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Did your husband mention the lunch to you before or after she left the Facebook comment?
It is good that he mentioned speaking with her without you having to confront him, however I wouldn't let him off the hook just yet. He lied to you in that it was a "last minute thing"... he wanted you to think he didn't have a chance to invite you along. The truth is, he had plenty of time to invite you and chose not to, for whatever reason.
This woman doesn't have to like you, but your husband should set clear boundaries with her. Your are his wife and he should make it clear to this woman that, as a friend, she should respect his marriage to you.
She makes me want to vomit all over the place. Projectile-style. Everywhere.
i want to tell you to do one thing and handle this "maturely" but I wouldn't, lol..I know what I'd do. I'd tell him not to talk to that ridiculous, manipulative bitch if he knew what was best for him. Because it's time to move on. You've left the church. It's a weird church. Cult-like. Moving on and NOT maintaining ties would be the best way to put it out of your minds.
He doesn't OWE this lady a reason WHY you guys left this "church" or what he feels his role in his own marriage is. I don't see why he feels the need to justify his own thoughts/feelings. She's trying to suck him back in or something.
Even if DH's best friend in the whole entire universe treated me crappy (let alone a woman I care nothing about), I'd expect him to stand up for me and say, "hey that's not cool". I certainly wouldn't feel very comfortable hanging out with anyone who vehemently hates my own husband. How awkward!
I say no contact. I don't care who this lady is, that he used to live with her...from an outsider's perspective (easier said than done, i know...), my spidey senses are going haywire and something just doesn't feel right about the situation from what I've gathered.
I agree that he needs to set boundaries. I don't think that she should be bad mouthing you to anyone and he should not put up with that as your husband. As your husband, he should defend you from people who say bad things about you. You and her do not have to be friends, but he should make sure that she remains civil.
For someone who claims to be so spiritual, this woman is going out of her way to insert herself in the middle of something that God put together. She has openly disrespected you and from everything you typed here and in your previous thread, your husband SAYS that he has a problem with it, but his ACTIONS don't back that up. He is YOUR husband, his FIRST responsibility should be to you and to the health of your marriage. As long as this woman still has his ear, she will remain a threat to your marriage. As painful as it may be for him, your husband needs to sever ALL ties with this woman. Because if she can't respect the choice that he made to marry you, then she doesn't respect his choices and feels that he NEEDS her to tell him the "right" way to live.
I would NEVER stand for somebody constantly bashing my FI...regardless of who it is. I am going to say something and let it be known that if it continues, my relationship with that person will not. Especially when the bashing and disrespect stems from a decision you and your husband made together....about something as personal as religion and how you as a family choose to worship. This heffah has a lot of nerve.
I read your other post but didn't end up commenting because I hate criticizing religion because I always feel like it's going to come off wrong, but really didn't like the sound of the home church by the time you two left it. I attended Lutheran and non-denominational church for 17 years before I came to terms with what I believed, and they ALL said the same thing - that it was important to find your spiritual home and make a community there, but that choice was between you and God, and no one else (i.e., them) could know what was right.
This woman sounds manipulative. She sounds like she knows that she has to separate the two of you in order to really play at his emotions. Because if you were there, you could step up and say, "no, THIS is what's best for us, what we agreed on, etc" - so she sets up a lunch with him, talks about how long she's been married, what she didn't know when she was in your place, blah blah blah.
And I agree with you - your husband is not meaning to send the message that she can treat you however she wants, but he is. Men don't usually think the worst of people like women do (in my experience) which can lead to second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth chances... you get the idea. At some point you have to say that you can forgive without wanting be further involved with someone.
I think you should talk to him about what your goals are for your marriage spiritually and otherwise. I'm not sure what you believe about the husband making decisions for the wife, but it would drive me crazy, especially if it gets to the point where he's not even telling you the situation beforehand. I know plenty of Christian marriages that are truly partnerships and I think maybe you need to come from that angle when you talk to him? I think it'd be beneficial if you told him what your ideal outcome to this situation would be, why it hurt you, what you're afraid of, etc. And then go from there depending on what he says. But definitely address it. Good luck!
I agree with EJS - even if it were his best friend, if the person said something horrible about me or showed this type of behavior toward me, he would stand up and tell him to quit, at a minimum. I know there is more to it, but you are a family and he is your husband and he should support you and stand up for you - you're not out in left field or being demanding. you're being reasonable, and this church lady is manipulative, gross, and out of line. ......
generally i believe that if friends are rude to my fi, then they aren't really friends worth keeping, and vice versa. i had a couple close friends who i really depended on a lot while my fi and i were long-distance, and who were incredibly supportive to me, but then treated him like crap when he met them. like, not even acknowledging him as he tried to make small talk. as soon as i realized how they treated them, i stopped making any effort to maintain the friendship. that's a waaay less extreme example than what you're experiencing, but still i think it's the same answer--if they treat you like crap and try to manipulate your husband against you, their friendship definitely isn't worth maintaining, no matter the history
Juneenee -- he mentioned it before she left the post. In fact, she left the post while we were in the midst of arguing about it. Heh. I'm not sure if my husband has seen it yet, but maybe it proves my point that she plans to stay in contact?
ejs4y8 -- your first line made me laugh out loud, for real. Thank you! And that's how I feel, too. I guess there's a part of me that feels guilty insisting, though, because I prefer to be a peachmaker, not a destroyer of relationships (and I remember the verse in Romans about "For your part, live at peace with everyone" or something like that....I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment). But this feels very unhealthy, so there has to be boundaries, right? As for him owing her a reason, I think that's just leftover residue from his time there, because they emphasize talking about everything, especially with the leaders. And he just got an e-mail from the head of the house church network (the one in authority over D.) explaining that there's blessing and ongoing communication when there's been communication before leaving and a person leaves "honorably." I think it made him feel like he'd left unhonorably by not explaining everything so he wanted to do what was "honorable" in their sight. And really, I think what they think still affects him because they were parent figures to him (you know, like how some people never outgrow wanting to make their parents proud and feeling like crap if they can't, no matter how far away they move).
MissAsB -- she denied badmouthing him (she claimed that the girl who I heard it from is a habitual liar). Could be true. But I doubt it. And it doesn't change her attitude towards me, regardless of whether she verbalizes is to other people.
My pastor has preached that the bond of husband & wife should not be interfered with by any outside influence and that includes the church & any church activates and I completely agree. If this woman truly feels offended by you (and honestly I don't think she has any reason to be offended, BUT even is she does), it is her duty as a Christian to forgive you and if she has no forgiveness in her heart than your husband has no reason to be contact someone like that. What I would do is look for direct scripture to support your argument, she can say what ever she wants but if she is arguing with the direct word of God (and anyone who has started their own church should certainly not have a problem with reading the Bible) than she has a problem with God & not with you. His bond with you & the vows he made to you come before everyone in this world. I am so sorry to hear that you are having these troubles, I will definitely pray for you!
We have a strict no putting up with someone insulting the spouse rule.
It's happened to both of us in underhanded way and so we address it, not in a scolding way, but a definite I'm on my spouses side on this one (smile). We're a team and any issues we have we address with each other, not with some random person who makes it clear they dislike our spouse, that's just toxic to a relationship.
JamaicaBride -- I think my husband really doesn't agree with it, but doesn't want to cause drama, so he stays passive about it. I don't think he really understands the message he's sending by that. It's interesting, because when we were engaged, she told us how glad she was that I was so submissive and let him lead because she knew that the first girl he was engaged to wouldn't have let him be the leader in the family :-P. I wonder sometimes if she feels like our marriage is valid and worthy of respect if I'm not acting in the way she thinks a wife should act (ie. being submissive).
lilyfaith -- I agree. I think she's purposefully staying in contact with him because she feels like he'd be easier to manipulate, because obviously I'm not standing for that (though that could be my jaded view, too). And yeah, I don't think my husband means to send that message, he just doesn't understand the non-verbal communication so much. I know I need to forgive her (working on that) but I also believe that there can be forgiveness without reconciliation and sometimes it's even necessary to cut off contact. I think he doesn't see this as that extreme though because the manipulation is subtle (he said that if she was openly trying to get him to come back to the church or trying to divide our marriage he'd cut off contact in a minute). And thankfully, we have been talking a lot about our spiritual goals and do see our marriage as a partnership now (yay God for bringing us to that place!). But I do think we need to talk some more about this particular situation and how it's affecting us. Thanks!
Melissabegins -- thank you! And agreed :-)
finaroo -- I agree. I tried to give an example of how he might feel if things were switched and it was one of our guy friends cutting off contact with him because of offense but staying in contact with me, but he claimed he wouldn't have a problem with it. I think it might be a different story if he actually experienced it, though. But I'm with you, if any of my friends were treating him like that, I'd say something and if it continued I'd step WAY back from that relationship.
Ducks35 -- thank you for the prayers! And I agree with your pastor. So does my husband, actually, he just doesn't see how this is affecting our marriage. He said she even told him yesterday that she'd be okay adding me as a friend again on facebook (but hiding my posts because she knows how to do that now?) but I tried to explain that unless she apologized or made an effort to reconcile, that would seem like a surfacy move to make it look like she had done her part to be civil and the underlying issues and attitudes would still be there. Oh, and interestingly enough, when my husband explained what God had been showing him about marriage and his role as husband she said something alon the lines of "well, I'm not sure I agree with that counsel..." even though it was the counsel of the Holy Spirit, confirmed by several older married men! So she really does have a problem with any word of God that doesn't line up with her beliefs or doesn't lead to her church.
troubled -- that sounds like a good way of approaching it :-). It's what I was trying to express to my husband last night
It sounds like your hubby will come around, especially when you go through these points with him. With men, you just have to be super direct :)
@Melissa - I was about to say the same thing! Hahaha.
To the OP - I'm glad you're trusting your instincts with this one, they seem to be right on. Hopefully he'll be receptive to what you're saying even if he doesn't see all of her little manipulations. Why is it guys never do?
Thanks for the encouragment Melissabegins and lilyfaith! I think he will, too. It may take talking to some other people who aren't involved in the situation. If they agree that continuing a relationship with her would be unhealthy for our marriage, he might realize that it's not just my hurt/anger/bitterness talking.
Um I would want this lady out of his life because she is clearly disrespecting you. Seems like she knows she is causing problems for you two and continues to do it every chance she gets to be in town. I feel like she posted that comment on his facebook to piss you off as a matter of fact and i'd be furious. Its just plain disrespectful and she needs to include you back in their relationship or their relationship needs to be thrown out because you dont deserve to stress out about anything like this, good luck
I agree with all of the posters above. This woman is toxic to your marriage, and it's not healthy for him to stay in contact with her when she has made it clear to both him and you that she doesn't approve of your marriage. Letting your husband know that will hopefully make him come around. If anyone even tried to disrespect my husband to me, I would certainly let them know that it's not goint to be tolerated, and they had better find someone else to sound off to. I would hope that my husband would do the same for me.
Keep us updated after you talk to him about this again! I really hope that he sees how toxic this woman is to your marriage, and if he knows what's good for him, he'll sever all ties.
She already admitted to him that she doesn't think that his marriage should be his first priority. She's told him that she is not willing to have any sort of contact with you. This is a no brainer. He needs to stand up for you and tell her that if she is unwilling to accept his wife, and does not think that his marriage should be his number one priority, then she is not someone that he is willing to have in his life. If she really "loves him lots!" then she would support the things that are important to him, namely: his marriage.
tammyt112 -- that could be true. It certainly did piss me off, whether or not she intended it to :-P. But that's part of the problem with them staying friends; it still hurts every time I see that she's commented (which hasn't been often, but still....). Maybe when I've truly worked through the process of forgiveness that'll feel different, but maybe not.
2PeasinaPod -- She hasn't necessarily said that she doesn't approve of our marriage, just the way we approach marriage and our roles as husband and wife. Which could be the same thing, I suppose :-P. And I'll definitely keep you updated :-).
greenleafmountain -- I don't know that she'd say his marriage shouldn't be his first priority (she hasn't really said one way or another). They stress the importance of marriage, but moreso the importance of being in "kingdom order" in your marriage (ie. the husband leading and the wife submitting) so she believes that should be priority. Her son (who was also at this lunch yesterday) did say that while a husband should lay down his life for his wife, he shouldn't lay down his life or his calling (implying that to leave their church -- and to do what his wife wanted -- would equal giving up who and what he was supposed to be). So I guess in that sense, they believe that "marriage" (but not the wife) should be priority. But yeah, I get what you're saying and agree, especially with the part about her supporting the things that are important to him and where God's leading him if she really cared :-)
About this submitting thing.....it concerns me. I think one thing that a lot of places in the world have in common that are havens for bad is the oppression of women and I'm so glad you're standing your ground against it.
While a marriage should not be headstrong battle of will, the focus of the Bible seems to treat marriage as an equal union where men and women have the ability to thrive by uniting the strengths of two into one.
Some examples follow of the powerful role women play (even over men), especially during Jesus’ ministry:
- A woman was chosen to help bring Jesus into the world.
- Women were chosen to see the empty tomb and deliver the good news of the risen Christ, while men disputed their testimony.
- Jesus chose a woman to spread the Word to the Samaritans
- “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28)
“She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.” (Proverbs 31:16)
- "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one.” (Mark 10:6-9)
- “Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work: If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up! Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm. But how can one keep warm alone? Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves.” (Eccl. 4:9-12)
- “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it” (Ephesians 5:25)
- “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve” (Mark 10:45)
Jesus did not seem to have a gender bias in whom he chose to lead, teach and spread the Word. Mary literally delivered the Word to the world.
There are passages in the letters that appear sexist and I've read a lot about how the words aren't translated right or just the opinion of the author or whatever but when two things appear in contradition in the Bible such as "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence", I go with Jesus's teachings because he certainly didn't have women be silent.
@troubled- I like the way you think! ;)
For someone who talks about how submissive women should be all the time, this woman seems very assertive herself. I also think it's pretty bold of them to assume that they know for sure that their church is his calling.
Good luck OP. I'm just glad you guys have geographic distance on your side. Things will get easier in time for him, I think.
super bizarre, because i had almost the exact situation happen with me last summer! same deal...this "mother" figure from my guy's church/work coming between us and attacking me and our relationship...i completely feel your pain and frustration!
i will definitely be praying that he makes the right decision. purging your lives of toxic people, such as this woman, will bring so much more peace and happiness to your relationship!
Wow I'm sorry :(. It sounds like a "home church" that one of my old really good friends started going to. It was actually a cult. I'm glad you guys don't go there anymore :).
Honestly, I think that woman is WAY out of line. I don't think you're making a big deal. I believe a woman is to submit to her husband & be led by him. But submission isn't acting like a robot & doing everything he says without thought or care. At the same time, the husband is to love his wife. Not just make her do whatever he wants. Its not the husband leading & the wife submitting. The husband does lead, but its moreso the husband LOVING & the wife submitting. Anyways, that was kinda a sidetrack to what I wanted to say...
I think you & your husband should talk about this again. Say how you feel about how you want him to stand up for you & that you will stand up for him. He married you, you come first, you come before others & especially that other woman. The Bible says the man leaves his parents to be with his wife (I'm sorry, I'm really bad at paraphrasing/ scripture location but I COULD find it if you'd like). Not that you never see your parents again, but you're away from their authority/covering. You are your own family. I really hope that woman leaves the two of you alone.
deifnitely a weird situation. but I think you shouldn't stop him from being friends with her still especially if she was such a big part in his life. but he should definitely address it with her. sometimes grown people can be so immature. But you dont want to cause any problems with you and him by asking him to not talk to her anymore. I say just talk about it and ask him to talk to her. and then put it all in God's hands. He knows what he's doing. :)
It sounds to me like this woman is manipulative of your husband. I don't think he doesn't love you. I do think he doesn't have an idea of what proper Christian boundaries are. Buy him a book on the topic.
Oh, and stop fighting that woman. The more you address the issue with her, the more she understands she bothers you, and the more she will try to p*ss you off.
Do question your husband. Ask him how he would feel if he were in your shoes, getting that treatment. He might have a change of heart.
The solution is in your husband's heart, not hers, not yours.
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Yesterday I wrote this post:
http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/so-upset-i-feel-sickam-i-making-a-big-deal-out-of-nothing
Here's the update:
So last night my husband finally mentioned that he had talked to this woman, D. He brought it up himself, which I was glad of, and we talked about the conversation. He said that there were some loose ends from us leaving the church that he felt like he needed to clear up. Particularly that he needed to explain more fully what he was thinking at the time. They talked about what he's come to believe about his role as a husband (basically, that as the head of the house, he needs to make decisions based on what's best for both of us, not just what he wants to do, and that he's called to "lay down his life for his wife as Christ layed down his life for the church"). She disagreed and they had to agree to disagree on that point. She also told him that she'd deleted me as a friend on facebook because she got offended whenever she saw posts from me and she didn't want to see them anymore (she'd told me in her e-mail that she wasn't offended...).
I told him that I was kind of hurt that he hadn't mentioned it to me and he said it happened kind of last minute (not exactly, but fine) and that he thought that he had mentioned something to me a few days earlier about maybe getting together with her (he didn't, but he could honestly have thought that he did). He also said that he would have been welcome but that it would have been too hard to find a time when both of us could be there because she had a busy schedule (it didn't seem like he really tried, but ok). Although I think it was still somewhat deliberate that he didn't tell me beforhand, I'm mostly ok with it now because he did tell me about it voluntarily and shared what they talked about.
But here's my dilemna now:
I really don't want him to stay in contact with her (or moreso, allow her to stay in contact with him) if she refuses to reconcile with me. It doesn't seem appropriate or healthy. We ended up getting into a big argument about it.
He thinks I'm trying to make him take on my offense and that cutting off contact won't help anything, only forgiving her will. He claims that they rarely have any contact anymore anyways (which has been true for the past month or so) so it's not really any different than where I'm at with her. He says that I know he doesn't agree with what she's doing (which I do) and that should be enough.
I still feel like it's something he needs to address with her, though, regardless of whether it leads to cutting off friendship or not. I feel like her being friends with him and treating him like a son (saying things like "Love ya lots!!") while cutting off all contact with me and refusing to even talk through the issues (saying things like "I do not feel it is needful to pursue this line of discussion in light of our commitment level to each other") undermines our marriage and the fact that, though yes, we're two people, we're ONE FAMILY who have chosen to join our lives together. I think it's inappropriate for her to make that separation (especially as a woman and a "mother" figure). And I feel like by not saying anything, my husband is essentially sending her the message that it's ok, that she can treat me however she wants and he's going to keep his hands off the issue.
There's also a part of me that just wants to know that my husband is with me, that he's going to protect me and defend me. I mean, I'm a big girl, and in general I'm pretty independent (and I'm not wanting him to get in a fist fight with anyone or anything like that :-P), but it would mean a lot to me if he'd stick up for me, particularly considering how much hurt and attack has come from them (all towards me, not my husband). Even if he could just verbally set boundaries, like saying, "I'm not okay with you doing _______ and treating my wife like _______. If this continues or happens again, we're going to have to step back from the relationship, because I won't tolerate people treating her that way."
But maybe that's wishful thinking?
To top it off, she left this post on his facebook wall last night: "Hey [my husband's name] thanks for a great time this afternoon! Just like old times when we used to talk for hours!! Love ya lots!!"
Bleh.
So what do you think? Am I overreacting and being vengeful by asking him to cut off contact, or at least address it with her? Should I just let it go?