on his own, but his brother (I think) got ripped off for $4K by Kay jewelwer when he went to get his now fiancee her ring.
@Isilme: Oh yeah, and it comes with him asking me to marry him. :P
Here here!
We decided to get married, so we bought a ring together and went to dinner and decided we were officially engaged. I was ready a little before he was, but then once we were both ready we just did it together. Honestly I don't understand the whole surprise proposal thing or making your partner wait if you're both ready. Its a mutual decision to get married. The ring and the proposal are steps on the way to getting married, not the end all and be all. If its causing you both this much anguish, you need to talk and figure out a compromise.
@Isilme: YOU GO GIRL.... Enough said....This is perfect and I LOVE this analogy....
"A promise is the important thing, but symbols and ceremony are part of being a human being. Why do I have a certificate on my wall to show I have a degree? Why did I wear a funny flat hat and walk across a stage to get that certificate? Because it's something anyone can look at an see that I worked towards something, without me having to sit there and talk endlessly about what classes I took, how many hours I'd work outside of school and so forth to get them to respect that I took that effort."
AMEN
I'm glad people like analogies instead of getting frustrated by them. I don't know how else to explain things.
@Isilme: I'm glad people like analogies instead of getting frustrated by them. I don't know how else to explain things.
If I didn't want to blow my cover, I'd send SO the thread and let him read some of what you wrote...he works in analogies too!
Good lord. Im going to pose the question from the opposing side. You say "I tried to best explain to him (between wracking sobs) that we’re *always* expecting it."
WHY are you so desperate to get engaged? I'm not trying to sound snarky I just truly don't understand it. You are in love and you are living with the person you love, knowing that when the time is right you will get engaged and plan a wedding (which is a lot of work i might add lol- enjoy the waiting period!) It just seems really sad to me that instead of living your life happily in the moment, you are obsessing daily over something that will inevitably happen. And it sort of makes the whole thing turn from positive to negative.
As for the surprise element- I think someone else already said it- but it is just another tradition. Just like getting engaged in the first place, just like getting married, bachelor parties, bridal showers, white dresses, etc. Women have their traditions that they have looked forward to for years, and for the guys the proposal is their biggest part in the whole process. They only get to do it once and they want it to be perfect. I think its really cute and sweet.
@smallwonder
I'm with you on that. I think we see so much angst and frustration surrounding proposals/engagements b/c there are so many mixed messgaes.
On the one hand, couples are supposed to be equals and make decisions together. Couples live together, openly discuss marriage and their expectations, etc. On the other hand, a lot of people still like the man to officially "propose" and for the woman to be "surprised." It's a function of gender roles that is now slightly outdated... I think there is a lot of room for both men and women to get confused about where they "fit" in this scheme. If the couple isn't on the same page, it gets problematic.
@flyinpig3: I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but this I will. ^_^
It's true. Guys do actually think about the proposal. Mr. always wanted to propose to his intended in Ireland where his family is from. Since that was not possible without having me wait another year, he thought of other things that were important to him.
He proposed on Mt. Washington because when he first came to visit Pittsburgh, he always pointed up to the lookouts and wondered what they were. I remember when we went up there, he just looked out over the city with such awe. You can see everything from up there. (Lion King moment anyone!?) He decided right then and there that he was going to propose on Mt. Washington.
How upset would he have been if I kept asking for it and telling him it should be a certain way? If you don't want to stick with tradtion then fine. Talk about it and tell him you don't want a proposal. You just want the status and ring. Maybe it will take pressure off of him.
I totally agree! The gender roles are confusing! That's why we sort of skipped the whole thing, because we both felt too much pressure and didn't like that it was turning into a sad/frustrating thing instead of a happy/fun thing. I sympathize with couples who want to do it the traditional way because it's very hard. To me, it felt outdated and didn't fit with our relationship or the way we do things, so we skipped it. I understand why some people would want to do it the way they've seen in movies though.
@Mr. Tattoo: I don't care about the ring at all. I haven't told him what I like, I haven't sent pictures, I haven't told relatives to tell him what I like. He can pick anything he wants. I told him if he wanted he could propose with no ring at all and we could just get wedding rings.
And I mean all of that. It's been more than 6 years and what I want from him is the promise that we'll be a family together and if he's not ready to do that and doesn't know when that will be, then just to tell me so I can move on and find someone who will.
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