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I've been following this story pretty closely for the last few days and things got very interesting last night following Joe Paterno's firing. A lot of people on my facebook say that is the right call, but a decent percentage feel he should not have been fired - he contributed much to the community & school, did what he was required to by law, should be allowed to finish the year, etc.
I am curious what you Bees think - did Paterno need to go for failure to do more or should he have been allowed to remain after doing what was required by the law?
For those of you not all up on this - there's too much to try and type here - so here are a couple links including the grand jury report.
Grand Jury Report: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/11/06/sports/ncaafootball/20111106-pennstate-document.html
USA Today overall scandal: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/story/2011-11-06/penn-state-abuse-scandal-chilling/51100830/1
Chicago Tribune on the firing: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-haugh-col-20111110,0,837895.column
Washington Post on the firing: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/joe-paterno-will-retire-at-end-of-penn-state-football-season/2011/11/09/gIQAQbkb6M_story.html?tid=pm_sports_pop
We've talked about this a LOT at work. If Jim Tressel was fired for letting his players exchange autographed jerseys for tattoos then Joe Paterno had to go. A part of me is sad that his legacy is going to be tarnished by this but mostly I'm just in disbelief that so many people would allow the "incident" in 2002 to go unreported
I am so sick of hearing people defend this man because he is a legacy or a Penn State "hero". Who gives a shit about a legacy. Children were molested, he didnt do everything in his power to stop it. That's all that matters. Who cares about protocol? If you know about a child being molested/raped and you don't call the police then there is something seriously wrong with you. People need to stop being so ridiculous. Football is not greater than the well being of children!!!
I'm also semi-sad that his legacy is tarnished but I think it was the right call. I know he did a lot for his community but he also failed on one of the biggest issues of his career. I'm appalled that this issue was known by so many people and that everyone just kind of let it slide. I also don't know how as a person you could let something like that slide without feeling absolutely terrible.
I heard one opinion about how Joe Paterno always wanted his players to go the extra mile, do more than the minimum. Well in this case he did the minimum that he had to do when he should have gone that extra mile to help those kids. And I don't just blame him, I blame anyone and everyone that knew about this.
@PitBulLover: ditto! As a sports fan I get what Joe Paterno represents, the legacy etc. But this is bigger than football. He had to go.
Joe deserved to be fired. What was permitted to happen at that school makes so sick to my stomach.
I do think he had to go. Even if he reported it to the athelitic director... he knew nothing came of it. You have to push harder, go directly to the police. When you know a child is in danger you should be driven to act, by ethics if not by law.
However, I do think it was crappy that they fired him over the phone. Yes, a school is bigger than it's athletic programs but football brought a lot of people and money to Penn State. For all he did for the school I think he deserved the head of the board firing him in person.
There's more than just fluff behind the argument that he followed the letter of the law. The failure here does not rest solely on Joe Paterno's shoulders, but on the PA legislature as well. If we hold people to this heightened level of morality, then who's to say that the next person who fails to report something that may or may not have happened will get the ax despite the fact that they reported it to their superior as required by law. We must all remember that there is no statutory law that requires someone to call the police when a crime is committed and that, while it's a gross injustice for the boys who were molested, his firing doesn't give them any true solace. Rather, it protects the university from further liability and allows them to save some face in light of this scandal.
I think what happened to those boys is absolutely horrible, but I don't think he should have been fired. Legally, he didn't do anything wrong. He had no duty to report the crime to the police. While I think morally he probably should have taken it upon himself to contact the police, legally, he didn't have to. Penn State is firing him to appease people. I guess as an attorney, I feel like we should be focusing on our time and effort on people actually breaking laws, like the molestor, and not Joe Paterno.
@Boston Bee: You're right... he didn't do anything legally wrong. Which is why he won't be prosecuted. But the school is not a legal authority. They have to protect themselves and their students. I wouldn't want someone working with 18 year old boys who obviously doesn't have a strong desire to protect child welfare.
@Moose1209: But he may be sued in a civil court $$$$
Since it's a state school, I hope and pray this doesn't end up hurting the taxpayers and he (if decided) or all of them are sued personally or through insurance.
@PitBulLover: I couldn't agree more.
@EsqBailey: I think by now it's a moral issue rather than a legal issue don't you think? I mean, firing him is NOT going to insulate the University from further issues based on this. I was talking about this with DH yesterday and I was wondering why the grad student (a 28 year old man!!) didn't do anything when he saw Sandunsky having sex with a 10 year old in the bathroom. I thought he should have done something, anything. Even though legally he wasn't held to the standard of calling the cops, going home to talk to your dad did not do it for me. I think Paterno and all the others should be punished. Yes, it wasn't his legal obligation to call the cops BUT he knew what was going on. Knew that this guy was also involved in a charity that helped very young boys and he did nothing. Him and the University should be held very accountable (the University has a higher standard though) Losing his job and having his legacy tarnished is punishment enough but I wouldn't have wanted to see him go scot free like those Catholic Bishops etc (don't EVEN get me started on that!!). Lastly, I do think they should have had the decency to let him release a statement of his resignation instead of letting him release a statement saying he was going to stay through the end of the season and then firing him over the phone a few hours later. Boo to them. Too little too late I say!!!
Sorry in advance if this topic has already been addressed... I haven't been following too closely, just what I see on the news. I'm wondering if anything is going to be done to the superiors that Joe Paterno told? Shouldn't they be held accountable for not responding appropriately, especially if Joe is?
@BayStateBride: I believe they are currently on administrative leave while the investigation continues. Firing Joe was obviously going to get them a lot more publicity.
@Moose1209: Oh ok, I just haven't heard any mention of what is happening with them in the news clips. Thanks for the update.
There are a huge number of people in the community that are responsible for the continuation of abuse, but all I can say is that if someone came in and told me that he witnessed one of the people I work closest with anally raping a 10 year old in a shower, I would be a hell of a lot more upset than he obviously was. Especially since he had been caught in the showers before with a child. I'm sorry but people talk, and enough people knew something was wrong that this whole thing is disgusting.
Here's an interesting timeline:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/penn-state-scandal-timeline-jerry-sandusky_n_1084204.html
@BayStateBride: I believe those two are actually going to be charged with perjury.
I agree with PitBullLover and several others - no he didn't have to do more - but you've been coaching young men for 30+ some years (at that point) you know this man (your friend) has a history of incidents involving young boys. How do you sit by and not do anything?How do tell those young men to do more, to have honor and integrity every day, while you just kick the can up the road on something like this?
I saw somewhere that they actually found it fitting that he was fired over the phone as a phone call nine years ago (to the cops) could have ended this.
I also think the former GA should be fired as well.
I feel like saying 'he did what he had to do' is like saying if I witness a hit and run, and now the car is on fire, I just call 911 and leave. I have no legal obligation (let's exclude good Samaritan laws here)to try and help the person in the car, but don't I have a moral obligation as a human being to do something?
@bree72: something else interesting - the DA who was involved with that initial investigation went missing shortly thereafter and the family is now trying to have him declared legally dead.
@hisgoosiegirl: YES. That's the thing. Imagine if we all just lived by the letter of the law. If you see someone being beaten out on the street, do you just tell someone else or do you call the cops?? You are not legally obligated to do anything about the situation, but morality should outweigh that.
I agree with the decision to fire him. I think the rioting students are a bit short-sighted.
If a school teacher can get fired for not reporting abuse to the police, then why shouldn't he?
How would you feel if you were the victim(s) or victims' families?
As a Penn State Alum, this is what I posted on facebook, yesterday.
Not happy about them letting go Paterno but if he needs to go, I think there should be a few others that need to go, too! Joe Paterno was a great coach and will be missed. I'm a proud Penn State Alum and always will be. I'm disgusted and shocked about this whole scandal. We are... going to get through this. We are... PENN STATE!
This is what I posted this morning...
To Non-Staters by Beth Painter
We know you don't understand. Generally, we don't try to explain. Unless you are a Buckeye or Fighting Irish, you probably don't get how an institution embeds itself in a student's life. And that is fine.
But right now, we want you to know this:
We are distraught and truly sickened by this horror perpetrated on young victims by one who represented the Blue and White, and perpetuated by others at the University. We aren't blind followers who drink Blue Kool-Aid. We grieve for and with the victims and their families. We pray for them to find healing and peace and a way to live a good life.
We know that while many people had responsibility, the most visible one almost always goes down first. We are not disputing the need for this to happen.
We are not "defending" anything. We are simply crushed and heartbroken. This is not the Penn State we love, the Penn State that is part of our being.
What you know of Joe Paterno probably comes from television or magazine articles. We know the man who has lived in the same McKee St house for decades. We have chatted with him as he walked to practice. We have eaten ice cream with him at the Creamery. We have studied in the new library wing his money helped build. We have visited the sports museum and spiritual center he also helped build. We have seen him cheering on other Penn State athletes. We know he loves Penn State as much as we do.
Some of our friends, brothers, husbands, sons have been privileged to put on the Blue and White uniform and listen to 100,000 fans in Beaver Stadium. We know how hard they have worked, how much time they have devoted, how many of them have been part of an excellent scholar/athlete legacy...and how much they love this man and this program.
We aren't stupid or naive. We know Joe Paterno has culpability. We know he could have made different choices - he admitted that. We don't think he is God or always perfect or saintly. But he is the greatest college football coach ever, and he is PSU family, and we don't want his exit to be like this.
WE ARE...not closing our eyes, ignoring reports, pretending this isn't a wretched occurrence.
WE ARE...angry that innocents would be violated under our care.
WE ARE...in support of appropriate punishment for every person involved.
WE ARE...demanding change to a system that would allow this.
WE ARE...not concerned if you do not understand our love and devotion.
WE ARE....PENN STATE and we will rise again
I agree that rioting isn't the best thing to do, right now. I think the students are pissed and being at a big university likem that it's easy to jump on the band wagon and riot because everyone else is. Personally, if I was still in school there, I would not be rioting. I'm hoping that the students there realize this. I know it's sad we lost a great coach but we will get through this.
As a PSU Alum I am sickened over this whole issue! Joa Pa was more than just a coach! He did so much for his players, the school, all the students and the community as a whole. He deserves more than just a phone call firing him after 46 yrs!!!!!!!!!!
I feel bad for Paterno. He's an old man who spent decades working for the school and working hard...he's not a bad person. It's terribly sad he had to exit like that. Though what choice did the school have? It's a horrific situation that never should have happened to begin with.
What stuns me is that Paterno, who didn't witness the assaults and reported the attacks within the law (regardless of whether it was enough), got fired.
McQueary, the then-28 assistant who allegedly did witness an assault and didn't go to the police, will be coaching the PSU game on Saturday.
!!!
I read the grand jury report yesterday morning. Absolutely horrifying and disgusting. Those poor boys. Everyone involved (knowing wise) deserves what is coming to them.
When my nephew's home life was spiraling out of control and his mother refused to listen to reason, Child Services was called. No we didn't want to call, but if we didn't step in, my nephew could've been yet another "bad" kid caught up in the system. Our family discussed this issue for a week and then the call was made. Our relationship w/ his mother went from worse to non-existent, but it was worth it. My nephew is now thriving and believes he has a future. It only took one phone call. And that is what I expect of every adult. One phone call to the Child Services or the police.
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2011/11/09/2264431/focus-should-be-on-jerry-sandusky.html
This article says it better than I could... basically that I'm sick of hearing all the drama about JoePa and NOTHING about the actual predator. Because in essence, while they allowed the football program to supercede the real problem at the time and not report that incident, WE are doing the same thing by focusing on a football program and a famous man, not the victims and the true offender. Joe Paterno heard about it second-hand and he told his AD, as he should have, and the AD covered it up and dropped the ball. Yes, he should've called the police, even he says so. But this witch hunt is overkill considering there's a real monster out there that DIDN'T do his legal duty and DIDN'T change 45 years worth of students lives for the best.
@Minutiae: McQueary was the GA who WITNESSED it? Well then excuse my French but that's bullshit. He should be fired just as quickly (or more!) than Paterno. That's a sickening double standard IMO.
I was tweeting about this earlier - It saddens me that the name/reputation/honor of an institution was deemed more important that the safety/well-being/health of a child. If this had been reported 9 years ago, innocent children could have been spared the harm by that predator.
I like Joe Paterno & understand how it is so sad for alumni, students, players, etc - so this is just a tragic situation all around. Obviously, the real monster here is Sandusky. But think if it was your child who was abused - would you be okay with the fact that a person with much power & the ability to report what happened didn't go to the police? Just told another friend? And then realized for years that it was never addressed? I really don't think so.
I agree with the decision to fire Paterno, legacy and fame are not as important as protecting a child. I am shocked though that the GA and all the many other people who knew about the incident and did nothing aren't being similarly punished. Why are coaches not held to the same standard as others who come into contact with children? Teachers, counselors, doctors, many many jobs require their employees to report to the police if they are aware of any kind of abuse (child or adult) happening. Why were these people not required to do the same? The whole thing is sad. I feel really bad for the Penn State alumni and students and fans, I know I would be embarrassed if this happened at my university, even though it's not their fault.
@MrsWrangler: I think it's more about the dispute over who should be punished. No one is going to disagree that Sandusky deserves punishment, he has, what, 40 charges against him I think it said? Nobody like to talk about things we all agree on ;) Human nature.
If you know of a child being abused, you are REQUIRED BY LAW to report it TO THE POLICE, NOT to your boss. Granted, I'm not 100% sure of the laws of PA, but here in Canada, even ordinary citizens are legally required to report child abuse, and people who work in positions of authority (coaches, teachers, doctors, nurses, etc.) are even more so.
He should have been disciplined further than a mere firing, and I sincerely hope that there is going to be a lawsuit.
@galloway111: I guess my issue is that no one seems to give a crap about the people perpetrating the crime or the people actually covering it up... I guess that is boring to talk about, you're right, but I hate that the media (and therefore conversation) has centered on someone on the outskirts of the actual problem. I do agree with your POV though - if Paterno's out, why is the GA coaching this Saturday's game? Isn't he just as reprehensible?
@Jenniphyr: I don't think it's the same in America.
I'm sorry, but I'm sick of hearing people defending him because he was the greatest football coach in history. That is not relevant. This is abused children we are talking about. Do you think the parents of those abused children care whether or not Paterno is a legendary coach? I don't think so. Anybody who had any knowledge that this was going on and didn't do enough (call the POLICE) to try to stop it should be fired. And worse, if you ask me.
And I write this as a Penn State fan.
I am also a Penn Stater. I am sick about the scandal and what those poor boys went through. I agree that there definitely needed to something done about the higher ups that tried to cover up what happened, but I am also very tired of the fact that it seems like all of the blame is being put on Joe Pa. What about the sick asshole who did that to the children in the first place? Why isn't there more of an outcry about him? We are hearing so much about what Penn State did or didn't do and we are hardly discussing the monster that actually did these terrible crimes, that is what we should really be upset about.
@Jenn23: We're only defending him because there are others who still have jobs who were involved. Like I said in my earlier post, if Paterno needs to go, then so do others. The media is focusing on Paterno and not the ones involved.
@Jenn23: & @yrret107: I have some Penn State friends that are not rioting, not posting stuff about Paterno. I understand that this is a huge betrayal to the students, alumni, and majority of the employees there. The ones defending or rioting are the ones that I'm having a harder time understanding.
I realize he did a lot of good - but at what point is that outweighed by the molestation of young boys? By him not calling in 2002, how many more boys lives were tragically changed? At one point is all the good he's done outweighed by that?
One of the posters annoying me has a two year old son. Her status yesterday was thaty Paterno did what was required by law. I wanted to ask her that if this had been her son victimized, would she be satisifed that Paterno did the minimum that he had to do? When he knew the perpetrator had a history? Would that have been good enough for her?
@yrret107: It's just the nature of the media, because Paterno is the most famous. Of course Curley and Schwartz deserve to get fired, and they will. And they will probably be found guilty of perjury as well.
@doily: He's simply the most visible and well-known person in this. So he ends up as the headline for most of the stories.I don't think it's right, but that's what it is.
The problem with Sandusky being a monster is just that - he is an evil, sick person. He was never going to stop what he was doing and while he should (and hopefully will) be held responsible - it wasn't like he was ever going to come forward and say, ooops, I'm a bad guy, put me in jail. That's where the responsibility falls on the higher-ups at PSU, the cops (who investigated the allegations some time agao), the parents, the GA, the janitor, the campus police, faculty at the school he was kicked out of, employees at the Second Mile - anyone and EVERYONE who KNEW something was going on, something wasn't right to do whatever they could to stop that man.
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