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Yeah, our priest said "This is the absolute lowest score I've ever seen." I'm pretty heartbroken and upset. The priest was so abraisive and rude, I told FI I was not getting married in the Catholic church, so I think the wedding may be off.
I took the foccus test...and based on the questions, since there aren't like "wrong answers," because a lot of them are like "we have discussed," or "I am uncomfortable with my future spouse doing..." or "I am concerned about..." if you do get a "really bad score" on it, well, I would be worried too!
but...with that said, I am really sorry that you're upset. I do hope that at the very least, the content of the test will remind you and your fiance of things that might need to be discussed! :-)
You can't fail foccus. Were your answers completely different or did you just have different ways of answering, like one of you was more likely to put undecided than agree or disagree?
If your answers were completely different it probably does mean you and your FI have a lot of talking to do about issues that will affect your lives as a couple, cause you probably have very different ways of approaching things. Not that that's all bad but it is something that probably should be addressed before marriage.
And your priest does sound maybe like he wasn't the best fit for you, you could always talk about switching priests than just refusing the church all together.
The test isn't a pass/fail sort of test. It's supposed to bring up discussion points for you and your future spouse to think about before you embark on the sacrament of marriage. We discussed our Foccus test with a marriage counselor assigned by the catholic church and he went through all the questions that we were very different on. I agree that maybe it is the priest that is not a good fit.
I'm sorry the priest wasn't nice about it but I would be really nervous if we had such different answers that qualified to say we "FAILED". There were questions like, I think its ok to use physical violence when I'm angry!!!!
The point of taking Foccus is to bring up issues that you disagree on or haven't discussed before. I don't think you can 'fail', but I am sorry that your priest was rude. You could try another priest or church, or you could just continue with your classes and see what it was that you two need to talk about.
Maybe a test given by a celibate old man with no formal education in therapy isn't the best way to judge your overall compatibility in such a final fashion. IMO only the two of you can decide if it will work or not. The rest is just hoops that you jump through. Don't be discouraged by this.
@apex: You told your FH you wouldn't get married in the Catholic church so now he doesn't want to marry you at all? I'd say the Foccus worked.
I have zero knowledge of the Catholic church, but I wanted to just give a comment here as well from my experience in pre-marital counseling - my pastor came right out and said that he did NOT like marrying young people! He had a very hostile attitude towards us it seemed, and I have been very tempted to just say nevermind, we'll get someone else to do it.
I know that's not related to your topic, but there must be something going on with clergy these days and marriage. It's sad - when we're supposed to be at our happiest and trying to learn how our faith should play into the marriage, we're basically being beat up.
@smith2be: I inappropriately lol'd. Sorry, but it's true. I'm not the least bit religious, but if someone needed to go through this class to figure out where they stand on issues, and you've apparently 'failed' the discussion, I'd say it might be a good sign? Now you have huge conversation points to discuss. And also if you're not willing to be married in the catholic church and the wedding 'might be off' because of it, you've got bigger fish to fry.
...We're going in for our first FOCCUS session tonight. Now I'm nervous.
It's kind of a shock to us because we communicate very well. Going through the test, FI was like "Wait, I put that?" and "That's not what I think!" so I am starting to wonder if he got off the numbers, because we had a Scantron and then a booklet. It seems like his answers don't match to the questions hardly at all.
But the "bigger fish to fry" is the rudeness of the priest and his downright asshole-ness to me. I'm not Catholic and to be honest, FI is a very very VERY lapsed Catholic. But I AM stepping up and going to RCIA and trying to understand the faith and agreeing to allow children to be raised Catholic.
I really feel like the victim in all this, to be completely honest. I'm putting myself out there and not getting anywhere with the church. If I were a betting woman, I'd bet the farm that church would prefer he marry a young naive little Catholic girl that'll pop out fifty thousand little Catholic babies.
And it wasn't any sort of class. Two scantrons and a booklet were thrown at us and the "priest" said "do this".
@apex: "I'd bet the farm that church would prefer he marry a young naive little Catholic girl that'll pop out fifty thousand little Catholic babies.
Why are you trying to marry someone that believes in a church you would say this about? If you are going to be bitter about the Catholic element in your relationship, it doesn't seem as though you should be going through with RCIA or a Catholic marriage. It sounds as though you are sacrificing your fundamental religious beliefs for your fiance, and that you are not ok with it (and neither would I - proud Athiest married to another Athiest). That's a hell of a lot of baggage to start a marriage off with.
@apex: Maybe see if you can take it online? The online test is very easy to understand and may put you guys at ease.
@GreenEyedMoon: It's not bad at all!!! And its not a class. I think OP's case is extreme. FH is Baptist and while some of the questions made him scratch his head it was actually a great conversation starter. It forces you not only to examine what you really think/feel but then to discuss with your SO if they share the same thoughts.
@apex: Sadly the first priest we met with was an A-hole too over the fact that we were getting married in FH's home state. Long story short we got a new priest and he was awesome. His dad wasn't Catholic and he became a priest so he seemed more in tune with the different religion aspect. Also its REALLY important to remember in the Catholic church that you are asking them to marry you. If you want a Catholic ceremony (which it seems like you dont) you have to follow the rules. Still no excuse for the priest being mean. Can you see another one or talk to the diocease?
I agree with @crayfish... Religion is a huge deal and if you so fundamentally disagree with stuff your FI may so fundamentally agree with, it may be time to reassess the role religion plays in your discourse.
(this is from a very liberal and cynical catholic-leaning agnostic who is engaged to a Southern Baptist!)
@MrsPinkPeony: We already took the survey; we took it months ago. Tonight we are supposed to meet for our first FOCCUS session to talk about the results. I never said it was a class. We aren't meeting with the priest, though, which is kind of weird. Just some church volunteer.
The focus is supposed to just get a couple talking and discussing issues, it's not meant to be pass or fail. It's just a way of laying the grounds for discussing issues you might not have talked about before. It's ok, try not to be so down. Good luck :)
We did realy bad on our s also. Our priest said something like you guys don't have close scores in several areas. Do you have any idea why. I said that well a lot of the questions were compicated and that if you thought about them in different ways, I could easily answer they differently so i chose undecided an awful lot which tends to cause low scores. An undecided is counted as if you guys weren't in agreement. He told us to go home and talk about the questions and have discussions. We than went on with the rest of the Pre-Cana process and no one mentioned the FOCCUs test again. I would have liked to have discussed it with someone knowlegable. Engaged Encounter was very useful. I wrote a post about in May 2009.
@GreenEyedMoon: Sorry a PP said it was a class and I was just correcting that part of it. Ours didn't take that long to go over...maybe 10 min? But we didn't have to do sessions. Is the volunteer married? I can see how that would be more helpful! If its just some random then yeah I agree thats kinda weird...
@Miss Lilac: wow, that first bit was a pretty ignorant statement.
OP, you can't fail the FOCCUS, like everyone's saying. FH isn't Catholic either and he was treated fine, we went over our FOCCUS scores with a married couple after dinner a few months after taking it. If you got such bad scores, either he's now denying his honest answers or he can't work a scantron properly. i know there were a few questions where one of us was like "uhhh... i have no idea why i put that" but nothing major. saying that the "priest" (are the quotes really necessary?) threw it at you, the "victim" of a terrible, terrible test on compatibility and communication, sounds dramatic. maybe the priest doesn't think that getting married in the church is right for you guys since your FH's a very very lapsed Catholic and you have such animosity towards the church. they don't have to marry everyone who asks, yaknow.
@apex: Did the priest say you shouldn't get married? Scores mean little. Our deacon said the couple who got the highest score on FOCCUS had a fist fight at the reception. So it's not the score that matters. It sounds like maybe your fiance just had gotten a space off or something. I have no idea what our number was (70s maybe?) but I remember my husband put "uncertain" on tons of stuff cause he likes to answer every question with "it depends."
Could you take it again? Though, again, your score doesn't matter, it's just to get you talking. Good for you going to RCIA. And don't let one grumpy old man ruin your search/wedding.
@Miss Lilac: Wow, Generalization much? 1) There was nothing to denote the priest was old 2) this has nothing to do with sex, whether the priest is celibate or not. Perhaps read Theology of the Body. Priests actually know a LOT about sex, not that it matters in this situation. 3) Priests go through about 8+ years of education. Most obtain multiple degrees before entering the seminary where they are required to take counseling courses. 4) The foccus test wasn't created by priests, graded or interpreted by priests. It's all done by a 3rd party. How would you like to be called a slutty old woman who knows nothing about your chosen career? Prob. not that well. Counseling is a huge part of any Church Leaders (Priest, pastor, rabbi, etc) job description. That doesn't mean that personality wise they all rock though.
From the FOCCUS website, "the FOCCUS© Pre-Marriage Inventory is not a test and is not used to predict marital success or failure. Rather, it is a tool used to help couples identify, discuss and work through important relationship issues before they get married.
Apparently, the OP did not score closely with her FI on many if any sections. These are sections like Financial awareness, faith, covenant understanding, children, family background, etc. More than likely, this test is saying that they both value/use/save/see money differently, they would want to raise children differently, they don't agree with each others faith, they don't hold the same values for their future family and relationship, etc. All HUGE things. This doesn't mean the relationship CANT work... it just means there's a LOT of potential road blocks that NEED to be discussed before hand.. (or perhaps something went wrong / off with the scantron numbering when taking it).
OP, this isn't something you can pout and run away from. If you do communicate as well as you say then take the results to really communicate DEEPLY about why your lives and thoughts on life are SO different. On another hand... saying that you won't get married in the Catholic Church now and your FI saying it's not happening elsewhere doesn't sound like good communication to me... and saying "I'd bet the farm that church would prefer he marry a young naive little Catholic girl that'll pop out fifty thousand little Catholic babies" is very ignorant and immature not to mention insulting to us "Catholic girls."
@KLP2010-Well, I can say for a fact that the priest we're working with would prefer he marry a Catholic girl. He's said it. He says it makes for a better marriage. He's also given us grief about children. I want one child and this upsets the priest. He's not the one that'll be up all hours of the night, changing diapers, or even the one that pays for the college education, etc. So I say the priest would prefer FI marry a young naive little Catholic girl that'll pop out fifty thousand little Catholic babies because the priest has made it known that's how he feels. I don't think it's ignorant or immature, possibly exaggerating as no one, not even Michelle Duggar, could have fifty thousand children. But it's true that this priest would prefer FI not marry a woman with a mind and a career, one that asks questions and expects answers. I don't believe you've been in the room during these discussions, so please don't tell me I'm being ignorant or immature.
The priest insinuated that we shouldn't get married. I'd suspect this would be a hard pill for anyone to swallow.
"Failing", btw, was the priest's word, not mine. So, even though we can't fail FOCCUS, the priest told us we did. He's been a dick during the entire process, which has made this very difficult.
I go to a different parish for RCIA and love it there. I think the other parish really understands the connection between "church" and God, whereas FI's parish is too focused on what this particular priest wants, rather than what God wants.
If we weren't less than four months from our wedding date, I would consider going to my parish for liturgy planning but I doubt it's possible at this point. My preference is to marry outside the church and have the marriage blessed later at my parish, after I've completed RCIA.
I wish there was a way to communicate to the archdiocese that a particular priest is being a ridiculously terrible representative of the church and being a complete douchebag to people. I have and will continue to tell everyone I come in contact with that this priest is an awful person and a terrible representative of the Catholic church.
@apex: There is a way. You can report him to the archdiocese. Tell them exactly what he said, "that he told you he would prefer your FH marry a young naive little Catholic girl that'll pop out fifty thousand little Catholic babies" I spoke with our archdiocease regarding the first priest that we dealt with which is how we were able to get to the new priest. Better yet talk to the parish you've been going to and they will more than likely help you out.
Definitely get a new priest.
If throwing your hands up and walking away instead of working through it is your answer, then you've got a long difficult road ahead of you.
@apex: When you enter into an interfaith marriage, no matter what religions are involved, you are going to encounter this sentiment of "it would be better if you married someone of your own religion". I know it sucks when your priest insinuates (or tells you straight out) that it would be better for FI to marry a Catholic. My DH is Jewish and I have heard a TON of "it would be better if he married a Jew".
Honestly? It's a valid opinion. Not one I agree with, but a valid opinion nevertheless, especially for a priest, whose job description includes encouraging parishioners to be good Catholics, raise children Catholic, etc. Having lots of babies is also something encouraged by Catholicism, so yes, many priests might be upset if you only want one kid. I think lashing out at the priest or even the entire religion is not a great way to handle it. If you want to marry a Catholic, you should be prepared to deal with these issues.
That said, I think the FOCCUS test is a different topic entirely...not really related to how you feel about the priest. It sounds like this could have been one big technical error, but if not, it might be a good idea to spend some time with FI to make sure you two really are on the same page about all the key issues.
@apex: I understand you're upset about the priest's reaction but you clearly have some strong negative opinions about the Catholic church.
The thing is, religion doesn't change. You might be having a debate now about holding your wedding ceremony in the church but what happens when you have a child and it comes time for baptism, first communion, CCD classes, confirmation, their wedding....it is a LIFETIME relationship between your family and religion.
You can't be turned off so easily by one HUMAN person's reaction.
And by the way, one of the biggest parts of the sacrament of matrimony is for creating families (in the eyes of the church)...that doesn't mean a mega-size family. Your priest just sounds super traditional to me. ...and not all Catholic girls are "naive'...
@KLP2010: Wow. Uncalled for. I was just trying to humorously point out that one person's opinion who, despite what you might think, is not really a professional therapist or counsellor who undoubtedly has a religious bias might not be judge the be-all end-all of her her relationships standing. And it's true. It sounds like she is uncomfortable with the whole thing so I don't think it's unreasonable to say that she can take his abrasive judgements with a grain of salt.
ETA: She most certainly CAN "pout and run away" from this if it makes her so uncomfortable. Religion is a choice, not a law. Thank God.
@Miss Lilac:Actually, priests do go through extensive training, including counseling. No, it's not the same as a PhD but how many of those "professionals" are 100% perfect?
@PinkPinstripes: Fair enough. I'm just trying to point out that there are some viable issues at play in that too. Most obvious being his religious bias - they don't teach you to be a judgemental therapist in university. Secondly, I wouldn't go a sex therapist who was a virgin, just like I would take romantic relationship advice from someone who isn't allowed to practice living their own romantic relationship with a grain of salt. No disrespect to his profession, just saying that maybe there is more to her relationship than his one test.
@apex: Honestly as a Catholic woman, I find you are coming off very anti-Catholic. Catholic women don't just happily pop out kids, we have specific reasons for our beliefs. I have truly never met a devout (younger) Catholic woman who didn't have a serious reason or opinion on her faith. You may not be meaning to but you are coming off anti-Catholic, and I just don't believe it is healthy for your relationship. As others said you can actually report the preist if you don't like him or if you feel he is treating you unfairly. It is honestly not the majority of priests and so I am sorry you don't particularly like yours. But I think you should stop stereotyping Catholics. There is a particular reason we believe everything we believe. Catholics happen to believe children is a huge part of marriage covenant for scriptural reasons, God did afterall command, be fruitful and multiply. Anyway that is probably why he is not happy with you only wanting one child, but it doesn't mean that there aren't Catholics who don't have a lot of children. Many Catholics cannot or don't have any children. It's not that big of a deal UNLESS your fiance plans or wants to have more than one child. In that case it could become a big problem. It is still a personal choice and don't worry about what the preist thinks so much.
Like everyone said you can't "fail" the test, despite what the preist said, you should use it to grow stronger in your relationship. But if your beliefs are that different than maybe you and your fiance should push the wedding back. This is one of, if not the most important decisions you will ever make.
I am really curious as to what points of the test you guys completely disagreed on. My fiance and I had talked about every one of the issues before we even decided to get engaged and he was not raised Catholic, or even religious.
You also have the option of talking to the preist. They are available to talk and I don't think you should feel intimidated by him. They are meant to be there to HELP people. If he is truly just a mean spirited or angry man then I would complain to the bishop. Just make sure you are making your decisions based on logic and not emotion.
You have lots of support here, and if you have any questions about Catholicism there are lots of Catholics on this board who can help you or give you advice or clarify answers for you.
@Miss Lilac: I think they pointed out before, it's not "his one test" it's not written by the preist.
@Dsquared: Let me clarify then. He is the one administering, grading and giving feedback on a test with no real answer key.
@Dsquared: I don't think she's been receiving a whole lot of support from the priest which is understandably pushing her away. I would be bitter too if my priest was that much of a jackass.
@Miss Lilac: Just out of curiousity...have you taken FOCCUS?
If not, it's basically a standardized "test" given to all Catholic couples who want to get married in the church. It is NOT a personality/compatability test. The questions are along the lines of "We have talked about how we will raise our children" or "I feel pressure to get married by my significant other" or "We have mutual friends." Then you select "agree, disagree, or uncertain." A couple are red flags, like "My partner beats me." or "We are getting married solely for financial reasons." Other than that, they're aren't any real right or wrong answers. Like my fiance and I said that we didn't have close mutual friends, but that's because we just moved to a new area and he was in law school. The point is just to get people talking. It's then mailed off to a company somewhere who scores it. Then you basically go through each question and say "why did you answer that?" There isn't an answer key no matter who grades it or administers it. It's just a tool.
I do agree that priests, though well educated in psychology and counseling, haven't had personal experience being married. I mean, some stuff is universal. Like when you go to a sex therapist, they don't start talking about their own personal sex lives. So basic principles like love, communication, respect, etc. a priest can understand and teach on.
But many churches have pre-marital counseling done by couples instead of the priest. It's something to look into for people who don't feel comfortable taking marriage advice from someone who is single, which is understandable.
@Miss Lilac: I wasn't the one saying it. I was only pointing out exactly what you said... from the other side to help you understand why myself, and others apparently, did not see any "humor" at all in your comment. Like I said, you wouldn't like it and didn't. Rude is rude, just because there isn't a priest on this board doesn't mean that you can insult and generalize them like you did. Like I and the other poster you later agreed with said, Priests and other church leaders DO go through extensive training and coursework on counseling. Again, it doesn't mean the personality is spot on or doesn't stink at getting across what they may be trying to say. ps, my comment about running away was about how the OP stated she didn't want a Catholic wedding because of this. This is more than "just" faith (though that's a huge part.) My comment was about running away from a low score on the FOCCUS which means they wouldn't be communicating about their supposedly huge differences in real world non-religious aspects of life.
@apex: ou're right, I am not with you so I was only going on the one side of the story written above. The Catholic teaching on sexuality is that sex has two PRIMARY purposes. 1 primary purpose is for the bonding and love of a husband and wife and the other primary end of sex is children. We believe that it is wrong to separate the two (i.e. only use sex for pleasure). We believe that the only reason to put off having children is if absolutely necessary. i.e. The family would wind up on the street, unable to provide needs, a family member has cancer and time/money/attn must be completely focused on treatment, etc... Typically, sleep isn't usually considered valid... but only YOU can truly judge whether or not you are called to more children. The REAL END of the churches teachings is that we are to be OPEN to life and Gods will. i.e. Not everyone is called to become Duggars and for many families 0-1-3+ children may be all they are called too... some may be 6-9... it's between you and God. Unfortunately, your priest is really horrible at explaining that. As someone mentioned above, yes, it's easier for 2 people of the same faith to marry. I wasn't there so I can't judge how it was said, the context, or whether or not it truly should have been so offensive. The bottom line, if you were offended, you CAN report him! There are def. places to report! I know of 2 priests removed from parishes in the area because of complaints about attitude! (I never knew them though).
Contact your diocese about the rude priest, and talk to the one you like. It's really not to late to change priests if not even your ceremony church. You may be able to have the priest you like come to the other church instead of grump priest... The first step though is to voice your frustration to the diocese and your RCIA Priest.
On that note, I'm confused. If you really like your RCIA church / priest... why is this other grump guy causing you to go so extremely non-Catholic and be willing to "call off" the wedding. (based on your op saying it's off).
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