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I'm sorry !! THis is so tough. Don't have sage advice for you - just wanted to give you *HUGS*
I guess you need to ask yourself if you'd rather be with him and not engaged/married, or you'd rather spend the rest of your life without him.
to me, it doesn't sound like this is about you or your relationship at all... he seems pretty open about things and is very communicative w/ you from what you've said here, in my opinion. He probably is literally confused (especially if he doesn't like his job) and has a lot on his plate to think about. I mean, if you have a good job and a house, it's easy to think about marriage.. but if you are wondering about your job and wondering where you want to live and then get questions about marriage (which is huugggeee) i can see how he has a mental roadblock. Give him time! and help him find a job he enjoys, or program of study to get into. If he's content with these things he'll be more than willing to give marriage more thought. If he isn't actively making his life better and still gives you the run around, then i would worry.
A lot of people see marriage as a particular kind of life style so it makes sense to them that they can't get married till they know what kind of life they want/will have. But if he really does not know where life will take him but want you in it - that's IMO exactly the right reason to get married. You should tell him that you don't want or need him to figure out what he is going to do just that he still wants to be with you. That the two of you are going to have wonderful adventures in your life independently and together and no one ever knows where life will take them but you want him to be your partner during all of it. If he was being truthful... you guys should get married.
I mean, I don't know about other girls, but I don't want my guy to marry me because he wants to get married and I look like a good prospect/wife I want him to want to marry me because he always wants to be with me. If you put it that way it might convince him.
I think what I'm about to say is more comment than advice, but either way here goes.
You sound sure of yourself and what you want for your future. You all have been together for a reasonable amount of time and IMO way long enough for him to have figured it out already. If you haven't been pushing, and have been waiting patiently all this time, I just want to say good job! You have hung in there way longer than I would have, but I am pessimistic, untrusting and impatient anyways (bless my hubby's little pea-pickin' heart) which is typically a lethal combo for a relationship so, like I said, I'm mostly just commenting more than advising :P but, I digress. Back to your situation. I do not think it is necessary to have every other aspect of your life mapped out before marriage. It's definately a good idea to be financially secure (which you guys are) and to know each other VERY well (which apparently you do). I really think those are the only necessary prerequisites of marriage. Everything else is a journey. There will always be things that you both want to do & pursue, either together or independently of each other, which is fine. As long as you support each other, that's all that counts. It sounds like you are willing to go above and beyond that! He should be grateful to have someone like you, who is grounded in her feelings for him and able to support his future dreams. I honestly don't know what his holdup is, but due to the length of your relationship, I will agree with you that it sounds mostly like an excuse to buy himself more time. I don't know the details of your relationship, everything you've experienced together, etc, but in my opinion he's had tons of time. You have a life too, and if he can't give you more of a commitment after 4.5 years, as heartbreaking as it is, you might need to move on. Have another talk with him, be upfront and honest. Anything that you might have held back from him in the other conversation, you might want to go ahead and get out there. Give him a chance to really speak his mind and listen to everything he says, no matter how small. He might not know how to communicate his actual feelings in a straightforward way. Guys aren't always the best at that ;)
Good luck in all that you do. I hope things work out the way you want them to!
I thought this might be helpful to you if you haven't already seen it.
http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/mr-bees-three-step-plan-and-backup-plan-for-getting-engaged
@ Mrs. DG - she tried that already ;)
"I also just want to say that after following mr. bee's plan for about 2 or 3 weeks this is the convo that ensued. I had been keeping way busy by working night shifts, going out with friends, spending long weekends at my parent's house and avoiding marriage talk."
I am so sorry... I don't know how I missed that except that I didn't read as closely as I should have at the end.
One thing I have learned is that until most men feel somewhat settled in their plan for the future, they have a hard time envisioning the next step in their relationship. I hope you are able to find a solution that gives you some peace!
I honestly can understand your boyfriend's POV. Marriage didn't really get on my radar until I only had a year of school left and a good job lined up.
I think a come to Jesus talk may be in order, though. You want to be with him. But you need a serious commitment. You are willing, nay, want to be there for the changes he will inevitably make as he finds out more about what he wants his life to look like. You want to go for the ride...but as his wife.
Keep in mind, though, that if you say this you are actually making a huge commitment to him, one you have to stand by. Are you really willing to move? Are you really willing to be the sole breadwinner? Are you really willing to delay having children? Are you really willing to run through your whole savings and take on significant debt? Those are the roads his journey may take you on.
If you are honestly ready for that, let him know, and let him know that what you need to do these things is the commitment. I think it is a fair exchange.
Can you give us a bit more context on how this conversation came up? Did he bring it up while you guys were just hanging out together?
I can see both sides of the story. As a woman, I know it is frustrating to doubt whether you are the one in his mind. I have wondered myself plenty of times. On the other hand, I can completely understand him wanting to find himself and establish himself in the world before getting married. I am on weddingbee because I love weddings, and I'd love to be married to the man I'm with eventually, but I want to establish myself in this world first, or at least know where I'm headed. That does not mean that he loves you any less, or that he's jerking you around.
Secondly, most men, it seems, put a ton of pressure on themselves to be the provider of a family. If he doesn't feel secure in his own job and future, how can he expect to feel secure enough to help provide for you as well. Even if you are equal providers, I still feel that men feel this pressure.
I don't know if any of these things apply to you and your man, but these are just some things that came to mind as I was reading your post. Good luck with everything!
4.5 years is a LONG time to be together without thinking you are gonna marry that person! to be brutally honest, you shouldn't even have had to have that conversation with him last night. when a guy loves you he wants to be with you no matter what other things are going on in your lives and you just know you'll make it work. i used to be in a similar situation with my ex. we were together for 3 years and sure he cared about me, but everything was about him- HIS job- HIS school- i was never the #1 priority. and you know what? it was really hard but i had to break up with him for what seemed like no good reason. i just didn't want to be with someone who wasn't as into our relationship as i was and didn't care enough about me to seal the deal! and shortly after our break up i met my fiance! it sounds like the next step for the two of you is obviously marriage- and if he doesn't see it that way and isn't jumping at the chance to have you all to himself for the rest of his life? you deserve better.
When did people start having perfect lives before they got married? You know poor people with nothing get married all the time. I think your friend is right, time to move out and move on. Of course you love him but what if he never knows what he wants to do? Are you okay with waiting longer? There is nothing wrong with adjusting your life accordingly if marriage is important to you.
I think your friend is right. He can come up with a million reasons to keep putting it off and keep stringing you along.. but the bottom line is that even after investing 4 and a half years of your lives together he STILL doesn't know what he wants! How can he expect you to be okay with putting your goals on the back burner indefinitely while he is able to complete his own? That isn't equality... that's just about HIM.
I posted something so similar to this about 2 months ago. My SO and I were in an extremely similar place where he was more uncertain about his future and mine. We talked about everything openly and honestly, which sounds like what you and your SO did. If he is saying that he wants to be with you, then he does want to be with you. All you can do is support each other. Make sure that you're honest with him and express that while you understand his personal uncertainty, that marriage is something that is a non-negotiable for you. About a month after my SO and I had this discussion, he bought my ring. He still hasn't given it to me yet, but the fact is that he bought it and we are openly talking about marriage.
Hopefully that sheds a little light and gives you a little hope!
it all comes down to what you want and what your heart tells you. no one's going to have the right answer for you--only YOU have the right answer for yourself. reevaluate the relationship and answer the question, "is it worth it?". that's always helped me make tough decisions like this. good luck and keep your head up!
I am confused as to why everyone's telling her to run! I mean, 4.5 years is a while, but she's only 24. I support having a frank conversation, but think that the bias of this wedding website is clouding the responses. It's a long time, but it's not like she's missing out on her child bearing years or something. They both love each other and want to be together - it just sounds to me like he wants to get his ducks in a row before marriage. Sure, everybody can get married, rich or poor etc, but it's a lot easier to plan a life together when everything else isn't all jammed up. My good friends got married last spring, and they'd been together 6 years. They are now 28 / 29 and very happy. While I loved loved getting married, at the point that my DH actually proposed, I was at the point where I realized "It's not an engagement ring or wedding that is making our relationship - it's because we love each other and want to be together". I honestly became 100% content with our bond and stopped thinking engagements, b/c it can be a real waste of mental resources. Then he proposed - pressure was off, I guess. For the record, we'd been together 3.5 years when he popped the question. We are also a couple years older.
I have nothing new to add but I just wanted to say that I agree with Melissa 100%.
Just so you know, in October of 2008 my fiance and I had the same conversation. He knew he loved me, but didn't feel secure enough in other plans to propose. He ended up moving out of state (we had been living together) and I needed to finish school before I could join him. 2 Months after he moved, he had an epiphany moment and went straight to pick out a ring...and he proposed a month after that (March 2009). He tells me he realized that even though he still didn't feel 100% confident about everything else in his life, he knew that he wanted me to be his wife. If YOU feel that he is not just using it as a line and really is confused, then I would suggest giving him some time and space. I BELIEVE ME - I know that is not remotely easy. Oh - and both your bf and my fiance are the same age - as are you and I. :) Maybe it's an age thing?
I'm not sure that the right answer is to run, but his reason for not getting married is something that may not go away in a year or two or five. That's what really worries me. Some people are lucky enough to find a dream career and know exactly what they'd like to do career-wise, where they want to live, etc. The majority of people do not have it figured out. And if he's so unsure now, even though he is financially secure and has a job, who's to say he's going to have his life figured out anytime soon?
I completely understand waiting to finish school, to save up money, etc. Those are definite goals. But waiting until someone has their life figured out is too vague, in my opinion. I'm not saying you need to leave him. But I would talk about his mindset that you need to be completely fulfilled in other aspects of life before getting married. Help him understand that this is unrealistic without arguing or pressuring him. And then give him time to really get this.
By the way, as for my own experience, I just graduated college and am working in a job I don't like. I have no idea where my career will take me or where I want to settle down. FI likes his job, but also doesn't know his long-term plans. This has made zero impact on our decision to get married. We are financially stable and independent from our parents. And we want to be together forever. It's as simple as that.
i agree with Melissa, and i also want to add that my fi had a very, very similar reaction to marriage/children/future/etc conversations before he was ready. he would get really, really upset, but he was clear that his uncertainty was stemming not from a fear of commitment to me, because he saw his future absolutely with me and as a married couple, but because he was unhappy with his job and where he is in his career. i don't know exactly what changed, that made him be okay with moving forward and getting married even though his job hasn't changed, but it just took him a few months.
Hmm.. If marriage is that important to you, I don't think staying with him while he's in this limbo period is a good idea. I hate the term 'stringing along', but that's kind of what he would be doing to you if you don't stick up for yourself. I'm just thinking of the possibility that you stay with him and he doesn't change his mind, things won't get better for you they will get worse. And sometimes experiencing life without each other makes one person a little more okay with the others plan - like you might decide marriage isn't more important than being with him and he might decide marriage is important to him as he wants to be with you.
My FI went through a similar limbo period and it was hard for both of us. His parents are divorced and he had a hard time getting comfortable with the idea of marriage. I told him not to move in with me (he always wanted to) if he wasn't planning on proposing shortly after. I didn't want to be living together wondering if we'd ever get married. He made the decision to move in, but pretended like we never had the discussion about getting engaged, hoping I would forget about it. Once I realized that I kicked him out. He thought I was bluffing, I wasn't. I was so fed up, I knew I'd rather break up than be 'strung along' anymore with him wafting. He spent 1 afternoon looking at apartments then immediately went out and bought me a ring. It just took a few hours of him imagining the possibility of life without me and it totally freaked him out. It gave him a new perspective that screaming at him about getting engaged would never accomplish.
My point is stand up for yourself in a healthy way. If you can't go on anymore while he's wafting, maybe you need to spend some time apart to figure out what you both really want. It's not good if one person is really upset with the plan, it's unhealthy.
Can the people who understand his point of view explain it to me?
What do you think marriage is? I'm not being snarky, but what is it about marriage that requires you knowing anything except that you want to be with someone always?
The only logical way job uncertainty etc. makes sense as a reason not to get married is if you think that if you end up in job X or circumstance Y you don't want to be with this person so than marrying them is dependant on your life being setteled. That makes sense. Otherwise I just don't see the logic.
I see other people agreeing with it so there must be something I'm missing.
I only want to be with you if I have a certain type of life because you fit that life but not otherwise is not an evil point of view. But I would want to be loved more than that.
To @Arachna's point - My FI was in a job he HATED when we got engaged. It was really bad, his boss was extremely mean and snarky to him all the time, he hated what he did every day and wasn't doing anything to leave and also 'didn't know what he wanted to do with his job situation'. While I was supportive and understanding, I only was to a certain degree then I got fed up and told him that I couldn't keep wiping his tears every day, he has to take responsibiltiy and DO something about it b/c it was bringing us both down and one of his many excuses why he wasn't ready to get engaged. I did not accept it as an excuse either and did not agree with the logic that us getting engaged was dependant on him being happy with his job situation.
Surprise, surprise, getting engaged gave him the drive he needed to make a change. He proposed to me and we found a job listing online that he applied for. He got the job about 2 weeks later and left his horrible company and never looked back.
I want to thank ALL of you for such great advice and encouraging words.... I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond... After the first conversation we had on Wednesday night... I was really upset. I was feeling like we were on two very different paths and that I should start packing up my things. Last night he came home from work and said that everything from the night before had not been resolved and that we needed to try again. (@ mr bee... I had actually started the conversation the night before... so the fact that he initiated this one was a relief to me). He realized that the things he was saying did not come out the way he wanted them to. After a LONG talk (but imo, a productive one) he told me that he DOES want to get married, and that after thinking about it, all those other things don't necessarily need to be in order before we make that step. He sometimes takes a while to process things, so I guess sleeping on it made him realize that. I just told him that it was important to me that I wasn't pressuring him into anything... that this was a decision he was making on his own. I want it to be a mutual decision to get married and not something he is doing because I'm threatening to leave if he doesn't. Marriage to me is not an ultimatum!!! I told him that I loved him and I didn't want to break up with him and maybe if he is unsure about marriage, his future, etc. then maybe I will just move out for a bit so we can have some space to figure things out.
He was really adamant that that was not what he wanted. He apologized for making it seem like he never wanted to get married, or wasn't ready yet.. he just started getting overwhelmed with all the other decisions that he has to make about his future. I understand that and I feel much calmer about the situation. I told him I respect his fears, but if he isn't willing to talk more openly with me about marriage in the next few months I will think about moving out -- not necessarily leaving him, but just giving myself (and him!) some space. He in turn, told me that he respects that decision.
So I want to thank everyone again for all of your advice.... it helped calm me down a bit and give me some perspective. I just want to say that as far as me telling him I will support him with a career change/going back to school etc.... I do not think that he is not being selfish because last year he supported me when I made the decision to get my master's degree. It was a difficult time for us but he knew it was what I really wanted to do, so I want to return that support if he decides in the future that's what he wants to do. I just did not see how getting married would interfere with that (and I still don't!). Although I'm still a little shaken up from the past couple days, I'm deff feeling much better about everything. Thanks again bees.... I would have REALLY lost it if I didn't have you to talk to!! :)
Sounds like you guys had a reallly good productive talk :) Glad you feel better!
i'm glad you're feeling better!
and @ Arachna-- in terms of what I said about my fi, and how it may be related to Krissy's bf's point of view-- in my situation, my fi's job insecurity, and how that stalled him in being ready to think about marriage, had nothing to do with how much he loved me. as i understand his perspective, it was more "omg, i love this woman and see our future together and want to get married, but i'm not the 'grown-up' i thought i would be when i always imagined getting married because i don't have the career i assumed i'd always have, and if we get married we'll have kids and i don't make 'enough' to have kids, ahhhh scary scary i don't want to think about this anymore because it makes me feel bad about myself." when my fi, like a lot of other people, gets scared, he freezes and wants to just bury his head in the sand, and so it was hard for him to accept his job situation and move forward with the other aspects of his life, since it wasn't what he had always assumed would be the order. however, nothing changed about his job situation before he proposed-- he just needed time to be able to accept that he could get married and still continue searching for a better job, etc. of course, that's the rational response, and what a lot of other posters are saying, but fear isn't rational, but definitely is a real obstacle that can get in the proposal's way. and btw, my fi and i had been together about 3 years when he was still scared--he proposed after 3 yrs, 4 months
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Oh man, this has been one rough week to be a waiting bee! I wasn't sure if I should even post this here, or under relationships, or under emotional... There is just so much going on!! Last night boyfriend and I had one of the most serious talks I think we have ever had. He basically told me that the reason he has not proposed yet is because he doesn't know what he wants to do with his life. He doesn't know in which direction he would like his career to go, he doesn't know where he would like to settle down, etc. And even though he thinks about it a lot, he doesn't have any answers. He hasn't proposed yet because he feels like he should have that figured out first. I'm not sure what he is trying to figure out. He HAS a job, we HAVE an apartment and we HAVE savings. I told him that as far as our relationship is concerned.... we don't need to know where we are going to buy a house or what he might like to do in the future in order to get married. Right now he may not have his dream job, but we are financially secure and I told him that if he chooses to change careers or go back to school I will totally support him in whatever he decides. But I don't see why we have to put all thoughts of marriage on the back burner until he figures it out. He's 28, I'm 24...we have been together for 4.5 years and I have been living on my own since I was 18.
He gave me some line about how much he loved me and that he didn't know where his future would go, but that he wanted me in it. It just sounded so fake and stupid. It sounded like what someone would say to their SO if they were proposing, not if they were telling them that they weren't ready to get married. I had always thought that we were on the same page, through all these years together I thought we always wanted the same thing. And now he's telling me that he doesn't know what he wants. I love him. I really do. He's my everything. But marriage is important to me -- and he knows that! I don't think it's unreasonable that after so many years of dating/living together, etc. that I would want to get married. He tells me he wants me in his life, but he won't commit.
I need advice big time girls. I don't have a lot of girlfriends to talk to -- although my best friend did tell me that it's time for me to get outttttttttt of this relationship because he is going to continue to give me excuses and I will never get the committment from him that I want. I also just want to say that after following mr. bee's plan for about 2 or 3 weeks this is the convo that ensued. I had been keeping way busy by working night shifts, going out with friends, spending long weekends at my parent's house and avoiding marriage talk.
I feel so sad, so heartbroken and so confused right now. I don't know if I'm over reacting, being impatient and not understanding of his fears or if I'm just letting myself be strung along. I am such a wreck and everything that I seemed sure of -- a life and family together with him -- seems to be slipping away.