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Given several situations on the Bee where it seemed that people in a minority group felt it was appropriate to say negative and unpleasant things about the other side of the coin it made me wonder. Does reverse discrimination bother you or do you feel that in their situation you would feel the same way. To me it seems hypocritical but then I worry that I am not being empathetic enough.
So how about it bees. I feel stereotypes, discrimination and intolerance is wrong but maybe that just means I am intolerant of the people that do that?
Discrimination is discrimination, no "reverse" about it in my opinion.
Special treatment because of being a certain race, gender, etc., is also discriminatin in my opinion.
I don't want to get into a political debate, so please no one take it as such, but this is one of the best examples that comes to mind.
In my opinion, both are equally "racist". Different treatment, whether good or bad, is still wrong. Equality is right.
@abbyful: This. I couldnt say it better myself.
You judge people on their merits.
You act and behave and make decisions based on being moral and honest.
I think it makes perfect sense. Discrimination in the workplace. Something I work for. It promotes women in management. It promotes disabled people in the workplace. People in minority groups do and IMO SHOULD get special treatment.
The tricky part is determining the "how" or "what is special treatment" and who is entitled to it. That I cannot answer.
@vmec: I think the only special treatment they should get is to allow them to operate on the same level.
If you are in a wheelchair, you are entitled to a ramp, or lower sinks etc. You are not entitled to a manger position.
I do think that a new hire or promotion needs to have definative proof that the experience, interview, credentials are superior just so there is no preferential treatment.
@vmec: I was hired into two positions because I was a woman. Now I was highly qualified but the main hiring qualification was my gender. I was humiliated by that. I do not want preferential treatment because I was a woman in a highly male dominated industry. I started both jobs in a hole because it was widely known I was hired because I was a "skirt". I managed to climb out of those holes but always felt it was not fair.
Are we sure that the people we are extending special protection to always want it?
Just a thought and I am probably in the minority here on this :)
@unixfairy: There is no forward or reverse. Picking on someone for things that they can't change is just simply discrimination.
Being vegan doesn't discriminate against meat eaters any more than being a meat eater discriminates against vegans. They're just different choices. That particular case, unlike some of the others that we're sort of stuck with, is ideologic so there is at least room to talk about why one choice might be better or worse.
I read that it's lame to be skinny on this site ALL the time. I probably notice it more than the opposite situation because it's the way that makes me feel targeted. I also think that weight is something that one has a certain amount of control over athough our overall look is something that we're stuck with. It's fine to talk about what is our idea of healthy. But just saying that someone is too thin or heavy to look good is mean. Today someone said something about stick bug models right after I put up a pic in the us vs. model thread. I was at least as skinny as my dress' model, and it did make me feel bad. Not that bad, but still. We're going to be drawn to a certain set of aesthetics by nature so a certain amount of discrimination in our minds is inevitable, but we don't have to act on it in an ugly way.
When it comes to race or sexual orientation we are who we are. Picking on one group and saying that it's better or worse is always off-limits regardless of which group takes more knocks on average.
@Melini: I saw that post btw and think you look exquisite and healthy and thought it was out of line. I just believe in being tolerant of other people's choices or differences (not always a choice) but being dogmatic and pushy about your choices/differences being the only way is discriminatory if that rambling makes sense. :)
@unixfairy: ^^^ Thank you. :-)
I don't know if dogmatic = discriminatory, but it certainly can make one an annoying pain in the butt!
"People in minority groups do and IMO SHOULD get special treatment."
Can you elaborate as to the "why"? Why should someone's skin color, gender, disability, etc. entitle them to special treatment above others?
I'm a female in a male-dominated field (I'm a computer programmer), if I want to be "equal", I don't see why I should get a promotion over a man is he is more deserving, I think the promotion should go to who deserves it more based on performance.
And I don't think someone that is a minority should get a promotion over someone that is white if the white person is more deserving; and likewise the white person shouldn't get the promotion it if the minority person is more deserving.
The same for disability, sexual orientation, etc.
Ha I always tell my children you cannot make a cake with just flour. It would be very bitter. You need many ingredients and in differing amounts to make something that tastes amazing. Celebrating the differences is what makes the world amazing.
@unixfairy: That's the thing, you were already qualified but if it hadn't been for this ivisble "quota" that they had to fill you would have been looked over merely because you are a woman. Is that fair?
Also I would argue, if you are that offended and or humiliated, you should have mentioned that to the interviewer and refused the job based on those grounds. Because to me it sounds like they can't win. Damned if they hire you (qualified) and damned if they don't (because they rather have a man). No offense meant... I'm glad you've bug yourself out of whatever hole you started in.
Now I'm NOT saying someone UNqualitified should get a job JUST because he's now white, and not a man. I'm saying IF they are qualified, and of a minority group they *should be* hired as opposed to the white guy.
@abbyful: How much extra crap do you have to deal with b/c you are a woman? If you feel like you don't lack the networking in-roads, mentorship, etc. that the guys have, then you should never get special consideration beyond your output, IMO. But if you have to do a lot more just to maintain the same job, then ALL of your extra burden should be considered when evaluating the whole of your work compared to the work of one of your male colleagues.
@unixfairy: re: your post about feeling like you had to live down the stigma of affirmative action hiring, I've seen both sides of this. I have a good AA friend who has an MBA from Wharton and a JD from Columbia and he felt the exact same way...that no one ever believed that he was there just because he was a pure-and-simple hot shot. But I also have had the experience of going to the top school in the country in my field and having had a classmate be their first AA student EVER (w/ zero AA faculty). Every year after he came and started actively recruiting, more AA students started choosing our school. Community matters, and if it's missing it's harder to feel like you belong. At the school where I teach, I often have only one AA student in my classes of 30. It's easy to say that she/he shouldn't feel like a party of one, but when the other racial groups of students clique up, I know that these students are not having the same access to a learning community. Some have the disposition to always find inclusion, but I come from too privileged of a place to say that others would be "wrong" to feel isolated and have a greater academic burden as a result.
On a personal note, as a woman in a male dominated field, I hated that there were no women faculty in my area in grad school and that the men were pretty lewd with me. I had no recourse. I think it made it harder for me to be there, and I don't feel like I have the same kind of network with those guys as my male counterparts as a result of the harassment.
@abbyful: I've already addressed your second point in my last post above.
I will answer the WHY. Do not forget, this is my opinion. I believe that in the instance of how deeply ingrained this discrimination is often times you (not YOU, just 'you') don't realize you're doing it. Interviewers, and recruiters do not THINK they are discriminating, they just are it's so deeply and widely accepted that men are 'better' at management and decision making therefore men will 8 out of 10 times (making this number up but the idea is true) the man is choosen over the woman. Unless there is some policy or quota in place I do not think there will ever be equality no matter how much any woman tries to 'prove' themselves.
Yes, AN individual woman may get promoted here and there but the number will most likely *always* be skewed towards men holding significantly more management positions.
@Melini - At my current job, I don't have to deal with any extra crap. I'm in a pretty small department, and there are 4 men and 2 women (I was the first woman in the department). It's a great work environment. It also probably helps that I work in a hospital, where overall there is a female-dominated workforce because most of the nurses are female.
I worked tech support in college, there I did face some discrimination. Not from my co-workers, but from people calling in. They'd hear a female voice on the phone and immediately ask to be transferred to a man.
Overall, I've never noticed discrimination from my peers in a professional setting, whether it be in college, at work, at various tech conferences, etc. There were a few times in college I got into a group of people I didn't know for a project and they had the mindset "girls can't program", but I straightened them out! :)
@vmec:See I don't agree with that at all because it just continues the cycle of racism. Whether it is against white people or black or brown or purple its still racism, because you in a sense have just said its ok NOT to hire a white guy because he is white and for no other reason (if we was as qualified as a darker skinned person).
This happened to me personally. I applied for a Native American scholarship (which I AM Native American). I also happen to be a very pale Native American. They flat out told me that because they were going to put my picture on their website they couldn't give the scholarship to someone who looked like me. I had a 4.0 gpa, volunteer work, other extras on my resume and I came from a very poor family and it was need and merit based, but in the end it was my skin color that determined whether or not I got the scholarship. That is just as racist as telling someone they can't have a scholarship for being too dark.
@vmec: OK so look at it this way
If it is so engrained in the pysche that a male is better than a female at management, then wouldnt the subordinates think the same thing? Therefore, making it, to some degree true? The best way to eliminate discrimination is to disprove it. So let the person earn it, not inherit it.
Maybe women have to work harder to get into management positions, but they need to get there on their own and the people need to respect them. A person "filling a quota" is not likely to gain respect easily, if at all.
Its the whole a women is a bitch, but a man is just a manager. Yeah, it sucks that is the perception, but its slowly disappearing. I am OK at working harder to earn a position that I am qualified for rather than given one that I am not.
Promoting someon based on a characteristic: red head, female, mexican etc isnt doing them any good. You are giving them an even steeper uphill battle to climb.
My disclaimer says: I cannot determine, whom or how or when it's "OK" I just think it has be to OK.
Women will never hold management positions (in equal proportions) without these quotas.
@lefeymw: And that's your opinion. Which is fine, but that's not how I see it. My gf whom is CA (which is harder than CGA) gets continually looked over for her male counterparts. Now she *could* be unqualified but I find that extremly hard to believe after the 4th promotion she was looked over for. Each time they said "it was really close but..." Im inclined to say that I'm not buying it.
Now if my work had a policy saying women need to fill 30% of management she'd probably get it. And not because she's a slacker and wears a skirt but because she's EQUALLY qualified.
I absoluetly disagree with the notion I should have to work harder for the exact same thing. Just my opinion but that to me is just bullshit in every way.
@abbyful: I agree 110%.
@abbyful: (Replying to two separate posts!) I worked at a computer repair shop in highschool as the lead tech/supervisor. When customers would come in they would start talking to me but stop and rush over to one of my male staff members as soon as they saw him. It was so satisfying to see their completely embarassed looks as they came back over to me when he would say "You need to speak to the head tech" and point at me. I'm so glad I'm somewhere right now where that is the least of my concerns.
@vmec: So if she isnt respected because of her work, why does she want to work there?
If she was only promoted because of her gender or color, why would she want to work there. If qualified people left companies because they were discriminated against, it would be a lesson to those companies.
If she really is qualified it may be hard, but not impossible to find a better job.
And would you be OK if that last person to fill the 30% was not qualified, but they had to fill it with a fill in the blank in order to meet the numbers? I dont want to work for a company that doesnt have a competant mangement team when they could have avoided it.
The problem with quotas is, its not always comparing two equally competant people.
And I, for one, do not want to work for a company that cant respect my contribution or work for a company that promotes on color or gender because that, again, shows a disrespect for my work.
Well, in some inductry cases take the Rooney Rule in NFL - it says that for Coaching positions you must INTERVIEW (not hire) a minority candidate. They are considering this same rule for English Premier League Soccer - but there is a difference between the sport. Prior to the Roony rule in the NFL, there were many lower coaching positions filled by minorities but not really any head coach positions. In English Premier League Soccer - there aren't really any minority coaches/managers (lower or head). In both sports there are many minority players, yet there is this gap.
In these instances I think that having a policy (for the NFL it is voluntary) like the Rooney rule is important, because it allows hiring managers to consider individuals that they may not have considered previously. Do they have to hire them? Not at all, and in many case many hiring managers already know who they want to hire (regardless of race). But in the case of a transparent hiring practice, I think it's a positive rule because it allows people into the process who may have just flown under the radar.
This is something that I have been thinking about a lot lately, actually. Last weekend was my bachelorette party and we went to Provincetown, MA, which is a well know, predominately gay town. We had an absolute blast, but one night we were at a "gay mens club" abd a woman came up to me and told me that it was disgraceful for my girlfriends and me to be there and to find our own place (that's the PG version, there were some key f-bombs in there as well). I was absolutely dumb founded to be in a place that was so accepting of the gay community and all of a sudden I was the minority and feeling discrimmination. Needless to say, we did go to another bar...which was filled with gay men who loved my shoes (seriously).
I was wearing my bachelorette get up (tiara, sash, etc), so it was obvious who I was. At first I thought maybe she was upset because I was "flaunting" my future marital status, but then I realized that gay marriage is, in fact, legal in MA. It was just simply mean and made me feel terrible.
Reverse discrimination is still discrimination. It doesn't matter what group is being discriminated against. If decisions about jobs, promotions, scholarships, etc. are being made based on a persons race, ethnicity, or sex instead of merit or qualifications, then that is discrimination. Plain and simple.
I think reverse discrimination helped me get into college. At my school I was one of the 4% latino population. I think in a school setting it helps in some ways but hurts in others. I KNOW I was qualified enough to get into that school even if I didn't mark latino, but they also showered me with a bunch of "latino culture" grants and scholarships, and I was asked to be in their brochure, perhaps as the "token latino." Was it good? Of course! But if I had a vote in whether my school did away with even marking an ethnicity on the applications, I would be all for it instantly.
Of course, the other side of that is that the less fortunate students who didn't get the same sort of education and attention I had my whole life growing up won't be at an equal footing with me, and diversity is always a good thing. I think that is looking at MUCH deeper social and cultural stigmas and problems though, something that you can't really fix on a surface level. Of course we'd all want to say race isn't an issue, but if that was the case at my school I think it would be 99% white kids.
Affirmative Action is not necessarily reverse discrimination it is increased favoritism I think. It is an interesting debate however on the success of the program. I mean at this point are we continuing discriminanatory behavior by favoring certain groups thus continuously calling attention to the fact that there is a difference?
@vmec: I promise you had I known before I was hired I might not have taken the job expecially in my last hiring (which is the same company I have worked for now 13 years) because I was not out of work but heavily recruited. It turned out however my bosses boss had informed him he needed a female unix engineer (not that easy to find in 1998) and I was local and qualified but he did not want to hire me.
It did not make for a pleasant nor easy beginning to what has been a great career. It did take me a long amount of time though to get the chip off my shoulder. And about 1.5 years ago I moved over from being the Senior Unix Architect and one of the top AIX virtualization specialist to a management position over a couple of application teams. I was told I was crazy to leave a field in which my gender helped make me unique with my job skills but honeslty have thrived in management and knocked all of our department objectives out of the park. I have two male employees as well as a hand of contractors and they all enjoy working for me.
So yes if I had been told but HR tends to frown on that kind of sh!t ;)
I voted 'other'. Like PPs, discrimination is discrimination. It's not 'reverse' discrimination.
I dislike discrimination of any kind. I agree with the comments that there isn't such a thing as reverse discrimination - it's *all* discrimination! It made me furious when my brother (a white male) was denied entry to a highly gifted magnet school (waaaay long ago now) because he wasn't Asian. My parents had to fight them tooth and nail to get him into that school even though he was well more qualified the many of the kids they were considering.
Personally, I like to EARN the achievements/raises/promotions that I get. Earning them on my own merit gives me a satisfaction of a job very well done, whereas being given something just because I'm female, or pretty, or ugly, or green with purple polka-dots just makes me sad and leaves me feeling like I really was unworthy.
I agree that discrimination is discrimination.
I am white and I grew up in a neighborhood and went to a school where I was the minority. The part of north St. Louis county that I grew up in experienced it's white flight long before I lived there. My school was primarily black and mexican/latino. I know exactly what racism feels like. I know exactly what discrimination feels like. People always assume that white people have never experienced racism, which I find kind of odd.
I find it hard to say that affirmative action is bad one way or the other, but I feel like it's mostly bad. It served it's purpose in the 60s and 70s when women and minorities really weren't getting a chance, but I think that it has outlived it's usefulness. Businesses shouldn't have to meet a quota because all that is going to do is breed resentment in the workforce. Think of it this way, you're a woman who gets a high-up job working for a company... wouldn't you rather there be no doubt that you got this job on your own merit rather than some quota set by an outdated law? I would.
I dislike the term "reverse discrimination," actually I hate it. I think it's a pretty loaded and controversial term. Discrimination is discrimination whether it's happening to the minority or majority. If we're talking race and gender, some programs were put into place to end discrimination, but as we've all seen in the news, sometimes some of these practices result in qualified members of the majority being discriminated against.
As a minority--being both Black and a woman--yes, I have been discriminated against in the past, and I will probably be discriminated against in the future. Add that to the fact that I have an "urban" name (thanks, Dad!). But it's also pretty horrible to have it implied or to be directly accused of getting somewhere solely because of quota policies (not saying anyone has done that here, just in general). In elementary school, my school wanted to skip me a grade ahead, but my mother refused (she was skipped and felt like it got her into trouble hanging out with kids older than her) so the district said I should be placed in a different school's accelerated program. I went from being one of many to one of five (all girls) in the program. One teacher made us sit together and implied we were there solely because of our race. I didn't totally understand it as a child, but as I got older, it hurt.
Discrimination hurts, period.
I've had the same thing happen. One job, my boss told me it was either me or a black guy to keep HR happy. I was so insulted and hurt by that. (And I imagine if I had been a black guy, and been told "It was you or a girl," I'd have felt the same way.)
But you know what? I'm damn good at what I do. I had the education, the experience, drive and dedication, willingness to work the irregular and sometimes very long hours that the job required, and it is extremely doubtful that a man who spent most of his work day looking at porn would've even looked at my resume without the hiring quota. (Oh and that same boss more than once asked me for input on important job-related matters like which escort to call for his lunch break.) In the same job, I had people from other locations refuse to work with me and, if I answered the phone, would request to speak with one of the men.
That wasn't even the worst of them. The worst was the department staffed almost entirely by hot women because the grabby handed boss had a chicks and technology fetish. (And you can pay them 70% less for the same job!)
I'm guessing from your username, we probably work in the same field.
So, I'm over being hurt and disappointed and feeling like I'm not good enough because somewhere a "pain in the ass" HR department nagged a small-minded bigot with his head so far up his privileged ass he can lick his own prostate into hiring an equally or more qualified woman or person of color or person with a disability so the company doesn't look bad.
ETA. Oh, and I didn't vote in the poll because as a descriptor, "reverse discrimination" is worthless. You're either discriminated against or you're not. When people start flinging around phrases like "reverse discrimination" it usually means they've had their feelings hurt by people in a minority group (usually because those people in the minority group aren't praising and applauding the person for their tolerance and open-mindedness).
@Elvis:...as a descriptor, "reverse discrimination" is worthless. You're either discriminated against or you're not. When people start flinging around phrases like "reverse discrimination" it usually means they've had their feelings hurt by people in a minority group (usually because those people in the minority group aren't praising and applauding the person for their tolerance and open-mindedness).
^^This. I won't pretend that I know what it's like for anyone else but myself.
OK...I saw this post this morning and realized I had to speak...
I think it's important to really think about if quotas or affirmative action are just and fair programs. I also think it's important in these discussions to consider those on the other side of this.
Whenever I hear someone talk about affirmative action, they need to know:
* You are insinuating that (in my case, a black woman) was "given" my Master's degree, even though I paid for my own education, went to all my classes, passed my own examinations and oh yeah, excelled and achieved in my course work.
* That my parents and family who supported me through all my years of schooling shouldn't have bothered working double shifts to help me pay for college since someone was going to "give" me my degree and a job in the future, just on the basis that I'm black or a woman.
* That you're insinuating that I'm not an intelligent, hard-working, determined, well-educated individual deserving of all my success.
I also think if these programs really worked, there would be thousands of [fill in the minority] doctors, lawyers, professors, CEOs out there, but you know...life is NOT the "Cosby Show"...
I think many of us are not comparing apples and oranges. When people do it correctly it's two qualified people against each other - and I do place value on diversity in a work place. Yeah, it's frustrating when you're not the one picked. For example, I can't get a government job to save my life because I don't receive veterans preference. However, since I agree that veterans deserve hiring preference to help them get civillian jobs.... I'm okay with it. Yeah, it's frustrating that nothing I can do will give me the same rating as a qualified veteran - but I do think it's fair.
@abbyful: "Different treatment, whether good or bad, is still wrong."
This. Exactly.
I'm a woman with an engineering degree (aka - a minority in that respect) and I would HATE to be given a job because I am a female engineer. I want to earn every job I ever hold as a result of my expereince, merit, skills, abilities, etc.
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