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My husband is Jewish, and i was raised Catholic. We had some religious differences to settle as we got more serious, but for us it was pretty easy. So I get the "we have different beliefs, but we love each other and it works" thing. But I honestly couldn't say that I would marry someone who thought marrying me would condemn him to hell unless he pulled a Mulligan after we got married. Which is basically what it sounds like your fiance is saying. I don't know what type of wedding you guys are planning--whether it's religious or not--but I would definitely want to address this before you go through with anything. Good luck!
hmmm ... what is his reasoning for joining this church if it doesnt agree with some of its fundamental beliefs? I wouldn't be insulted, but confused.
You know, I kind of understand where he's coming from. The religious beliefs that I was raised with are part of the cultural fabric of who I am. I don't necessarily believe all the things I was taught, but some of it has stuck with me and resonated with me my whole life.
Are you guys going to get some pre-marital counseling? I feel like this should be one of the prime topics to discuss. If he's planning to go back to his religious beliefs at some point it may be problematic.
Case in point, my Catholic uncle married my atheist Jewish aunt. Both were atheist, and then deep into their marriage, he decided to go back to the Catholic church... and that he could no longer be with my aunt. It was really hard on their family, and on our extended family... I kind of wish that he could have respected the differences despite his changing views.
I definitely think you should talk to him about it - it obviously bothers you, and he needs to know that!
I am religious, but the thought of my husband washing away the sin of our marriage might actually be a dealbreaker for me.
It seems like maybe he's doing it to appease people in his church, like his family? Maybe you guys should talk about it. It doesn't seem like it's going to have an effect on your relationship/marriage, but maybe just have a discussion to see exactly what his thinking it on the subject.
It's ODD that he doesn't want to go to his religions "version" of heaven and he'd rather just fade away but yet he still wants to essentially commit himself to those beliefs... AFTER you get married.
I think your frustration is understandable and I think that you should talk about it.... with a pre-marital councilor as well.
I can see how that would seem hurtful to you. But I think it's more about him dealing with his religious views vs. his family etc. I agree that it might be he's doing the baptism to appease his family. (Otherwise I think he would have greaterreservations in marrying you, and would truly want to go to "their heaven".) Also, his way of backing into baptism, by marrying you first, then being baptized. Well I don't like it. Umm, I guess it shows that he really wants to marry you, because he really figured out a way to make it happen. But I kind of feel like if he was serious, he would realize that God knew his intentions and it would make his baptism seem like a farce. It sounds disrespectful to his religion, especially since he doesn't seem to really want to be a part of it. Sorry to say, I think he's trying to take the cowardly way out of telling his family he doesn't want to be in their religion. I don't entirely blame him. I know it's hard. But can't he just say, he's not ready. Or he's still praying about it or something?
I understand where you're coming from. BF is Protestant and I'm Catholic (my mother cried when I told her about BF's religion---that's how Catholic we are). I don't blame you for feeling the way you do, I would too. Also, another issue to discuss would be kids and how you would raise them (would you want them to share FI's beliefs?). We had to have this conversation and it took awhile to come to a compromise. Good luck!
Actually, this worries me a little bit. Number one, it seems like a farce from a religious standpoint. Like scheduling confession for Thursday afternoon because on Wednesday you plan on doing something you're not supposed to. That's not really the point....
What I would ultimately be more concerned about, though, is how involved he is with this church. If it's the baptism and that's that, well, that's one thing. If this is going to be a big part of his life, then I think you need to really talk this through.
Something like that can drive a wedge between people. Will he be getting negative feedback from his peers about the fact that you are not a member of the church? Will he urge you to convert at some point? Will either of you be bothered that the other disagrees wholeheartedly on such an important topic?
I'd be really offended too. I think you should talk to him openly and calmly about this ASAP - to me, this is a fundamental issue that is going to come up again and again if you two don't get on the same page about it now. I agree with the other poster that said it sounds like he is trying to "wash away the sin of your marriage." Whether or not he really believes this, he's willing to make a public statement (action, I guess) symbolizing that, and that would really hurt to see.
I think this definitely bothers you. It's like doing something "bad" and saying "oh it's okay i'll just repent later"...it sorta defeats the purpose fo the whole thing of forgiveness, right? Making a conscious choice to sin? Then again, I'm not a big person for "okay i'm baptized, NOW i'm saved" so I don't quite understand his reasoning. I think it's a little..miguided? Maybe he needs to find a new religion--one that balances his beliefs a little better. Seeing as how he doesn't want to go to "his religion's heaven", well, i think that says a lot. Maybe he'd be open to a different denomination?
Seeing as how he is religious and you are atheist I think you'll run into a lot of these issues. He may try to forcefully convert you or try to make up for your lack of beliefs in other ways that are equally insulting to you. He sounds like he needs to probably sort of his beliefs a little better--what does HE believe versus what the Church tells him, etc? He probably struggles with what he is told to believe vs what he does, otherwise, like tanya said, if he was really truly religious underneath it all, he may have had reservations about starting a relationship with you but obviously loves you too much to change--so his belief system is what is crashing. I have very religious friends who won't even go down "that road" so I can see how it becomes an internal conflict. talk to him about how you feel--make sure he truly is respectful of you. He should be into the religion he's in for himself--not his family.
The whole getting baptized post-marriage to wash away the sin of the marriage really bugs me. I DON"T GET IT. How does going into it make it better? THen again, how does him getting baptised make the conscious choice TO get married to you (with the acknowledgement that he'll get baptised afterwards) absolve him of that? i didn't think the system was set up for purposeful deception =\. Your FI sounds confused. Do you want your children raised in this church?
Think of it this way: he's committed to you for this life. Sounds like he's committed to something bigger than you for the afterlife though.
That said, does his religion actually teach that the action of baptism washes the sin away? or is it symbolic of the cleansing done by God (assuming his religion believes in God)? He sounds a little conflicted to me; how could he be comfortable sharing his life with someone who he saw a sin? I mean, he'll still BE MARRIED to you after the baptism, either way.
If I were in your shoes, I'd be more confused than offended, or worried that he's following/taking part in a religion he so obviously doesn't seem to believe.
I think you guys need to talk you should not be forced to change who you are no matter what you believe. He should love you for who you are without forcing change. Religion is a tricky subject when it comes to relationships. Huggs!
OK, can you clarify something? Is he getting baptized, because he wants to wash away the "sin of your marriage"? I was thinking he was going to get baptized anyway, but that he's just thinking he should wait until you're married, so that it won't seem like he's "resinning" after his baptism. I'm not saying either is rihgt. But I think ther is a differenc between the two. If he feels like getting married to you is a sin, then needs to get baptized, that seems like a huge issue. But it sounds to me like, the whole sinning in marrying you is something others believe, not him. (And that he's just wimping out of standing his ground and stating his own beliefs to his family.)
Regardless of whether he actually believes the marriage would be a sin, I would be hurt that he would even appease the other people who think it is. If he wants to get baptized because of tradition or family pressure, I think that is one of those things you bend on, even if you don't agree with it. But deliberately waiting until after the wedding to wipe the slate clean (even if just for appearances) is just plain hurtful. Regardless of what he believes, it is like he is saying to his family and other believers that he is sorry for marrying you when he should be standing up to them on your behalf.
I agree with the other bee's. This would bug me a lot. I would feel like he was trying to wash away our marriage. Like our union of love for eachother was a sin, and I don't think I would be okay with that. I think you need to talk to him, and let him know exactly how this makes you feel. Some part of me also thinks he might just be doing this to appease his chruch or his family, and I think you should talk to him about that also, if he is doing it because he wants to, or because his church or family wants him to? And I don't think either are okay. I don't think I could marry someone who basically is thinkng "Marrying you is a sin, I need to be forgiven." or someone who puts what his family wants infront of what you want, cause I mean that could get ugly, because if he is doing this because his family wants him too, and he is going to do it, then I can only imagine what else he might do to please them. I think you both need to go to pre-marriage counseling. To me this is a big issue, and would deeply hurt me if my FI could look at me and say "I sinned because I married you. Our marriage is a sin." I would be questioning why he married me or wants to marry me in the first place if he thinks that. I think I would also be very confused, but also very angry, and hurt. I def. think this would be a deal breaker for me, because later on in life if we were still married, I would be very depressed, because my husband thinks our union is a sin and it would send him to hell.This would def. be a serious issue for me, and I wish you all the luck in the world that this works out.
@ Mrs. DG: We are considering pre-marital counselling. We're not sure 100% yet, but it is on our list of things to look into.
@ MALove: We have had the infamous "kid" discussion (and the ceremony discussion). With regards to the wedding, we're avoiding any religious overtones whatsoever. In terms of children, we've agreed that we'll raise them initially without religion, but definitely educate them about different religions and about how it's okay no matter what you choose.
@ Tanya: He would be getting baptized anyways.
Thanks for all your input guys. I think it's something that I'll bring up with him; we didn't really have a chance to talk about it when he first mentioned it because we were in the middle of coffee time at his church (I go about 1-2 times a year with him when I haven't seen him in a while).
I haven't read the other posts... but I chuckled a little at the
"He, therefore, is planning on waiting to get baptized until AFTER we get married, so that in the eyes of his church and God, he won't have sinned."
As if God doesn't know his motives... lol.
I don't mean to be rude. Just real.
I don't believe it is a sin to marry outside of Christianity.. it is just not encouraging.. It is a big thing..so to not agree on it..is a hard thing... That is why I would see it as a problem.
I am a christian and I do believe that baptism as an adult makes the most sense.. it is a symbol of chosing the Christian life.. dying of your old self and taking on new life with Christ. That is the translation of what baptism means in the bible. The "washing of sins" as you put it... is more of a daily thing, repenting & asking for forgiveness and it being given= grace :D
His thought process of heaven does confuse me.. Cause even the way you described the version of heaven his religion does believe...it isn't what the bible says.
I do think that fading away and thinking that we were made for only this life is a quite sad.. We were made for much much more :)
And if that is the reality (fading and there not being anything more) Well I am glad that I took the chance.. cause what if that is not true, what if there is more?? I don't want to miss out!!!
I'm so sorry you are going through this!!!
I think what would bug me is the underlying feeling I'd have that he believes marrying me is a sin. That is NOT what I would want to be going through my mind on my wedding day. Here you are, committing your life to someone, with the knowledge that there might be some guilt that he will absolve after the fact.
From what you said, it sounds like he isn't sure if he wants to be committed to the religion and/or having his own set of doubts about their beliefs (including it being a sin to marry outside of one's faith). I think you should encourage your FI to look deeply into THAT - since it's the core of what he's struggling with. As cliche as this sounds - it's not about you at all. It's about him and his process of figuring out what he believes and how he's going to handle it. The last thing you'd want to do is enter into a commitment with him and have him be conflicted about it for the rest of his life. He's come up with a creative loophole of absolving his "sin" - but that doesn't change the fact that he'll still be married! There can be a lot of pressure from his religious community that he may not even be aware of. Does he have any married, perhaps older male friends that share his faith that he could be candid about this with?
@ Redeemed Rebekah: I respect that your views on faith and the Bible may be different than his, but that isn't the issue here (although I do agree that it's kind of strange to expect that God will just ignore everything that happened before you become baptized, but that's what they believe in his faith). I'm not planning on changing his beliefs at all -- just like he's not planning on changing mine -- so whether he's right or wrong in terms of your denomination's interpretation of the Bible doesn't matter. : ) Sorry if I sound a little snippish, but I just wanted to make that clear. I totally respect that you don't agree with him, but I'm not going to make him change his faith.
I appreciate your response. I hate posting sometimes about deep issues.. cause I feel like people read them with an attitude that is not how it is written. So please take this as adding to the conversation and a great conversation at that. I am a really laid back and happy person... I am not here to argue.
I am sorry to come off as all correcting. I am just passionate about sharing and mulling details of religion over.
Back to the real issue: I agree that you have a right to be upset about this situation with your FI. It is important to work out these things as they will effect you future (kids). And for your FI to respect you.. not think you are cramping his saving style. Tell him exactly how it makes you feel. It will work out. :)
@ Redeemed Rebekah: Thanks. : ) And sorry again if I came off in a bad way.
We went through something very similar.
FI is Catholic and I'm no athiest but wasn't raised with an organized religion. When I'd go to church with FI, I noticed he didn't take the Eucharist and I asked him about it. He said "well...I'm sinning". Because he was living with me and we weren't married, he he was committing a sin and had no intention of stopping, therefore no taking of the Host. I was extremely offended and I felt terrible and above all, I felt dirty. Like he couldn't be with me and keep his soul clean, so I totally get what you're saying.
For us, in turns out that our dispute was over the word "sin". For him, sinning was something that was very black and white. He is doing X, therefore the consquence is Y and he must to Z to make it right. For me however, since I wasn't raised with anything that concrete, sinning is much more personal. For me, to commit a sin is something truly agregious. I don't have the religious structure of forgiveness behind me, so my sins (that is, the mistakes that I make that make me feel like s*&t) are completely mine and I have to make personal recompense for them. Eventually we worked it out when we talked and I realized all that. It wasn't as easy as it sounds, but we got through it.
I have not read all the other posts but for me *(I'm not a very religious person; but still believe)... anyway.. for me you don't have to believe in every single aspect of a religion to be considered "saved." I think that to be baptised into a certain religion you should agree with "most" views but not necesarrily all. He obviously doesn't see marrying outside of the religion a sin so I don't understand why he wants to wait. I would be upset if I were you too. Because it does make it seem like he wants to be baptised after the marriage to show his church & family he's washing away his sins. Which just so happens to be right after your marriage. I think if he really wants to stand beside his beliefs he needs to be baptised before the marriage & live with his "sin" to the church. But stand on not believing in that particular belief. JMO
meh, as far as i'm concerned, all of the religious rituals and traditions are just symbolism. Obviously him getting dunked at a church isn't going to wash anything away. If you're an athiest, let him be and do what he wants, but let him know that you feel he's being hypocritical and once he understands your concerns, see how he reacts. Good luck
If he's willing to marry you and tolerate your differences in belief, then i don't think he's as serious about his "beliefs"...it just doesn't make any sense to me that he would still want to commit to them, while ignoring their basic premises and guidelines. It's kind of hypocritical of your fiance to wait to make a decision about baptism until after the marriage occurs. Knowingly committing what he knows or considers is a sinful act before he gets baptized doesn't make it any less sinful.
I guess what I'm trying to say is what other posters are saying...he's either doing it to appease family friends, etc, to make him feel less guilty about leaving a church he grew up in, or he is hoping you will change your mind about religion. Because of very explicit commands in the bible about not being yolked to an unbeliever, I don't see another option! And all three would bother me if I were you.
I can understand why you'd feel upset about him wanting to marry you against his beliefs, then get baptized to wash the sin of your marriage away. (baptism is irrelevant without true repentance and faith) That understanding (by him and the church) that your marriage is a sin would bother me too, if I was in the same situation.
Hope you are able to talk this out and get to the root of the issue.
Regardless of his actual feelings, the situation your fiance has constructed very clearly places your marriage in the category of "sin," and I can completely appreciate how hurtful that must be.
I think you need to have a conversation with him ASAP about why, precisely, he's doing this and how he would feel if you were to make a similar choice. It's probably also worthwhile to inquire as to how far he'd be willing to go to appease his faith or family. I'd also think long and hard about whether you're okay raising a family with someone willing to put the opinions of others - corporeal and not - above you and your partnership.
You might also want to point out to your FI that it's mindblowingly disrespectful to the adherents of his religion to "go through the motions" for the sake of personal gratification.
Thank you everyone for commenting. : ) We've resolved the issue, and all is well. Thank you so much for letting me know it's okay to feel what I felt, and for helping me make a balanced decision.
I'm not religious, but wow, that would be a total dealbreaker for me. Viewing our marriage as a sin that needs to be washed away? Uhm, no. I think you 2 should definitely get some pre-marital counseling before you walk down the aisle. No matter what his religion, there's no way I'd marry a man that viewed our commitment as a sin that he needs to have exsponged from his soul. Definitely not. Just because his church views it that way doesn't mean he has to subscribe to everything that his church preaches. There are lots of Christians, Jews, etc. that don't necessarily take 100% of what their religion says to heart. Unfortunately, in this case, it looks like your SO does, which deeply worries me.
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Backstory: My fiance belongs to a religion that believes in "adult baptism" (aka, you get baptized when YOU want to commit to the religion, and that is when all your sins are washed away). His religion also, coincidentally, views marriage to people outside of that faith as a sin (I am an evil atheist, so a double-sin if such a thing exists, LOL).
So, basically, marrying me will be a sin according to his church. He, therefore, is planning on waiting to get baptized until AFTER we get married, so that in the eyes of his church and God, he won't have sinned.
Honestly, this makes me feel a little...insulted. Don't get me wrong, I understand why he wants to do it (to cover his ass, I guess), and he respects my atheism. But I still feel a little bit like he's not willing to really COMMIT-commit, you know what I mean? For better or worse, and all that? Quite frankly, that's an over-exaggeration. He'll be a wonderful husband and he IS committed, but his thought process just makes me feel less-than-happy.
Am I right for feeling this way? (Unhappy, that is.) Obviously I would never ever try to talk him out of it -- it's his religion, his soul, his call. It doesn't bug me a huge amount. But I was just looking for a little, I don't know, bee-wisdom/sympathy?
(I should also add that another reason it bugs me is that he's ADMITTED that he doesn't want to go to his religion's version of Heaven (living forever doing good deeds) and that he'd rather just die and fade from existence, and yet he's still concerned about making sure that this sin gets "washed off" by baptism -- sorry, was that too morbid?)