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We've been discussing the blocking of Tattoo and then the subsequent shut down of a number of threads in the past 24 hours. I wrote a post on another thread that I think deserves some more discussion and thought with the Hive. Here is what I wrote:
I am a big proponent of "sunlight is the best disinfectant", and I think we came by the banning decision in a very difficult way. No one wanted it to happen, and everyone has different reactions... human reactions... to it happening.
In addition, what you may not know is that in reaction to the banning, groups started forming on Facebook to talk about the mods and stir up more trouble... so the heavy handed moderation may have been in response to that as well.
I'm happy to keep the threads that are on the boards now open, and if you all like, we can review and discuss the other ones and reinstate them if that's what the hive wants.
In hindsight, I think that rather than close down commentary, we should have had these tough conversations together with the community and come up with solutions together. How do you all think we should proceed in light of these new attacks? How do you want to proceed with respect to the deleted threads?
Thanks for this and everything else you and the other MOD's do. I think sometimes people forget that you all are volunteers and do this out of the good of your hearts!
Thanks again!
@Mrs. DG: Just wanted to say thanks! I've watched the fiasco over the last couple of days and just love that you're opening up the forum to really get some things resolved.. thanks for being awesome!
I think that a lot of the controversy over bannings/deletions stems from the fact that, when asked WHY someone was banned or a thread was deleted, the basic policy is simply restated (instead of actually pointing out WHAT about a specific thread, for example, violated the ToS). In many cases, it's difficult to pinpoint exactly what went wrong, so maybe some public discussions before a thread is locked down with a vague explanation would be helpful.
ETA: In other words, don't just post the ToS. Interpret them for users within the context of the offending thread.
@Mrs. DG: I think maybe we need a refresher on what kind of behavior is expected on the boards. Maybe in the form of a sticky post...?
And I think that there should be more specific rules on how one gets banned. Like... first offense warning, second offense suspension, and third offense banning. Something along those lines but not necessarily that strict. ;-)
I don't see the harm in posting scathing general opinions... or even scathing opinions toward people in our RL. (Which is what one member did.) When you start making cracks at religion and political views... that's when it becomes a problem. We're all adults here. It seems that some need to put on their big girl panties.
And if profanity is the issue, then maybe some filters need to be added that automatically block the offending words out.
@Mrs Grape: I agree too... and I think that we need to work hard to make it clear when we absolutely do need to do something... but I also think we need to be judicious before taking actions and only acting when it really needs to happen and letting you all know the "why?" behind it, insomuch as that is possible.
I appreciate the suggestions! Please keep them coming.
@Mrs Grape: Agreed.
Plus wouldn't it be easier when someone is banned to put a sort of official "username has been banned" sticky thread? Then everyone knows what happened and get the facts straight up as they are. That way we wont have multiple "Omg so and so was banned?!" threads and people who are completely clueless. I think the reason these things get so out of hand is that nobody knows the full story and they all want to know what's going on.
I'm fairly new to the Bee and this was my first time experiencing major drama. I'm guessing that this doesn't happen very often, so people really lack awareness about the procedures and the measures that need to be implemented in de-escalating matters such as this. ( AKA get everyone to act like adults)
We all too often use emotion when trying to tame emotion which never works. Fair is like the color grey, it is interpreted with a spectrum and lacks the clarity of black in white.
@Stellar Magnitude: Yes "big girl panties" needed. Just because one person is offended by a thread or post doesn't mean it is an offensive post all together.
Sent from my Android
im so upset and disgusted by what is going on lately in the bee.... I don't even know what to say! In going to have a glass of wine with my FI and post on here tomorrow.What I will say is that there needs to be some serious changes made around here.
I could not agree more with everything being said here.
Every time something like this happens I fear me or someone else who is remotely outspoken may be banned because they have a little more outgoing, abrasive personality and others can't take it.
First of all, thank you for doing this and love the title :)
I think *many* members were unhappy at the deleting of threads and any discussion of the banned posters and the surrounding events. I think it only made it flare-up more because then it came across as no one is allowed to talk about this.
I can't speak for the other Bees, but I think the threads that have been reopened are the right ones, and in allowing the discussion, things have greatly calmed down.
In all honesty, I feel that Navy_Wife should be reinstated. I feel what she did was out of frustration at not being able to discuss and/or get answers to what was talked about. If it's true that she did not get a warning, maybe reinstatement under 'probabtion' could be a possibility? She's also pregnant, so pregnant hormones should get a bye ;)
I'd say the same for Miss Tattoo but I feel that is maybe not in the realm of possibility. At this point, the majority of the Hive is aware of what happened and if it's know that the mods let them back in and they did something 'wrong' again, there shouldn't be any controversy if they were banned.
I don't really know either of them, but I enjoyed their posts and it makes me very sad that they are gone.
Sorry for the long post but I really appreciate you listening to us re-opening some of the threads. I'm sure this has been a trying couple days for you as well and thank you for trying to make the site a better place for everyone!
@Mrs. DG: I posted this on the "missing miss tattoo" thread, but thought it might get more attention here...
I appreciate your input, and all that the mods and admins do for us all here... But I think the part that is bothering everyone is the fact that we never felt that she crossed the line... and "the line" is very much personal discretion of the mods BASED on the ToS... And maybe her posts did get flagged more than others, but I think it seems to be a general consensus that people are getting flag happy and are overly sensitive... This is a PUBLIC forum and we are (or at least should be) adults here! If you don't like something don't read it, if you continually disagree with a certain poster ignore their posts...
I understand that the decision has been made about the recently banned members, but I think a conversation needs to be had as a COMMUNITY about how the direction the COMMUNITY is taking... I think a lot of people are feeling like they can't voice their opinions or give honest advice, and that is the exact opposite of what WeddingBee is about...
@Stellar Magnitude: We are happy to do a refresher, but just so you know, we've tried to stay away from hard and fast rules, like 3 strikes or other absolutes... which is exactly why Tattoo got six different chances to make changes... but yeah, I see what you are saying.
I get concerned with scathing general opinions when they end up hurting the feelings of other users. What is one person's "general opinion" is another's personal attack. Do you have any thoughts on that?
As for profanity, I think it's best used judiciously and not in thread titles (so as not to offend) or in referring to other users... but otherwise, I don't think it should be censored.
I think that the MODs are doing a great job, I think a lot of the problem is the bees wanting to get in on the drama. With every new thread that opened about Tattoo more people got on the hatin' train. I don't think there needs to be hatin'.
With Tattoo the difficulty is her positive contributions outweighed her negative, so people are having a hard time swollowing it. However, while I don't disagree with the thread that got her banned, I do agree that it was not the correct use of this website. I don't feel like it was enough to get her banned, but I know nothing of her other flagged posts/warnings.
The positive on this website far outweighs the negatives. I think the situation was handled appropriately and that the community needs to respect the decisions made by the MODs.
This is just a website and it will go on. Lives will go on.
It wouldn't hurt to have a single sticky thread after a major banning that will disrupt the community with an upfront explination from the MOD team. Then all the drama can be contained there.
I actually find the title of this post to be a bit irritating, in that the mods were doing the exact opposite with posts the last 24 hours or so.
@o0olibelulao0o: I completely agree with everything you've said! We're adults here. People definitely need to learn to stop being so sensitive.
@julies1949: Fair enough, but we also don't know *which* mods have been around the last couple days. This is the first I've seen Mrs. DG around - and this evening has been when things have changed (IMO) for the better.
Thank you DG for starting this thread and encouraging the hive to come together as a community to share their thoughts and concerns.
I had a thought when I was thinking about the whole "flagging" process. while we have a tracking method for negative/offensive posts, is there a way we could create a POSITIVE flag for inspiring/thought provoking/entertaining posts? It could be the a solution to considering all sides of a situation when a certain bee is up for review.
I hope that WB continues to be a place where we can have exciting discussions, express our honest opinions and respect each other, regardless of differences or disagreements. we're strong women with strong points of view - and that is why i love WB.
Thank you for making this thread.
1) If mods are going to delete posts based on a subjective reading of the ToS, users should have similar rights to their posts. We should be allowed to request post deletion and have this request granted. Otherwise, this really starts to seem like more of a dictatorship than a community forum. I think this goes along with giving users more rights (in general) to their accounts. E.g. deleting (not deactivating) an account, changing username, etc.
2) Like Mrs Grape stated, explain the ToS in light of the issue and BE SPECIFIC.
3) Revise the ToS to create a more open forum where users can express opinions freely. I'm not saying we should be able to curse or deliberately attack a specific user, but venting about a general topic should be allowed and encouraged.
4) Truly be transparent about issues. Like some PP's have stated, create a sticky note about the issue so that all members are aware and not left wondering "WTH just happened?!". If you do that, the separate threads that you had to delete might not have existed in the first place.
Sorry if snark was read into this, I'm honestly trying to be constructive.
Repost from another thread
I just think there needs to be waaaaaay better communication. It seems really counter productive to say to clearly upset members "This is not up for discussion" and delete/close threads, then tell people everyone is trying their best to be open and "transparent" about what's happening.
This was just really poorly handled all around. MHO of course.
People got so up in arms about this because really, yes, we're all guests of the site. But we are also the people who keep this site alive. So when our concerns or dismay is ignored or dealt with in a passive aggresive or dismissive way, it's not good. It makes the people who have devoted a lot of time and energy into contributing to this place feel like they are NOT valued at all. Especially when they have just watched a member that they value very much banned for reasons many people at the time did not understand.
So I'm glad there is finally a chance to address this.
@Mrs. DG: I think that unless a poster is CLEARLY targeting another poster, it should not be considered a personal attack. General statements, even if they may offend some people, are not really personal attacks at all--just differing opinions.
I was not around for the drama, so I don't know if this applies in this particular case, but...
It seems to me like there's a big difference between closing comments on a thread that's getting out of control, and deleting a thread so that no one can read it and come to their own conclusions. I can understand the former, but not the latter - unless something was said that was truly offensive, like racial slurs - in which case I think just that post should be replaced with "this post contained slurs and has been deleted" so everyone could know what happened and why.
@Mrs. DG: I guess I can see your point with the hard and fast rules. Maybe it's just my desire to see more black and white amongst all the gray.
As far as opinions go, it's part of life. And unfortunately online interactions tend to be worse because you can't hear the tone. Recent posts may have toed the line, but a few hurt feelings are better than the uproar that happened today. I've been offended by some people's responses. And you know what I do? I move on... whether to a different thread or another activity entirely.
Anyway. I really don't know how I'd handle this difference of opinion. Either way it's one-sided.
And about the profanity... I don't think it needs to be censored either. Most of the members here don't curse like sailors just for the hell of it.
Hold up Miss Tattoo was banned? Please can someone tell me what happened? Or is that against the rules also?
I had a thought when I was thinking about the whole "flagging" process. while we have a tracking method for negative/offensive posts, is there a way we could create a POSITIVE flag for inspiring/thought provoking/entertaining posts? It could be the a solution to considering all sides of a situation when a certain bee is up for review.
Agreed!
And, ditto, @KatyElle:!
@ostrich: I agree with this completely. I brought this up in another thread.
It's sort of like a reputation thing. It's unfair to put all of the power in the hands of those select few with a chip on their shoulder.
@Mrs Grape: agreed. I think most of us can tell the difference and honestly, would probably jump to the defense of the attacked Bee pretty darn quick.
Also love the flagging positive/negative comments. We need a like/dislike button!
@Anniebo: She made a thread venting about skinny girls who think they are fat (just a general post, venting), but used the word bit#$&. She was banned for that and some 'previous offenses/warnings'.
@Mrs Grape: + 1. What does and what doesn't constitute a personal attack is a very gray area, imo.
@Wonderwoman217: I love that idea... a simple thumbs up and thumbs down would be good. Don't know how hard that would be to put into place, but that's a great idea.
The only thing I don't like about the like/dislike buttons (and I have seen this happen before on other sites) is that is makes it very easy for groups of people to attack users they have decided they don't like.
Espeically where we have the ability to PM (which I love), but it can make it easy for people to gang up. I really wish there could just be, other than blatant personal attacks, just more of a "suck it up, it's just the internet" trend when it comes to posting. Not horrible answers or shitty unnecessary remarks, just honest adult dialogue. Don't like it, go to a different topic.
I do however, see how it could be useful in determining the consistent posters to those with nothing to contribute.
@KatyElle: I agree with this. The dislike button thing can get bad. I have a feeling this is why facebook hasn't adopted one yet, despite the many groups requesting the feature.
@KatyElle: but i think if the like/dislike was seperate from the flagging that would keep that from being an issue. If a post gets flagged then the mod can look at the post, the thumbs up/thumbs down and then make a decision based on what the hive is feeling as a whole...
If there are people who are going to gang up, they would already be doing it with the flagging (and they probably are)... I think having the mod make the final decision takes the "ganging up" element out and replaces it with the hive having a voice about the situation.
ETA: The offending post would still have to violate the ToS to issue a warning, so it would be very hard to "gang up"...
@o0olibelulao0o: I hear what you are saying, and I wish I could show you each thread and comment, but they happened over such a long time period that I don't have them all. They span a range of different broken rules though, so it wasn't just one type of offense. It was a variety of things from snark to self-promotion to personal attacks. We didn't want this to happen. I, for one, try to delete, warn or moderate as little as possible... and even I fully agreed with this action (but with a super-heavy heart). How long can you allow someone to fly in the face of the TOS, before you are forced to act? We gave a lot of leeway.
@ostrich: Great point! Flags work both ways and you can ALWAYS flag something to make a compliment as well. I always try to pay it forward and contact the complimented person when I see something like that... but flags aren't like strikes, they're just something we use to direct mods to a given thread.... so please flag good stuff and we'll pay it forward!
@TheLionQueen: I didn't read any snark into what you said. I (a couple of months ago) proposed that we allow users to delete their posts, maybe based on their Bee level, so the higher your Bee level, the more control you have over the ability to delete posts... that way people who have been in the community for a while, understand how things work, and are positive contributers get more responsibility within the community.
@KatyElle: I'm hopeful that we as a mod team can learn from this experience and learn from what you are saying.
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