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That's a BIG no-no. I'm not a professional photographer, but my best friend is. She would be so upset - and maybe sue? You have to buy the rights to print the images - so that's why they are asking you to purchase the CD. This should all be outlined in your contract.
I'm not sure what you're expecting as an answer to this (?). Frankly, what you did is theft. Are you considering putting these out at your wedding where your photographer (I'm assuming the same person?) would see them? I would strongly recommend against this.
Also, as a photographer, this would drive me batty, not just because of the theft aspect, nor the lost revenue for hours and hours of work, but because that's my work that you took, and the poor image quality would reflect very poorly on *me*.
Please don't do this.
And I'm asking this as a woman and a mom of three young children, as someone who puts her heart into her work, and spends hours and hours each day on her business and her art.
I am not in the field, but I have a suggestion. Is there anyway you could ask your photographer to sell you only a couple instead of the whole disc. This way you could use the ones you want in your decor, by going through the proper channels.
Ok, so you made me feel really bad. I didn't think of it like that, and no there is nothing about that in my contract. There just is charges for everything and it all adds up so fast. It was just a thought, and obviously a bad one, so i wont do it. I appreciate the professional opinion.
I'm not a pro photographer, but I'm a graphic designer who works in the printing industry and I can tell you:
- the print quality is going to be awful, and probably won't look the way you want it to (you're working with low resolution images which are only good for computer screens)
- you and anyone who prints these images are infringing on the photographer's copyright which is obviously illegal. You don't own these images, the photographer does.
Yea there is a reason you pay for the rights to the pictures. I'm sure there's something on that site about the copyright of them- the CD costs $$ because they sign the rights for those pictures over to you for use. It would not just be an issue of making them feel bad, but a legal issue!
@krista24:
Hey, just wanted to say I didn't mean to make you feel bad. I interpreted your post as recognizing that it's theft, but looking for validation. I didn't read it as a simple, honest question, which I now think it was (especially if there was nothing about it in your contract).
I'm glad you asked, and I would definitely ask your photographer about purchasing one or two images individually. S/he might even have some good recommendations for you in terms of paper, printing, etc. (it's in his/her best interest for the pics to look good!).
Thanks alicia...no i didn't realize the seriousness of it...I even took out my contract and reread again and theres nothing about it. But it does make sense...I may consider buying them all, its just I wasn't overly in love with most of them so I'm not sure if I want to pay for them all...but to purchase them individually is $25 each! So I won't go that way, maybe I will buy them all. But I do appreciate everyone's response...I would never do it knowing what I know now!
I totally used hyper snap to save all my photos from the online gallery. However, my wedding was in June and I still don't have my photos, but, I also receive all the rights to them, which was part of my contract. I'm sure I'm fudging the line, but it's really all I have. I wouldn't use them for anything (The quality is so so so so poor in comparison to how good the real ones are) but I have shown them here on WB and my avatar is an e-pic....and I've sent them to my mom (who isn't very internet savvy).
You aren't the only one. It's kind of a bad thing to do...but i'm over it and since I technically get them in the future (after the wedding, when we proof our album, which i'm still waiting to do), I didn't think as much about it.
Is the whole CD that expensive?
the cd isnt really expensive, its jus that I don't think the shots are all that great..nothing compared to all that ive seen from other bees. If i really loved them I'd buy it and not think twice, but there really are just some shots that I want. Hopefully not an indication of how my wedding photos will be...but it wasnt my photographer I requested that did the e-photos, it was the owner cuz its his property we were at. But I was happy with what I saw at their shop so.
@krista24 For someone who does not work in the business I definitely understand where you are coming from. I thought that when you paid for the CD you were paying for their touchups and a better quality picture. Usually photographers put logos on them to ensure that you don't just "steal them" (my photog was a friend and I asked her to put them on so I could brag for her).
I'd definitely suggest that you talk to your photographer though. It seems like you don't want to buy these pictures because you're not impressed by them or the quality. You DEFINITELY do not want your wedding pictures to turn out like this either. Maybe explaining why you don't like them (I had horribly frizzy hair on my day, it wasn't my photog's fault but my own... but I still wasn't too happy with how they turned out) will not only help you to get a better deal on them (to use as table numbers) but will make sure that your wedding picutures are wonderful!
Just a thought! Don't feel bad about what you did - not everyone works in the industry and if this is why we have contracts. Definitely let your photog know that you were confused so she'll know to tell her future customers!
Good luck and I hope everything comes out perfectly :)
btw... You should *love* your photos. I'd make absolutely certain (in writing) that you get the photog you want for your wedding. If you're not sure, I'd shop around for other photographers.
I am increasingly confused by photographers that claim copyright of pictures, and then charge high prices for individual pictures. I must be missing something... brides seem to hate this, so why do photogs do this?
@mrbee: I'm not sure that I understand your question? Are you asking why prices are high and why photographers retain copyrights to their images?
Here's a recent article that addresses cost:
http://robynoneill.com/archives/770
Most photographers I know aren't exactly sitting in the lap of luxury. It's an expensive, time-intensive business, and session fees don't even begin to cover costs. Especially photographers who custom-edit their work... they *have* to charge for prints/downloads, or else they'd never be able to stay in business.
Re: the copyright issue--it's the photographer's work, so s/he retains copyright. Most photographers allow limited licensing by selling the hi-res DVD or incorporating digital images into a package...
Reputable photographers spell out *everything* up-front, in a written contract, that is given to the client/bride to sign. If s/he is not happy with the agreement, then s/he may always go find another photographer.
Also, selling the digital image rights isn't my favorite thing to do, because I use a professional lab, and I know the client's prints are going to look lousy compared to what I could get for them, and poor-quality prints tend not to thrill clients or make the photographer look especially good.
I'm still not sure I understand what you're asking, though. If I misinterpreted, please clarify.
-A
Holy toledo!
Well I am not gonna beat the dead horse. The photographer didn't mention about you will have to purchase the DVD separately? :/ He should have really had that listed in the contract and informed you. Discuss it with your photographer.
Yah I agree it's up to the clients. I would personally never work with a photographer who held my pictures hostage. I would much rather pay a higher session fee, than have to deal with a-la-carte pricing of each image.
My personal take is that even if the client pays the per-image fee, the charges leave a bad taste in the customer's mouth. We have heard from many upset brides about this on our boards. I realize it's almost always all spelled out in the contract, but as you can imagine most photographers don't emphasize it during the sales process.
But some clients don't mind, so to each their own!
Clients can use professional printing labs also. It would be nice if photographers would mention this to their clients. I had to find out through a friend--but using a real photographic printing company versus, say, Walgreens, DOES make a difference.
I agree MrBee! I made sure I'll be getting "CD/DVD of all images - high-resolution files with print release" when I first booked my photographer - as someone who loves to use their pictures on facebook, wedding website, around the house, thank you cards... it was very important to get the pictures from that day. Also - if you have to pay per picture - the picture you might not have appreciated now might be one that you would love in a decade from now.
Either way - talk to your photographer, its the only way to get to the bottom of this!
Well I tend to give a list reputable consumer labs to choose from, I saw what generic labs did to my photos as a test. Sad day. Most professional labs usually ask for your business info to actually utilize their labs.
In any case, Krista, let us know what happens!
I agree with Mr. Bee.
I would much rather know the charges upfront and be charged higher for the session. What is the photographer going to do with my pictures? At that point they are just going to waste because each image is at a high cost so the bride can't get the joy of having them and the photographer has no connection with them. Such a waste.
There is no way I would have highered a photographer where that was their way. Luckily we had a very good one who happily overloaded us with images and isn't throwing away others he deemed the not good ones. Yeah we'll only print out a few but I love looking at all of them.
@mrbee: So I'm not sure what you're recommending. I think automatically including the cost of the entire DVD in every session would keep too many people away (to clarify, I do mostly children/family portraiture). Personally, I offer cost-per-image digital downloads from clients' galleries, or the option of the entire DVD for much less than the cost of downloading all images individually.
I think the bigger issue is that the majority of folks don't realize the extraordinary amount of time and effort that goes into photography, and want all the images from their event more or less for free (again, if I included the cost of the DVD in the session fee, it becomes cost-prohibitive for people who may not *want* all the images). If I gave away all the images on DVD--even though the material cost is just the disk/shipping/etc.--I'd be out of business.
I do specifically discuss various session packages with clients, though, and make sure everyone's clear on what they're getting / not getting (in fact, I do a formal consultation prior to "just" pics of someone's kiddo--let alone a wedding!).
I don't see how that makes sense - at that point it's just a DVD, how does that cost more than a couple dollars, it's your time and work that is where the cost comes in. And for any edited photos.
I definately didn't want all my photos edited, that would have taken forever, and I'd gladly pay for some of them to be edited by the photographer, but I do want to see all of the pictures and have access to them unedited.
I've seen plenty of photographers who put their images on DVD, how does that put anyone out of business?
@bvig:
Costs are not covered by the session fee. Without income from prints/digital images as well, businesses could not survive. By splitting costs between the session fees and the prints/images, the client has more flexibility depending on his/her budget.
And I *do* offer to put images on DVD; but clients need to pay for that DVD if it isn't part of their package (and, again, they have the option of not including it in their package to keep their costs down; especially if they don't think they'll want every picture).
I process/edit every picture individually. I don't simply take snapshots, throw them up in a gallery, and let clients have at it. That's a business choice that I've made; and that's why folks who prefer my style hire me.
Wow, I never realized copyright was such an issue. I just wanted to share that here in Toronto, while looking for a photographer I noticed every photographer gave their clients high res DVDs. Perhaps this is in keeping with Canadian privacy laws, I'm not sure, but this has never been an issue.
@MrBee, it's an issue of Intellectual Property, the work is of value to both the Photographer and the Client.
The issue is that people many times see a Wedding and Portrait Photographer as providing a service, yet sometimes they forget that they are also providing a product. It comes down to how valuable BOTH parties view the photography, and IMO is a market specific issue.
It all comes down to that initial consultation, if the client likes the photographer, and the photographer likes the client, then both need to be completely honest and productive in their INITIAL meeting on discussing all these factors, including charges one what may seem intangible to one party, yet is completely tangible to the other.
- Vic
Hey krista24,
I'm totally with you too. This exact thing happened to me a week ago. Unlike you I didn't even have a contract and I didn't know that I wasn't getting a dvd of the pictures and when I found out how much extra it was (almost the have the cost of the very expensive session) I was super sad that it was not cleared up with me before.
I think you are in the same boat as I was, had I known there was an extra cost that would have not been a big deal but finding out about it after I paid for the engagement session made me really sad.
*hugs*
We ended up paying for our pictures on DVD. Though I must said I loved loved love aboug 90/137 pictures that were taken. So it was worth it to us to own those pictures and hold on to them. It did leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Good luck!
@alicia - perhaps but it is a business model that turns me and a lot of people off. I would not consider hiring someone where this was their practice and I do think I'm not the only one. But almost everyone we talked to did include a DVD, so I don't think eveyone would be going out of business these people seem to be doing fine.
http://www.fuelyourphotography.com/wedding-photographers-what-not-to-do/
So, I think the bottom line is, photogs charge what they need to charge for the original files so that 1) they can eat 2) it's worth their time and artistry 3) based on market demand 4) it IS their intellectual property.
BUT, I think what the brides and mrbee are getting at, which I agree with as well, is that photographer needs to be upfront with the costs, and there's also an onus on the brides to ask that question. Some photogs might not have chosen to be upfront because maybe they're afraid that the clients won't book them. More transparency upfront = less hard feelings down the road.
@bviq: I understand what you're saying, and I give my clients the choice of getting a DVD or not. Totally up to them. Like I said, I do mostly children/family stuff, and I'm looking to do some more engagement work. I like this board because I enjoy seeing the pictures, and reading real people's reactions to them.
If a family just wants a family shot for over their mantle, or an image for a holiday card, then it makes more sense for them to pay for things a la carte, and decide after the session if they'd like the entire DVD.
I would strongly encourage brides to make sure their packages include DVDs (it *is* a different ballgame), and I think photographers who aren't upfront are making a HUGE mistake--yeah, they might get the client in the door. But I'm *hugely* dependent on word-of-mouth advertising, and I can't imagine that aggravated clients make for great advertising.
Ok I think I need to clarify a little more...our engagement session was included for free when I booked them for the wedding and they did tell me at the session it was $100 to buy a dvd of all the images...not alot of money and my session was free so im probably being a big baby, but we all know how costs add. Plus I get a free 8x10. I in no way blame my photog for what they do...I get it, why should they take these pics in a free session and then give me the pics for free? $100 really is a good price for the dvd. i just thought maybe i could do something myself to avoid the cost, but i now see that wasnt a very good idea of mine! So I knew the cost upfront, it just didnt say anything in my contract about using the images if i didnt pay for them...i guess maybe they dont realize some of us think to do a print screen and paste and crop for hours to save all the pics!! but i mainly did that because the website is up for a limited amount of time.
And I know that the negatives from the wedding are $200 if they arent included in the package you select. and i will definitely purchase that, even though I know my own printing isnt as high quality as what they would do. But she even suggested purchasing the dvd and then printing on my own what I want, as ordering a single 4x6 or 5x7 is much more from them then from say snapfish or shutterfly. My mom really likes my pics, I just feel after looking at others on this site that he wasnt very creative with his shots, pretty run of the mill. but then it was a free session so i guess thats what i get, and he wasnt my photographer i requested for the wedding, but it was at his property so i guess he always does them. i was happy with their work when i went to their studio, their portraits are the only ones you see on the walls at my reception, tehy are their recommended photog, so that made me feel comfortable. even if i wasnt, i already paid my deposit and another $800 installment, so i couldnt back out even if i wanted to, right?
I think this is starting to get a little off topic... good info... but off the topic at hand. So... to the OP.
1) Copyrights are granted the second your photographer clicked the shutter. This means he has legal recourse against you for this and could also potentially break contract which you could be potentially breaking. And even if there is nothing about you specifically screen grabbing, the courts know this is theft and will uphold that. You know the horror stories of people getting fined hundreds of thousands for downloading 20 songs... it's the same thing. Is it easy? Yes. Is it right? No. Giving your photog an opportunity to break contract is not something you want to happen when they find out on your wedding day. I hate to say it, but some WOULD leave. Would I? NO. Would I be pissed? YES... and I bet it would affect my attitude and willingness to slave myself to your every whim. Would you know? No. Even on bad day's I'm a professional... however, I bet you would miss some greatness if I was as excited to create art for you as I usually am.
2) It is a HUGE reflection on us, and your friends and family and what keep us in business. So if they see pixelated or off colors and not as intended people aren't getting a true representation of our work... and some wont hire us because of it!
3) I'm really kinda worried at your statement that you saw what you liked in the shop (which may be a callaboration of many photographers) and that it wasn't your hired photog. The engagement session should be more that just having an e-pic. It should be you AND your photographer getting used to the dynamics of you as a a couple, and how you work together. Also, sometimes it's then that we learn about what parts of your body you like better or worse... what works best when shooting you, and then based on feedback from the shoot, what will make your wedding perfect. So I highly rec. to everyone to ONLY shoot with your intended photographer.
If there's only a few you like I'd be worried. Shoot, I just posted an e-sesh on the blog and had over 30 faves on there... lol.
Please keep us updated.
Ah! I hate when threads are updated while I formulate and post! lol. Where's the live feed WB!? haha, jk.
I think, if I were you I'd double check that your getting a specific photographer and ask to see that photographers specific work. You keep saying "their work." As in the studio's. If all you've seen is the top 10% of multiple photographers you may be in for another let down on your wedding day :-\ You may be very heavily invested ($) already, but at least knock this out of the way BEFORE the wedding, at least then there won't be any surprises :-)
I also find it tacky that you didn't get to shoot with your intended photographer AND they make you pay for that... But, every business is different. There isn't a right or wrong one path way....
Thats exactly what I thought!!! I was never told that it wasn't my photog doing our e-pics until the day of! Like when I showed up there and was like 'hey, where's dave.' he seemed surprised i even asked, like maybe he thought I already knew that since it was his property it would be him there. But the little switch-a-roo was a little bizarre to me. They told me my 8x10 portrait was there for me to pick up, so when I go in I'm gonna make sure I am getting who I want, because apparently they have 3 Dave's that work there and I want to make sure I get the one I want! I felt comfortable with him when I met him, but I think I felt most comfortable with their price! My fiance wasnt a fan of doing the engagement shoot and I kept telling him it was a way for us to get used to our photog and him us, and then to not even be him, well that kinda sucked!! I think I need to really sit down with him again...I just can't be out $1000 and back out, I gotta make it work. Im gonna tell them I felt uncomforable that I didn't know who would be my photog that day, and need to make sure there wont be another surprise the day of the wedding!
Is it acceptable for a costumer to discuss prices for each photo, or for the whole DVD if he/she was not happy with the result but he/she still hopes to get married just one time in his/her live and it has a sentimental value for him/her to keep and use the photos even if they are not that great??
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Ok so as a photographer is this something that would make you mad or that you would say something to the bride about...I didn't want to pay for the cd of images from our engagement and the photog made a website with our images, so i did a print screen and pasted and cropped them all and saved them one by one. Now I know the quality isnt as great but it was a free way to get all my images! I'd like to incorporate them into my guest book and/or table numbers, but I dont want to piss off my photographer either!! What would you do if a client of yours did that?