Weddingbee Boards

So that was me, straight as an arrow .... picked journalism as my career my junior year in HS, worked toward it with a passion, because, well, art just wasn't a lucrative option. Heard the term "Starving artist much?"

Fast forward ten years, I graduated summa cum laude, Hofstra University, Journalism major, double minor history and fine art (could NOT give it up). Worked my butt off, quickly rose to become the youngest managing editor of a major magazine I'd EVER heard of, 25 years old, and I had close to that number of people working under me.

So switched jobs, hated the new one, lost it and moved to PA to buy a house. Months of soul searching and waitressing later, it cracked me over the head when I COULDN'T STOP LOOKING AT WEDDING PHOTOS after my wedding. Not just mine, but everyone's. I missed working for photography magazines. The one expensive thing I own is my digital camera, I have SHELVES of albums of my life, because I just love photos that much ... I should have thought of it before, but I'm thinking of it now. I didn't want to be just in them, I wanted to take them!

So I'm trying to start my own company, and telling my family the thing I've worked so hard toward for the last ten years (the thing they were so proud of me for) is not the same thing I want to be doing for the rest of my life. The shock, the skepticism, it's so real. I can tell they think it's not possible, but I know it is. The only problem ... no wedding portfolio, I've been photographing some people's animals to have something to show but that's it.

I seem to be doing okay with getting a couple of engagement shoots lined up (free of cost of course), but don't see any promise in getting anyone to trust me to photograph their wedding, not even for free. And even a few of the e-shoots seem to be unresponsive/dropping out. I don't know what to do. I'm considering offering to be a second shooter for free, but then I'll just be taking the same shots another photog set up, and the first photog would have to agree to it. I have my own ideas and my own style, and I want the couple's eyes focused on my camera, not someone elses. My career depends on it.

So what do I do? Do I bite the bullet and offer myself a second shooter even though I would feel like the photos weren't mine? Or do I keep hoping/praying for someone looking to save major money to take a chance on me?

While I respect and appreciate your suggestion, which is good, I think most photogs have official second shooters that they hire and stick to. And in this economy, you can bet they aren't changing them. I don't mind the pressure of doing it alone. I wouldn't offer if I wasn't ready. The last thing I want to do is ruin anyone's memories, and I've see plenty of "professional" photos posted that were just terrible, yet the couples were happy with them? 

My husband is quite talented with his SLR too and could probably be a backup shooter to take some pressure off. I highly doubt that a customer would be able to sue me for something I did for free. It's just a matter of someone having the guts or being tight enough on money to take the chance.

With regard to the second shooter thing, let me put it this way ... Think Philadelphia Eagles offensive coordinator, Jim Johnson, Spagnuolo spent years learning under him and all he'll ever be is a less-good version of Johnson ... couldn't even get the head coach position for the Broncos. Bunch of girls here prob wont get this analogy lol. Where is Mr. Bee?

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that normally, I have no problem starting at the bottom. I AM at the bottom, I'm doing things for free for petes sake lol, and continue to do so for some time. I think it's the artsy part of me that just doesn't want to be a less good version of someone else until that person dies. I want to be me. There are people who can paint replica's of picasso's work, but they'll still never be able to come up with an idea as good as his.

Disclaimer: This is really frank.  I'm tempted not to respond because you seem like you just want to hear what you want to hear.... but... here it goes. Oh, and I suck at writing, so don't go editing this or discount it because I can't write :-)

shangchenphoto is spot on.  You're looking at this from the artist and passion/emotional sense.  You obviously realize hard work and success if you became the youngest editor of a major publication, however, your going about starting a business all wrong.

As mentioned above - you might have a DSLR but do you have 2?  What will you do when that one stops working or goes on the fritz?  Do you have 2 flashes?  Do you have multiple lenses?  Do you have FAST lenses? f/2.8 and faster?  Can you take a properly exposed clear shot sans flash from a balcony in the back of a cathedral which is the norm?  Do you know how to expose and properly light a bride walking in from 2pm sunlight outside into the candle lit church in the blink of an eye? Can you pose and correctly angle a plus size bride or a stick thin bride?  Do you know what to do when the groom is 6'7" and the bride is 5'1"?  Do you have insurance?  Do you have enough hard drive space and the proper editing programs and RAM? A calibrated and color profiled monitor?  Do you have a business license?  Tax license?  The list goes on and on.  It's a BIG, HUGE responsibility.... you say you don't want to "ruin anyones memories" but that's exactly what your going to inevitably do by jumping in before you've learned and adequately prepared. Push the artist wanting to take pretty pictures of pretty brides OUT of your head.  

This is first and foremost a business. If you want "art" then you need to look at just doing portraits or something other than weddings.  Only 10% of my time is spent shooting.  That's really LOW.  Everything else?  Business.  Is that OK for you?  That's a question you need to think long and hard about.  Is it worth it?  Yes... I LOVE LOVE LOVE being a wedding photographer.  It is hard hard HARD work, though!  I come home sore and stiff... not to mention deaf from every wedding :-)

1st thing first, you need to invest in your business.  I.e. your business licenses, insurances, and gear.  If you plan on doing weddings you MUST... I can't stress this enough, MUST carry back up gear. You need fast lenses.  F/2.8 and faster.  Each of these lenses which you NEED multiples of in various focal lengths cost over $1,000 / each.  You need multiple flash units and know how to work them to make sure that you are keeping the ambiance the bride paid for while lighting your subject. You need to learn your states Tax laws and realize that the first time you do a gig your a business and need a license.

My suggestion is to 2nd shoot - and your assumption is wrong.  There is always a need for a 2nd shooter. Even if you have to wait a "whole" year (which really isn't that long!) to start on your own so that you can have a few under your belt it will seriously help you.  You really need to 2nd shoot. You need to know what your in for and what your getting in to.  You need to save up to properly invest in your business.  I spent 5 years doing photojournalism, portraits, commercial, architectural, and corporate event work before taking on a wedding.  It's not worth the shortcuts!  Your reputation is everything.  

Keep getting those portraits.  They don't necessarily have to be "engagements" but keep shooting.  Friends, kids, learn posing and how to interact with your customer. Save up all the money your making on portraits to invest back into your business.  Of course, keep in mind taxes and that not all the money you make you actually see!

Get your contracts and legal documents in order.

And DONT shoot for free.  Seriously... your shooting yourself in the foot by going into it with that mentality.  "It's just a matter of someone having the guts or being tight enough on money to take the chance"? Ok, not gonna lie, that statement really set me off.  Like I said, your reputation is everything in the wedding industry.  Yes, you see crappy photos people are happy with (until the see clear and proper ones :-) and I'll bet the still paid more than free for them.  Just look at it this way, once a "craigslist" photographer, that's your rep.

I just spent the entire week working on a restoration project for a bride who was "happy with her photos" after her wedding.  Not so much anymore... it's her biggest regret.  It will always catch up with you... Even most wedding photographers I know regret their own photographer decision and photos because they "just didn't know."  You NEVER want people to say that about you.  And that's what will separate you from the rest.

Your trying to open a McDonalds without the buns.  It's a recipe for failure. PLEASE listen to the advice in this thread.  Your at the emotional stage right now and not looking at this clearly.  You're obviously a very smart person... you need to step back and look further into this... 

Being a 2nd shooter, while I understand you reasoning, isn't like that.  You should be doing your own thing and shooting with someone who has a similar vision you do.  I.e. Don't go shooting for an old school photog if you want to do fine art or photojournalism.  Trust me, you will learn what works for YOU without sacrificing your own client.  I STILL 2nd shoot on occasion to work with photogs I admire.  It's actually fun without the pressure.  You get to be MORE fearless than you can if it's your own client.

2nd shooting prepares you for situations that arise, dramas, how to choreograph your dance and flow of shooting a wedding, how to pick up on hints and read situations so that you NAIL the shot that you are predicting because you know so much in and out that it will happen at X moment in X location and a client like X will do it X way.

2nd shooting is you doing your own thing... not being someone else.

Mr. Bee! Wow you showed up fast. You got the football analogy didn't you? hehehe. I am posting to the classifieds, but it looks like I posted right after someone in the same area offering free stuff, who claimed to already be a professional photog ... just not weddings. I have some stuff, but it's not wedding-related yet. Just people's pets :) I'm posting for funsies, please don't tear me apart pro photog people! hehe.

Shoot, I usually avoid The Knot and these things like the plague but now I'm planning a wedding so.... here I am! lol.

You should have contracts with your clients even if your not charging them.  And since you're starting a website and are putting a logo on images you need to get your license and business stuff taken care of ASAP.

And don't use the economy as an excuse, Zach Arias' marketing plan was called "how to get poor people to pay my rent." :-)  I've had some weddings where I was hands down the most expensive part... those are some of my favorite clients because they value me, my art, and my services.

KLP, if I knew how to do ALL of that then I certainly wouldn't be offering my services for free. However, you do underestimate me, and you did seem to miss the fact that I have a fine art minor, which invovled photography courses, and I know photoshop and spent a year and half learning cool and useful tips from the best of the best pro photographers at my previous job. I'm also enrolled in additional courses that start this month.

As for giving things away for free, it's not a crime, what about the people who can't afford an expensive photographer at all? I think I'm better than counting on just friends with digital cameras. It's actually a very nice thing I'm trying to do as I build my portfolio. As far as e-shoots go, if a couple doesn't like it, they can do it again with someone else. It's not hurting them or me.

But yeah, actually, I do know a lot of what you just sassily ranted off. And if the cathedral is way too dark and you were unprepared enough to not bring a giant flash, you are not a freakin miracle worker, you are not going to get the shot, unless it's a silouhette with open doors. I do have multiple lenses and both can take up to three shots per second. As for your question about the bride with the sun to her back, yes it's called D-Lighting. I don't claim to know it all, but don't hate me just because its taken me ten years to figure out what I want to do with my life, and you've been working toward it much longer.

Finally, if I'm the Photographer who started out on Craigs list, who cares. I love art, and people will know talent when they see it in a portfolio (if I end up having enough) regardless of where I started.

I do have people I would consider being second shooter for, and I'm not completely bashing all your suggestions, which all the photographers out there seem insistant upon, but I'm SO picky... I think there are only three very amazing photographers I can think of, and they'd be doing me a favor. Not saying I wont ask, either. I do feel pretty attacked right now though, so sorry I even posted this thread.

P.S. This thread, though it start out reasonably enough, is now officially me being attacked by a bunch of pro photographers, instead of anyone offering any kind of real encouragment or considering any options other than me spending months looking for a job I may never be able to get as an assistant. Thanks all.

Sigh... I added the disclaimer that I was being frank, but my post wasn't "sassy." I also said that I almost didn't even post because you obviously only wanted to hear one thing, and if you feel your being "attacked" and are sorry you posted this then I was right.  So please accept my apology for trying to answer your question, since I didn't give you the answer you wanted to hear.

I didn't miss that your comfortable with your "art."  If you said you had a business administration or Marketing degree I would apologize.  Multiple people, not just me, have said that you need to be looking at your BUSINESS... not your art.  Instead of photography classes take some marketing and business admin courses.  Those will honestly help you more.

As for the cathedral - it's not about being un-prepared with a giant light - 90%+ of churches... big and small no longer allow flash PERIOD. They also dont allow you to come past the back row in many of them. Things you'll get more comfortable in dealing with after some experience 2nd shooting.

Your lenses don't take "shots per second."  That's your camera.  If your glass (lenses) aren't at a wide aperture like F/2.8 or f/1.4 you'll be very hindered in low light conditions.  Not to mention that those lenses are made of metal and are much more rugged.  If you have lenses with plastic mounts your inevitably going to break one changing lenses under pressure and time constraints... and then you'll be down a lens and out $$.

When did I say I hated you?

I've only been doing photography period for 8 years... not more than 10.  And I'm the same age as you if not younger as I'm still 25.  Again, it's about business not art.  But again, what do I know.  I only started my own business as 23 and successfully entered my market as a full on competitor to "the big wigs" of my city.  I pay my rent and have no debt.  THAT is why I love my job.  I get to be the artist but my business allows that.  Without the business I don't have the art.  

I'm not being mean, and I'm not being sassy.  I'm just telling you the truth.  The truth you asked for.  

"So what do I do? Do I bite the bullet and offer myself a second shooter even though I would feel like the photos weren't mine? Or do I keep hoping/praying for someone looking to save major money to take a chance on me?"

KLP, I'm not responding to you anymore because you are draining me in an attempt to expose what I DON'T know about photography ... paragraph after paragraph after paragraph, and you wonder why I feel attacked. I think I made it very clear that I am "just starting out."

P.S. The word "lens" was a typo, but thanks for catching it. And you didn't say it was a cathedral that didn't allow flash. I obviously wouldnt be dumb enough to take one of those assignments until I figured that out. Why don't you hit me over the head with some more mission impossibly situations I won't be prepared for? How about the Morman Temples I wont even be allowed into? Whatever, get off your high horse now please. 

P.S. Thanks Mr. Bee. I do appreciate the support, and it's very encouraging to hear that SOME photographers did start that way and it is possible, if I can't get or choose not to get that ever so highly recommended second shooter job to start.

Also, I tried to take down my photos, as all these lovely other photographers made such helpful comments on them (e.g. none at all), I wish I hadn't been brave enough to share. I don't know if you can take them down, but I'd appreciate it. Thanks a lot again!