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Divorce!
We've talked about certain expectations we have for our marriage. We've talked about everything under the sun regarding our values & our goals for our lives. So naturally, we have discussed divorce too.
I've also fully informed him that in addition to our shared chequing & savings accounts I'll be keeping some "run money" in my bank in Canada. At first, he was kind of angry that I went there. After I explained that when my dad unexpectedly left my mom & he took all their money with him- my FI could see where I was coming from.
Divorce happens. And the person you marry & fell in love with is NOT the person you end up divorcing. I don't want to get screwed in the event that our marriage falls apart.
My mom says this is an AWFUL way to look at it, but I like to think I'm realistic. I think by knowing divorce is a reality we'll be able to work towards avoiding it. I think living in a dream world thinking our life is going to be nothing but roses & butterflies is just setting us up for trouble!
What do you think? Have you and your FI discussed divorce or do you avoid it all together?
We have kind of discussed it and I hope we can address it more when we do our couseling. We have discussed it from the aspect of that both of our parents are still married with strong relationships that have seen a lot of thick and thin. We have both agreed that there are very few reasons we feel that people "qualify" for a divorce. These include things such as cheating, abuse, etc. We have discussed the fact that we both take marriage very seriously as a life long committment.
However, with all of that being said. I will maintain my seperate bank account and retirement account. The house purchase for us, is in my name only. I totally understand that you cannot plan or expect a perfect life.
In theory, I think your concept of thinking makes a lot of sense. That being said, however...calliing it 'run money' does make it sound a little uncomfortable...esp. since your mom is the example you used and your mom doesn't agree.
@krissycake: lol I only called it run money because I saw that on another thread talking about joint chequing vs. seperate accounts. :)
I did use her as an example because had she had some independence & not relied soley on my father, she wouldn't have been in such trouble!
My mom agrees with keeping a seperate account, but she doesn't believe that I should be thinking "I don't want to get screwed in the event of a divorce" when we're about to get married. That's her issue :)
Actually, we recently discussed what you just said. Not divorce but "run money". We have no problems having both joint and private accts but his idea was to have the joint acct as where the major savings are. My idea was just enough to pay the bills. I said that I want to save some "run money" (as you put it), based on the history of my parents. He was uncomfortable and said that I could also run away with all his $ but he's not saving any "run money" so why should I? I backed off a little and decide to put more $ into the joint. Nevertheless, I didn't declare that I'm giving up on the "run money" just yet....
If DH had told me that the purpose of his personal account was "run money" that he was keeping in an out-of-country account I don't think I would have married him. Ours is "fun money" (he largely buys video games with his). Yes, divorce happens, but when you're not just passively thinking about it but actively planning for it, I think there's an issue.
@Johnsbride: Thanks for your opinion! I didn't call it run money to him, I just used that term on the board. Thanks for judging my actions. I'm not actively planning, I'm being prepared... but its nice to know I have issues :)
@RecessionistaBride - you started a thread to ask what people thought, you don't have to be snarky when someone answers.
I think you do have to prepare and protect yourself, especially if you ever want to bring kinds in the mix. My mom was blissfully and blindly married for 11 years. While she knew they had their problems, what she didnt know was that my dad was running around behind her back with hookers (not an exaggeration [hubby just laughed at me for looking up how to spell that]). It's been 10 years since her divorce and she is STILL struggling and is in a very bad situation to the point that she currently thinks she is going to have to go to a homeless shelter with my two youngest siblings. Granted, she probably could have pulled herself together by now with some smart financial choices, but it's definitely harder. You really just never know what is going to happen. Abuse, cheating, and other various nightmares.
Hubby and I are both commited to our marriage, and honestly, even if he cheats on me I'm not really sure I'd leave him (abuse however, is instant "game over"). But, in the back of my mind, there is always the memory of me asking my mom if she and my dad will ever get a divorce, and with utmost confidence she tells me no, not unless my dad ever kissed another woman (I was a kid), but she had no worries about that. But then he did.
I will say that divorce because a lot more real once you're married. It's kind of odd. Even going through it with my parents as a kid, when I'd see ads about divorce, I never really thought they applied to me. I'd see the same billboard every day on my way to work, "divorce $399 no signature needed" but once I got married, it just kind of hit me like "wow. that word could possibly apply to me now" idk, hard to explain.
I don't personally agree with this idea. I believe in fully committing to my marriage with no intent or option to leave, except under extreme circumstances (such as abuse). We have both agreed that divorce is not an option. I guess my FI and I just have to completely trust in each other's commitment.
I just feel like doing something like this would be a step (albeit a small one) or maybe even just a glance in the wrong direction before there is any need to do so. You know, like you're already expecting something to go wrong. Hmmm..I don't know it just wouldn't feel right to me.
That being said, you have your own situation and background which makes your life unique, so what is right for you, may not be for me. Doesn't mean you're a bad person or making a bad decision.
Are you doing any marriage counseling? If so, I would bring this up with your counselor for some advice on the issue and to provide a safe place for your FI to voice his opinion. If all agree that this will not hurt your marriage, then go for it.
FI's parents went through a nasty divorce. It's a messy subject, but we all know the stats, 50% of married couples end up in divorce. We are going to required Catholic marriage counseling... it's supposed to prepare us for marriage through discussions about issues that commonly cause conflict in couples (money, kids, etc). Isn't that in a way a divorce prevention tactic? I get where you're coming from Recessionista :)
This is something I have struggled with. My FI parents are separated, and mine have split up a few times, but are now back together (hopefully for good). The point is, I think having some money set aside to secure your financial future in case of divorce is just smart planning. It doesn't mean I love my FI (and soon to be husband) any less.
I understand this line of thinking is a shock for somepeople. My friend was horrified, and thought I was "cursing" our marriage by having these thoughts. Hardly! I have been known to be too much of a realist - but I also know that I share something very special with my FI. We have a deep bond and we would do anything for each other.
Ack, I know it looks bad to others, but I still think it is the right choice for me!
Aren't prenups pretty much the same thing - "Planning for divorce"? I don't know that I would keep any "run money", but I can see where it makes sense. Same thing with prenups.
@Blueshoes: Yes, marriage counseling is a divorce prevention tactic ... so that you never have to dig into your "rainy day" fund. I would not equate Catholic marriage counseling to stashing money away in case of an ugly divorce.
Again, I'm not against the idea for Recessionista if it's right for her.
@ gracez: I'm not equating the two. I was suggesting that it's not out of line to discuss divorce, as that's the question she posed to the hive: "Have you and your FI discussed divorce or do you avoid it all together?"
This topic has never come up for conversation. FI and I are both from a very stable family and I strongly doubt our parents have ever entertained the idea of the big D. That said, I'm not about to condemn those who want to be prepared...just in case. As optimistic as all of us are about marriage, the fact remains that the rate of divorce is at an ultimate high.
Nobody enters a marriage thinking about divorce but it happens.
We just discussed this sort of topic in our premarital counseling - and this is just my personal opinion.. but I feel like keeping something like that (although I can see why you'd lean towards doing that - I'm definitely not judging you!!!!) opens the door for that possiblity. Mr. R and I are commited to NEVER having divorce as an option, and I feel that it's important for a marriage to start off full of complete trust in the other person, in order to be successful. I understand that people aren't always honest, but.... I guess that's just my personal take on it and my personal standard/guideline for myself. I hope that whatever you end up deciding, that you and your man will both be happy with your decision - and that you never end up having to use that money for anything other than a surprise anniversary vacation!
Like RecessionistBride, I am from a broken family where my dad emptied the bank account and left my mom with 3 kids under the age of 7.
My FI's parents had a rough patch (which is no secret and was part of the empty-nest syndrom his mom went through) but overall, they have been married 35 blissful years.
I am FILLED with divorce fears but the thought had never crossed his mind until I mentioned it. Honestly, I don't think he has thought about divorce since unless I mention it. I think it comes from our family evironments. Proving my theory further, my friends from married families aren't worried about divorce but most of my friends from divorced families have the "d word" in the back of their minds.
I can't help but think we need sperate savings accounts. Maybe in 10 years I will feel more secure but for now, it is the responsible thing to do.
I don't think that Johnsbride09 was saying you have issues. ;)
I think it's always a good idea to keep some funds separate. FI and I are doing that: we put most of our money in a joint account, but maintain small separate ones. I can choose to spend my separate money on fun stuff, or I can work on saving it to create an emergency escape hatch if I someday decided I needed to... but I don't tend to think of it in those terms. If I were to discuss it with FI, I would probably do so in the context that I would like to keep some separate funds in case of an emergency... one need not be so specific about what emergency one might mean.
My FI just sat down next to me as I was reading through this thread, and I discussed it with him. I have to agree with gracez. I told FI that I completely trusted him with our money and asked if he trusted me with our money. He basically said that I might shop a little too often, but he knew I would never drive us into financial ruin. 
I think trust is so important in a marriage, and I think planning for an escape route before you need one is the first sign of not fully trusting your parter or even yourself to commit fully.
@gracez: Thank you for explaing your view on this topic in a tactful, kind manner!! I really appreciate your view on it. :)
@Mandy: I trust my FI fully, but the person you marry is not the person you divorce. You'd be surprised how quickly people can change... I've seen it first hand! Geez... look at the most public example right now: Jon & Kate! What a mess.
I think this boils down to the examples of marriage you have in your life! If you come from a family of divorce I think you're always a little bit more aware of the fact that it can happen to anyone! I don't want my children to go through what I had to... I had to grow up very quickly.
I want to be married until we're old, wrinkly & falling apart! That's my honest to goodness hope & desire. I want to end up like his parents... traveling, watching our grandkids & enjoying lazy days together. He and I both plan to actively work at our marriage :)
I just feel a little more secure with my own savings! Its just bonus money... lol a nice little retirement nest egg :) Although my FI just informed me that in his stateonce you're married anything acquired during the marriage is both of ours... including my savings lol.
This hot topic may have all been in vain!
I think you're being very smart. I don't agree that you're "planning" for divorce, just recognizing that half of marriages in this country fails, and I know you're hoping you won't be in that 50%, but you never know. I don't think ANYONE goes into marriage thinking it's going to end in divorce (I guess unless you're just in it for the money or something, which I don't get), but that doesn't mean it's not smart to have some type of plan in place so that you have money and aren't left with nothing. It's not that you think it's going to fail, it's just that you're prepared, which is responsbile! And like you said, it's better to plan for this stuff now when you are both so in love with each other rather than later in case things are different and something happens (let's hope not!).
I was an encore bride. My dh and I agreed from the beginning that there would never be a "d word" discussion...20 years later we are the happiest couple I know. That doesn't mean things have always been wonderful but it does mean that we made a real promise to one another to stick it out and work through the bad times. I couldn't be more pleased. I always support women having their own 'purse' but not as an 'out' just to be independent
@Janna: I found your response equally as snarky to only comment on the board to "call me out" on my snarkiness. Not cool.
Lets agree to disagree :) "Preparing" for divorce, whether its a prenup or keeping separate accounts may work for some & not for others. To each their own.
For the record: my original question was: "Have you and your FI discussed divorce or do you avoid it all together?"
@RB - it's always a good idea to be prepared to take care of yourself financially, no matter what it's called! :) After my dad left my mom, he took EVERYTHING. She hadn't worked in over a decade, she had no savings, he got her to sign the papers to get the equity out of the house and then did a quick sale, giving her none..... after watching that, I vowed to never allow myself to get screwed. I think it's only smart to take care of yourself in that manner. Hopefully, none of us will ever need it. But I'm with you - I'd rather have it than not!! :)
@kazoochair: Thank you for sharing :) That's wonderful! I wish you another 20+ years of success & happiness! Your last line really struck me for some reason. I think I've associated $$ as independence because my dad had control over my mother with money. Interesting point.
@laylabelle: Our situations sound very similar... I really think peoples opinions on this depend on their parents relationship. Divorce hurts & changes lives. It will always affect us to some degree.
I think it's perfectly healthy to have a separate account - many financial experts recommend it (Any Suze Orman fans out there???). I do also feel it's important to label these accounts "personal discretion funds" and not "divorce funds", even though they could potentially be used as a stash should the worst occur.
@recessionista: yes, everything acquired during marriage is split 50/50, but if you are the only one with access to the account then an ex can't "steal" the money - all that stuff gets figured out in divorce court.
My FI's parents went through a divorce when he was 11. His father was an alcoholic and was horribly mean from what i understand. The stories i have heard make me cringe. My parents have been sepreated twice and in different states. We both have talked about divorced since we started dating and even more when we became engaged. it is so serious to us. We actually talk about it still. We try and look at how both our parents handled things and try to change it or see how we should handle things. Goodness knows we have had our share of nasty fights already. I know my FI knows i will have money incase something happens.
@peanutlovespumpkin: I love Suze Orman! lol and David Bach. :)
@liltexas: children of divorce are so much more aware! I think its essential to bring it up & discuss it, as long as we don't harp on it! :)
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">@recessionista: she's the best!!! I love her no-nonsense style, although I am sure she would "deny" the wedding we're currently planning, haha ...
We have definitely discussed divorce because both of us have divorce in our family histories. However, we aren't planning for it, as in setting aside personal money in case we split up or getting a prenup. I think it might be different if we both came into the marriage with independent wealth, but we are both young and recent college graduates, so we are starting off our financial life together. As we both advance in our careers, we plan on saving some individually as well as building our own credit, but that is not because we fear divorce, but just to establish some independence. Divorce is a fact of life but I am completely confident it will not be a fact of ours.
My mom is divorced and remarried and when she married my stepdad, they got a prenup. She said, "We know that we will never have to use it, so when my financial advisor suggested it, we just did it because to us, it holds no more value than any other piece of paper." I think you should place the value on your relationship firstly, and you won't have to worry about other "what ifs".
My parents are still married, and it's true. I don't have that fear of divorce. But I also have a healthy view of the reality of marriage.
Whoa hi! I think, honestly, the sad reality is that you have to be prepared for anything, even if you don't intend to use it. Same reason people get long term care insurance- you don't WANT to be in a nursing home, but you have to be prepared for the posibility of a stroke or whatnot.
Since it happened to your family, your mom, I totally, totally understand why you would keep money aside, especially since you'll be jumping countries to be with him. No harm, no foul! My parents aren't divorced, but one of my best friends growing up saw her parents through a nasty, nasty divorce in which the mom was stay-at-home and she vowed that would NEVER happen to her- she's got "run money" as well... nothing wrong with calling it that, just shows you're having a sense of humor about a serious issue!
@RB - agreed. If you've watched what CAN feasibly happen in a relationship, and the resulting impact of it on a person that wasn't financially independent, it definitely makes you more aware of the possibilities. I hate that my mother has gone through what she has, but it was a great lesson for her, me, my sister.... we learned a lot.
Sister from another Mother (aka Recessionista), we don't see eye to eye on this one.
I DO think it's important to talk about it, but you can believe I won't be holding back any money, and I don't expect him to either. This might be related to my religion, but for us, the two becoming one really is just that. I just can't see sharing one life if we have separate finances, or if I'm always putting part of my check into an account that I know, anywhere in the back of my mind, is 'just in case'. I know myself, and I know how much I struggle with trust - I have to make a choice to trust him completely, or I won't.
That said, if anything were to ever happen between us, I don't think I'd be left high and dry. I have a very capable set of skills and have never had trouble finding work I love. I am also enmeshed in several communities that are available to support me if I were to fall into hard times and need help getting back onto my feet (my family, my religious community, the humanitarian group I work with, etc.)
I don't think there's anything particularly worrisome about having separate accounts (provided everyone is aware of them - keeping money secret from your spouse would sound like a red flag to me!), but I think the mindset behind them is really important.
The term "run money" seems to be setting off a lot of sparks here; for me, I was surprised by it too, until I realized you didn't mean it the way I originally thought. Calling it "run money" (even in jest, here on the boards), in my mind implies you're assuming it will need to be used - planning for the inevitable, if you will. I don't think that's what you meant though, is it?
I guess that's the direction I'm rambling in - if you keep money back because you see divorce as an inevitable end, or out of fear of your FI being too much like your father, I would question why you're getting married in the first place; but if you're doing it because you see it as the most responsible path for yourself, then I say go with it. The intention behind it can make all the difference in my mind.
As with all aspects of life, the ideal solution for one couple (or individual) may be the opposite of what is ideal for someone else.
I'm on board with fun money rather than run money. It's just nice to have a bit of financial independence and not have to answer to anyone if you want to buy something nice or have a girls weekend. We have not fully merged our bank accounts and I think once we do, we'll both keep a small amount in our seperate acocounts. We've also talked about divorce in that we both want to go into this marriage and leave divorce as a non-option no matter what. This may seem idealistic to some but I think it is important to trust the other person and be on the same page. If one person is more worried or prepared for divorce than the other than the balance can be thrown off.
Divorce is a sad sad reality, yes. My parents are divorced.
But FI and I have talked about the fact that it isn't an option. When we say "I do" it means forever... no back up plan, no just in case. It means... this is it. (I will note that there are exceptions... such as violence and unhealthy stuff) but anything else we can work with. I know where you are coming from since it is something you went through and is effecting how you are seeing your own marriage.. but your mom- who was the one that was left with no money.. said you didn't need the "Run money".. .. ? I think that is wise advice.
I think that just having the "run money" causes tention.. like you have a back up plan. Marriage isn't supposed to be that way. The chips are all-in. No other options. It's when people have back up plan that divorce becomes an option.
My opinion - it seems that having a financial back up puts the prioity of money ahead of commitment to your spouse.
We've only been engaged like 10 days so we haven't figured out all the financial stuff yet... but from pre-engagement talks I know that neither of us is offended by the idea of prenups or separate accounts. We'll have to figure out if it makes sense for us... but I think that there is nothing at all wrong with either idea.
Hope (and work towards) the best; plan for the worst.
My man and I talk about what we think marriage takes to work and how to keep our relationship strong. He will be an encore groom and knows what it's like to have a partner that isn't invested in the relationship. He also has a lot of divorces in his family, including his parents, while divorce is almost nonexistent in mine. I don't consider divorce an option for us, and he is dedicated to making his next marriage his forever marriage.
Will we have a certain measure of financial independence? Yes. Will we address those issues that become problems and could lead to divorce? Obviously. But at least on my part, I will NEVER mention divorce as an out when we are arguing, when we're not happy with each other, when something isn't right. The "D" word will not be part of our communication. It's simply not an option.
Consider this "for worse" scenario: my dad is a manic-depressive who brought homeless people to live with us while we were still children, attempted suicide several times, abused medication, accused my mom of having affairs, and accumulated a $60K debt in credit cards alone. My parents are Still. Married. Things are getting better, they're exhausted but happy, and my siblings and I never had to experience the trauma of a broken family. (Not that we didn't have other trauma to deal with, obviously...but we're still together. And strong.)
I see couples who divorce and I cannot fathom what problems could be so great that they couldn't make it work. I get so mad when I see the selfishness of people who have affairs, claim they're "just not happy anymore," and check out, leaving the other person to pick up the pieces. It's disgusting! 
Ugh. If I ask anything of the ladies in the hive...please don't become one of those people.
ETA: That reminds me of this great quote. I was at a weekend retreat geared toward teens, and during a Q&A session, someone asked a longtime married lady if she had ever thought about divorcing her husband. "Divorce him? No. I thought about killing him, but never divorcing him!" :P
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