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Mine never went that way.
He needs a woman to know and understand him completely? Bullshit. That will never happen. He needs to get over that because it's not going to happen. Who even knows and understands their own self completely? It sounds like a pleasant relationship, but he has unrealistic expectations.
@helenberrycrunch: lol @ your reply.
Another thing, I love challenges. I have trained for and ran marathons, got my master's, taught myself a second language, volunteered overseas ALONE, taught myself a million other things, but THIS I can't see myself doing. It's way too abstract. Until I figure out a way to travel inside his central nervous system and read all the encryptions on the nerve cells, I will never truly know him. And seeing that people change all the time, it's like learning how to predict the weather.
I'm sorry, but that sounds like the reasoning of someone who is too immature or self-important to get married any time soon.
Just the fact that he's so concerned about you knowing him, but apparently not at all concerned about HIM knowing YOU makes me think that he is too self-absorbed to commit fully to someone else.
He's setting the bar impossibly high. You have to know him as well as his dad? Well, that's never going to happen (in his eyes) because his dad has had 37 years and seen him grow from a baby into man. You can know him *differently* than his dad, but by his reckoning, I doubt he'll ever give you credit for knowing him well enough.
Maybe I'm wrong. Did he give you an estimated timeframe, at which point he can conclude you know him well enough? I am sympathetic to people who feel that 18 months isn't enough time...I dated my fiance for 6 years before we got engaged! But not because of some bullshit reasoning like this. For us, it was because I had to see that he could deal constructively with his depression. That was a several-year-long period, during which I stayed with him, but couldn't commit to marrying him. But it was for a concrete reason, not because he "couldn't truly know me."
i agree with helenberrycrunch--that's just unrealistic. making the commitment to marry is choosing to change with that person you love as you grow and change in unpredictable ways and confront everything life throws at you together.
our pre-engagement convos didn't go like that--when hubby was hesitant, it was because he personally didn't feel ready to be married yet, like he wasn't sure about his career, etc, but. he always seemed sure about me...but that's just our experience though...
I'm calling BS too. We are human beings, not instruction manuals. We are dynamic and while our partners can know us pretty damn well, they will never know us perfectly. And like you said, you can't measure that kind of knowledge, nor put a time limit on it. No one can say, "I'm so dynamic that I've measured the exactly number of years it takes for someone to get to know me." That's idiotic. And having the perfect partner means you've found someone who can, and wants to change with you if it happens. Everyone worries about that. If I become a vegan will he still love me? If I put on 10 lbs, cut my hair short and dye it brown and change jobs, will he stil love me? Everyone worries about that. I don't think he even knows what "the one" is all about. I think he has conceptualized some unrealistic version of "the one" that he never has to answer to because ever 2 years she will morph into a different person who accepts him wholeheartedly.
We all poop. And we all change. I think there's a book out there on that. It sounds like his version of the perfect woman is himself. Not to mention the fact that EVERYONE is worried about marrying the wrong person. But at some point you weigh the positives and the negatives, you close your eyes, put all your fears behind you, and you leap and pray to God someone's there to catch you. Every chance we take in life is a leap of faith. He will NEVER find himeslf in a woman's body, a woman at his age that is wiling to wait the required 20 years for her to prove she "knows" him, a partner that is certifiably perect for him and will never hold him accountable for anything, or any opportunity in life that doesn't come with an element of the unknown. He's making EXCUSES. And poor ones at that.
The more you talk about this, the more the alarm bells in my head go off. You know your relationship better than anyone. And I know you'll figure out what's best for you. But we're here for you, whatever you decide.
I agree - people are always changing so you can never know someone 100%. Does he expect the same from himself - for him to know you completely? Or is this a one sided thing? I'm sorry you're going through this - but it sounds to me like he's making excuses especially since he tells you he goes through metamorphosis every few years - but he needs someone to completely know him before marriage - that's contradictory, no?
I think the wonderful thing about relationships is that people grow and change together and therefore, are constantly learning new things about each other - it makes the relationship interesting.
@finnaroo: excellent point-- he was unsure of himself often, but never unsure of me.
I hate to say this, but I think it's pretty clear this guy doesn't want to get married...maybe never. His excuses are such crap. You can never understand someone completely 100%. You can know them extremely well and know their habits, but we just can't know how others feel or think all of the time.
I would move on, Sweetie. :(
Oh and to bring some perspective from my relationship, our pre-engagement talks never went this way. We've been together for 10 years (since highschool) and he's never doubted us. Of course we've both changed since highschool (can you image if we didn't?!!). We grew and changed together through school, through our jobs, through buying a house and living together - and we're definitely going to grow and change through our engagement and marriage and having children. We're not engaged yet, (maybe it's because of all this change, lol - I know it's not), but I know he's sure of us spending the rest of our life together and is excited about growing old together.
I know your relationship is different - but life is growth and change. I don't think anyone stays the same. I think your SO needs to come to grips with that or he won't ever be open to marriage.
Weddingbee ate my previous comment, but I feel like he's setting the bar ridiculously high so the blame is on you for not meeting it.
That of course has the added benefit of allowing him to live in a state of denial where he doesn't have to come to grips with the fact that either (a) he's intentionally stringing you along (b) he's unintentionally doing so because he's not mature enough to be open with you (c) he's emotionally unavailable.
Good for you for raising a red flag on his behavior.
Ok, I feel totally oppsite from most people, but want to get out my feelings on the subject. (I am not trying to in any way say that what any of you are thinking or feeling about this subject is wrong, I just want to get my personal thoughts and feelings down, so you may get more insite to the oppsite thoughts and feelings)
I personally had no intentions to marry my guy after even 2-3 years. I just wanted to experiance him, and let him experiance me. We dated for about 5 years before we got engaged, and am glad that we did. Things were pretty rocky at the beginning, because he was a young guy and was a little on the wild irresponsible side (I am sure that I had my issues as well). Well, a year or so into the relationship things got a great deal better, and we grew with eachother. Pretty close to right before we got engaged things just started to click and there was this mutual feeling that we both knew eachother pretty well. It is an amazing feeling, we kinda feel like one unit (even though we have our differences and can go do different things at times). I do realize that we are both going to change over the years, but do have an overwhelming feeling that the changes are not going to be anything that would majorly supprise me. I am sure as we change we will still have the same strong bond.
See, that seems healthy and reasonable to me. You were both on the same page, moving forward, living life together - not setting up standards that were both fuzzy and impossible to meet. This seems like a very different situation.
@pinkhorse: I agree there's always the what-if factor, but Harmony's indicated she needs to know if this is headed in that direction, and she feels it isn't.
I think it's worth trying to engage him in an honest discussion, but it does seem time to weight what she wants vs. where he is right now in his life.
He may not always be like this, but whether and when he will change is a very unknown factor. A maybe not one worth waiting on, depending on Harmony's needs.
@Mrs. Harmony: I agree with most of the previous posters- I called BS after reading halfway through your post. It sounds like this guy just wants you to jump through hoops for him. So he COMPLETELY gets you, but not vice versa? That's crap. Like someone mentioned above, people most of the time don't even understand THEMSELVES completely.
It sounds narissistic to me- like he thinks he's better or smarter than you, i.e. like you are so simple of a person that he can practically read your thoughts, yet YOU have to work your ass off to really "understand" him? Every human being is complex, including you. I'm sure he doesn't know EVERYthing, give me a break. I would start throwing THAT in his face. That whole dynamic is frickin UNfair!! It's like he's the prize to be won, and MAYBE you'll get him if you REALLY try. Healthy relationships don't work like that- I think each person needs to feel lucky to have the other & be completely unselfish about it...
Most people by 37 start to figure out what they really want, or at least what they want to work towards... and it doesn't sound like that's marriage for this guy. I'm sorry, I know this is not what you wanna hear, this post struck a chord with me I guess
Say what? Is this guy so arrogant and self-centered that he thinks you need to 'work' to earn his trust/companionship/proposal? Ugh. I'm glad to hear he treats you well but this stuff would not only drive me batshit crazy, it would also drive me away.
Perhaps you are a stronger woman than I, but I'd head for the hills and find someone who wants to show you who he is, so that you can forge a bond that only gets stronger with time. Someone who is actively engaged and involved in the partnership, not just a one-sided "you have to crack my hardened exterior to prove you deserve to get inside the secret fortress of my heart" kind of thing. Ick.
I certainly wish you the best of luck.
Ya im gonna have to call BS.. I can honeslty say my pre engagement convorsations never went anything like that. You shouldnt be the only one trying to make your relationship either.. It sounds like he wants you to work for him and get to know him.. (he is basically stalling (sp) ) But does he not feel that he needs to do the same things.. Oh and I think that yes people change through time etc etc. but Idk about changing your entire personality and what you like and dont like etc. I think hes a wack job.
Move on. You could go out to the bar and find a better guy by 10 pm tonight. Guarunteed.
What happened to there being a little bit of mystery?
What everyone else said. Plus: Does he have any friends who are in successful committed relationships? I don't think he'd react well to a suggestion to go to therapy to work out his unrealistic expectations of marriage, but maybe you can talk to one of his (preferably male) friends and tell them what he said, and get him to have a conversation. You have to do so in a sensitive manner so he doesn't see you as trying to go behind his back, but maybe bring it up when say, you are out with this fabulous other couple as a foursome, in the way of "the Mr. and I were having an interesting conversation about X. For you, was there anything you felt that you needed to know or have happen before you got engaged? Did your ideas on marriage ever change?" Ok, those questions aren't worded well, but basically get them to share their experiences then have a dialogue on it and maybe he'll see his ideas are...not the usual, unrealistic, and one sided.
Hm. I'm reading his comment less like he's setting a task for you to perform, and more than his feeling of being unsure that you're the one stems from a sense that he's not sure you really do understand him at this point. "Understanding" the person you're with is not a task that you can accomplish by trying harder, but something that comes naturally over time, sometimes a very long time. Or sometimes, doesn't come at all if the two people are not compatible.
He my be b.s,ing you, but at that same time I could see a valid scenario for saying these things. Don't know which it is in your case but just wanted to throw that out there.
@mightywombat: 100% agree with you. He is giving you excuses for why he will never propose, never want to get married, never really settle down. That way when it comes to a head, he doesn't feel the bad guy because he pretty much warned you.
Honey I waited TWENTY years for my ex (spit) to comes to terms and making the big commitment. It never happened. I am not trying to discourage you but rather save you some valuable time. Then after my daughter and only child died and I became depressed and apparently did not give him enough attention, he promptly dumped me for a bar skank and I hear they are now in a perfectly miserable relationship together, Whatever.
Only YOU know how long you are willing to wait. But I can assure you, he is not the only one out there for you. After I finally came to grips that it was over with my ex, I forced myself to start interacting with people again and met my husband.
This guy has a gigantic wall up and he will not be letting it down anytime soon, if ever. I don't think he'll ever be ready for marriage and he's telling you this loud and clear. He's making it 100% impossible to be ready for marriage because it is 100% impossible to know someone inside and out. The only person who can know ourselves 100% is ourselves, no other person can know you like you.
And what about you?! Why does he not need to know you inside and out? He seems pretty self-centered that you need to know him but he says nothing - absolutely nothing - about making an effort to know you.
I'm sorry, but I say run while you still can. Run before you've invested anymore time into this guy. I'm sure he IS a good person, I have no doubt. But being a good person does NOT make someone a good husband.
@Mrs. Harmony: This probably isn't what you want to hear, but it sounds to me like he's basically saying that marriage is not for him. I'm going to disagree with the others here in that I think him recognizing that in himself (and especially *being honest about it*) is a sign of maturity, of sorts. But it sounds like that is not what you're looking for. This may fall under "irreconcilable differences," if you ask me.
@LaurenK0105: Good point about him making this sound like a very one-sided challenge ("Get to know me beyond a shadow of a doubt and I'll marry you!"), rather than what (IMO) a mature relationship should be, in which two adults find someone that they would like to grow and change with, together.
Honestly, it seems like you've taken as a challenge what is, to an outsider, a point-blank refusal to get married. He must know that what he's looking for is impossible. I say, find someone who deserves your ambition and continue feeding your desire to be challenged with marathons, triathalons, and education. Relationships shouldn't be viewed as "games" in which you have to meet a challenge in order to win the "prize" of marriage.
OK so I think the previous posters have made it clear that this sounds like excuses. Whether consciously or not, he is setting a bar so impossibly high that he'll never have to acknowledge that you've made it. It sounds like his way of getting out of committing. Particularly the part where he says "what if I change and then you won't want me" makes me think this not committing till you know him completely is an excuse. I think it's fear as much as anything.
But. That's been said before and said better by the posters above me.
What I particularly want to focus on is your reply a little ways down -- @Mrs. Harmony:.
You can't see yourself doing it. Forget about him and his issues for a minute. Are you fulfilled in the relationship? You say you know he loves you and he treats you well, but do want to be on a lifelong quest for someone else's self-discovery? You already don't see yourself wanting to do it; are you going to be able to keep it up perpetually? If you marry him, that's what you're signing up for. You already don't sound like that's what you want; the title of this post speaks volumes. I think sometimes we ignore our own side of it -- we know we want to get married, so if we can figure him out, it would make sense to do so. But what if you are so worried about figuring him out (which he is making sure you worry about) that you're ignoring your own signals that maybe he's not right for you? He can be a perfectly wonderful person and partner and still not be right for you, and that's OK. Obviously, I don't know you or him and it's not my place to say how your relationship is or will be, but it just seems like such a red flag that you yourself feel that way, and I hope you don't brush it aside too quickly as you focus on his puzzle. Good luck!
A man of his age who does not know who he, himself is, can't possibly know what he wants in a partner. Sorry - it's not easy, but his words are the truth basically, he doesn't know what he wants and really it has nothing to do with you ! He sounds like he'd rather be a loaner to change his ways and not have to worry about anyone being approving etc., he will probably be a very lonely old man some day. Change and growth are great, but if he sits there talking about how he "evolves" himself every so often, it doesn't sound like he's looking to bring you into his own little world he seems to be living in.
Bottom line is that the truth is better than the lies and being strung along. So take it at face value and start getting yourself together to walk. I think in the long run you will be happy you did.
This man is playing games. The things coming out of his mouth don't even make sense. Instead of him being honest about how he see the relationship moving, he changes the subject about you not understanding him. You need to talk to him again and say cut the crap. I wish you the best.
It sounds like he's just trying to avoid having to commit to you. In my opinion, if my SO couldn't see himself marrying me, then it would be time to end it, in the end, if you don't have the same goals for your life, there isn't really a point to staying together.
Oh my - I can definitely hear BS in this one. I hope I'm wrong...but like others I'm calling BS big time! It's already been said, but it's worth saying again, you can't know someone 100%. Heck, I don't know myself 100%. Nor do I think it's necessary. I like the whole idea of growing and learning together. Preferably as a married couple if that is what both of you want...but if it's not, it's a no win situation. Men like this rarely if ever get married. They don't want to but they love you and want to keep the relationship. So, the excuse ensue!
RUN, don't walk. Or give yourself a timeline and stick to it.
I'm so sorry about this, it's sad and I hope only the best for you !!
He is NEVER going to be marriage material if he doesn't let some of those walls down that he has been building for 37 years. If he can't see that, then you seriously need to let him go. His reasons are nothing but poor excuses.
He seems pretty insecure. You have to know him well-enough? That takes a lifetime. A committed lifetime, in my book ;-). Plus his definition of "the one" is completely selfish. It's all about him. My dad told me once that "the one" is the one you choose to love and commit to, in good times and in bad, for the rest of your life, not some ethereal ideal of a person. I can't imagine being with a guy, let alone marrying one, who didn't love who I was as a person more than what I could do/be for him.
After a year and a half, at 37 years old, if he's not even close to figuring out if he wants to marry you, you're probably better off looking for someone else who's ready for a serious commitment.
The last time a bee wrote something like this, it went on and on for two months. Folks kept telling her the guy was not going to marry her but she didn't listen.... well, I don't think she did. After a few months on the merry go round, she hopped off. Now, I don't know that I think you guy is selfish in that he doesn't want to get to know you. I didn't get that from your posts at all. BUT, I know that after a year and a half, at 37, you should have a pretty good idea if you want to be with someone or not. I just think that when one is younger, we have a lot of time to spare AND we don't have the life experiences to draw on when making decisions. But when one is almost 40, you really shouldn't need 5 years to discover if you want to be with someone or not. That's just me. Explorating and plumbing the inner recesses of our psyche is really an ongoing journey that one takes and does not need another person to know us intimately as we know ourselves. I am calling a slight bs on his reasoning. I think he *might* be telling you that he's not ready for marriage right now. Now, on the other hand, I would ask for a timeline and be a bit firm on this. I don't want you to waste years with this guy....IF AND ONLY IF marriage is your goal with your relationship with him.
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I spoke with my BF again about what I want in life, and whether or not he would be able to provide these things... before we both die of old age.
He is 37, never married, never engaged, never lived with a woman. His longest relationship before me was just under 2 years, with a long break in that relationship. We have been together 18 months and while I don't need a proposal right now, I REALLY want to know if we are going in that direction or not.
He said he is a very slow mover in relationships. He said it takes him a very long time to be sure of someone, and if more people went at his pace, there would be fewer divorces. I said if everyone moved at his pace, women would need Botox injections for their first marriages!
He isn't even sure I am "the one" yet, so I know a proposal is waaaaay off. He said in order for him to know that I am "the one", I have to "know" him inside and out, and completely understand him. I do my absolute best to understand him, but of course it's not 100%. It's all a lifelong process. Plus, how do you even measure something like that? How do you measure knowledge?
I think I know him pretty well. I know about a lot of his inner demons, fears, etc. And he DEFINITELY knows a ton about me. I tell him a lot about myself and he has seen me experience joy, fear, sadness, anger, etc. We've laughed together, cried together, did holidays, traveled together, have sex... what else can I be doing? I feel like I am in the Lord of the Rings movies... searching for something that's impossible.
So now I am in a place where I have to just observe him a lot, and then "understand" him all the time. I honestly have no idea how to do that. I thought this process took years, if not decades. Aren't human beings always changing anyway? Do you ever really "know" someone? And even if I think I "know" him, do I then have to write up a dissertation about it? What if I am wrong? What if I observe something, and then assume it's something else. Then I am wrong and back to square one.
It's not like he really EXPLAINS himself perfectly. He's not withholding of information, but he doesn't sit me down and say, "Monica... I did this because of that. I feel this way because of that... are you taking notes?"
My boyfriend tells me that every few years, he goes through a metamorphosis. This is true. He used to play lots of music and took road trips, and now he prefers cooking at home and gardening. He's also gone from a hippy-type to a corporate stock-trader. I get it. So he said this to me and I say, "great, that sounds interesting". But he says he could change and I may not want him. How the F do I respond to something like that?
So then... what happens if I "know" him completely, then he changes? Does my timeclock start over? Again, none of this is measureable. If I tell him I know him, he says I don't know him completely. He says his dad is the only person that truly understands him. He needs a woman to know and understand him completely before he will commit to her.
He also said his biggest fear is marrying the wrong person. He's trying to minimize that risk as much as possible but this is really driving me away.
Yes, I want to marry him. He treats me better than I've ever been treated. I am crazy about him. But Christ, do pre-engagement conversations go this way? This just sounds bizzare.