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Wow, this is pretty complicated. Is there any way that you can tone down the wedding somehow? Or since you are the one who wants the more extravagant wedding, could you pay for it since you are the one making more? He is probably just worried that he doesn't have a lot of cash on his own (which really isn't good that he doesn't have savings). Obviously you two need to have a serious talk about this because it can become a huge problem in your relationship later if it isn't resolved. I wish I had more help for you!
And welcome, btw!
It sounds to me like the two of you need to really sit down and have a discussion about this wedding. From what you've said, it sounds like he doesn't really care too much about the wedding itself and he just wants to be married to you - this is the case for a lot of men, and sometimes they have a hard time wrapping their mind around the idea of spending so much money on one day.
I can see that it's bothering you that you're the one contributing more to the wedding, but he's made it clear to you that he wants to have a more "budget-friendly" wedding than the one you're planning, so is it really fair to ask him to sell his collections for a wedding that he doesn't really want? (Just to be clear, I'm not saying that he might not want the MARRIAGE - it sounds like he truly does want to marry you, but it sounds like maybe he had a different idea as to how your WEDDING would look.)
I would advise that you try to talk to him about it and see how he's truly feeling. He may feel like you're putting too much focus on the wedding and is starting to feel a little like it's more important than him. Or maybe he's just shell shocked because he was expecting to spend much less on the wedding. You need to come to a compromise that you are both okay with. Maybe you can agree that he'll be in charge of paying for X (like the flowers, dj, whatever) but you'll also have to agree that he has 100% choice in what you do - if what you want is too expensive for him, he should be able to veto it if he's the one paying.
I definitely don't think it sounds like your engagement is over - you two just need to have a serious talk about what you both want and what you're willing to pay to get it. And you'll BOTH need to compromise on some of the decisions! Good luck, and keep us posted!
I am going to take the advice of the all-knowing Suze Orman when it comes to this. I don't think its healthy for any one person to pay any one bill. What she wrote in the amazing book of hers that I have is that you each pay whatever percentage of the whole that you bring in...for EACH thing. That way no one can say this is MY photographer I want him to do this. So add up what you make and figure out who makes which percent and then apply that to the wedding bills and your actual bills. It is supposedly the healthiest way to live according to a financial guru. So for example if you make 65% of the income and he makes 35% of the income, that is how each bill should be split so you aren't robbing one person and leaving them with no spending money. If you split the wedding 50/50 and he makes only 35% he is going to struggle and that is not only unfair but it'll put you in unnecessary debt which is never good to have in a new marriage. Best of luck!
Also, I just wanted to add that I know if my fiance were in that situation, he would probably be very frustrated that he wasn't able to provide what I wanted. My FI is a very traditional guy in the sense that he likes to be able to "take care of me". So if he was suddenly not able to afford this wedding that I want, I know he would begin to get resentful and frustrated about it. This could be part of the problem with your FI.
I don't understand why you don't want to pay more than 50% of the wedding when you make more money, have more savings, and want the more expensive wedding. I don't think that's fair. You're insisting he drain his savings in order to have a wedding he might not feel comfortable with even though you can easily afford the deposits yourself, if I was him I'd feel threatened and like you don't care about my financial wellbeing.
How are you planning to combine your finances after the wedding?
What is your motivation for not paying the catering deposit when he has already paid other deposits?
Okay I feel like I can sympathize a bit because I'm in a similar financial situation. I made about twice what my FI did this year (but it changes bc my income is not as steady), and I put 100% of the downpayment down on the house we just bought and paid for all the furniture, and will be paying for all incidentals (paint, moving truck, etc). I have a big savings account, he does not (although to be fair, he drained his savings account to buy my ring so how could I be upset about that? lol).
Honestly--- I don't care at all. At this point I feel like 100% of my money is his money and vice versa, even though we haven't yet merged accounts. So I don't feel like I'm "keeping" him because I paid for certain stuff. Maybe I would if he was sitting at home on the couch every day instead of working but he works just as hard or harder than I do, and its just pure dumb luck that my career (law) makes more than his (accounting). Are you two planning on merging your finances after you're married? At that point, would it really matter what each of you had coming into things?
It sounds to me like you're not really ready to merge with this guy financially because you're still concerned with your money vs. his money. Maybe some premarital counseling to help you make the transition?
Regarding him.... guys don't get the wedding thing. My FI about flipped his lid when I told him how much I wanted to spend on centerpieces... which was a super budget number in my mind ($400 total!). Don't blame him for not wanting to spend tens of thousands on one day because if we take the emotion out of it, it IS a bit silly right? Not to say you shouldn't do it... but girls get the emotional connection a lot more than guys do.
Honestly, in my opinion, which some people may not like, if you want the nicer stuff, you should have to pay a greater chunk of it because it is beyond his means. I can totally understand that he'd be upset that his small savings are gone. If it bothers you now that you as the woman is paying for the wedding, how are you going to feel down the road as you're married and you're still the bread winner? Will you resent him for that? If you guys ever end up having kids, what if he quits work to be a stay at home dad? These are potentially big issues that you guys need to talk about. I know I paid for the majority of the wedding. I was making a bit more money than hubby, but he was doing all the bill paying so he had much less money left over each month. I was buying our weekly groceries and that's it. It doesn't matter who pays more as long as it gets paid. You are entering into a partnership that doesn't consistet of her side and his side, but it's combined into one now. Engagements ARE stressful, but it helps prepare the couple for the stressful times of a marriage, imo.
In regards to his sports memrobelia, I also think it's unfair that he should sell it to help pay for the wedding, and I can see why he'd be afraid you'd make him spend it. After all, you have basically made him spend all of his current savings (at least thats what it sounds like from your post). Weddings just aren't as important to a guy as they are to the woman. It's just a big fancy party with people dressed up in fancy clothe where they have to be on their best behavior, and most guys just don't get jazzed up about that sort of thing. They really looked forward to actually BEING married, but they only go through the whole wedding deal because they know what's what the woman wants.
I don't post on here a lot (more of a lurker here), but I wanted to respond to this since FI and are in a very similar situation. He took a 50% pay cut after being laid off a year ago and I now earn more than twice as much as him. I also grew up in a "nicer" environment than he did. It took him a while to get any kind of work in this economy, so when we got engaged his savings were nil. I don't even have a "real" engagement ring, just a nice blue topaz ring he gave me so that I can have something on my finger (which I love, by the way, because HE gave it to me).
When it came time to figure out money for the wedding, I had a nice chunk of savings put away, and of course he had hardly anything. I wanted a nice wedding, he could care less and would have been fine with a City Hall wedding. So I am paying for pretty much the entire thing out of my savings. He shouldn't have to pay for something that he doesn't necessarily want or need. He has been picking up more of the household expenses along the way (like utility bills and paying for groceries) to make up for the fact that he can't contribute much to the wedding, which he does feel bad about.
It sounds to me like there are bigger financial issues at play that you guys need to work out. If you can't agree on how to manage the money for the wedding, what about when its time to buy a new car? pay for a vacation? move to a different house? You have to get past this idea of having a "kept"man. In this day and age, that is such an old fashioned idea, and I'm guessing there are a ton of women who make more than their husbands. You should just be thankful that you have a job that allows you to live a nice lifestyle.
By the way, my FI is similar with all of the sports memorabilia that is sitting around collecting dust. I would never in a million years ask him to sell this stuff that means a lot to him so that I can have my dream wedding that he doesn't really care about.
Agree with other posters that the two of you need to have a serious discussion about finances, wedding-related and non. It sounds as though you're on totally different pages with regards to your priorities for spending and saving.
I apologize if this comes across as harsh, but you're also being pretty insensitive with regards to your FI's (justifiable) feelings of insecurity. Asking him to part with objects of great sentimental value for the sake of a party that he doesn't want is also way out of line. Would it feel fair to you if he suggested that you pawn a valuable piece of family jewelry for a pair of season tickets to the Yankees? Probably not.
It doesn't in the end, matter, if your wedding isn't extravangant by NYC (or Buffalo, or Rochester) standards. If it feels like too much to him and he's supposed to pay for it, then it's extravangant - full stop. You can't have it both ways. If he's "the man" and it's his job to pay for things then he has the right to decide he's not going to spend money on purchases he deems unnecessary. If it's important to you to have specific things at the wedding then paying for them becomes your responsibility (assuming you continue to keep separate account books).
You guys are beyond helpful. So much here to think about, to respond to. Forgive me if I don't single out some of your points by (screen/stage) name, though I'd like to. I'm really intrigued by that last idea that I can't "have it both ways", that maybe I am being inconsistent here -- wanting him to be The man, and not a kept man, and put up all he can for the wedding while I make most of those decisions. Then, the funny thing is, he keeps telling me (which is also fairly traditional) that he hears the guy basically just shows up to the wedding (he's brother-in-law keeps telling him that)! Though I don't think he really believes it.
I also hear what you gals say - that I should pay my share - a) because I want the wedding a certain way and b) because it's proportionate to what we earn. Here, I just want to say that it was Me who suggested we get married in Vegas or City Hall; it was him who said he wanted the real deal. Go figure! I guess his idea of a real wedding was considerably less costly than mine. And the other big point is that we guys have to sit down and discuss finances and the merging business -- not just where the wedding is concerned. This is so true. But did I mention I have a daughter, or that my divorce from my first marriage was so bitter that it was a huge battle to get what we needed in terms of child support and so forth that I guess I'm holding tight now to what I have and am frightened to share (my problem; I realize now). And this idea -- Suze Orman fan -- that we should pay for all things proportionate to our earnings/savings. Okay. Makes sense. That just means I have to shed my old-fashioned notion about the guy providing (more?) in certain areas, such as, dare I say it and repeat myself, honeymoons, weddings, houses.... this is silly. Even now as I write it and hear myself say it. I gotta work this out. As for the sports stuff, the sentimentality of it. Sounds from most of your posts that I'm being pretty insensitive here too. I guess I see that stuff as his way of clinging to his past. I mean, you ladies would NOT believe all that he's brought into my (or what was MY) apartment! I had 10 feet of glorious cabinetry (glass enclosed with lighting on dimmers, to boot) built along a wall of our bedroom, to house his baseball and horror film monster collection! Then, there are the 40 very wide binders of baseball cards that came along too. Believe me, I'm trying. I'm just a little cranky about it all right now, and yes, I think he should sell this other plastic stuff that he never looks at, doesn't seem to care much about, and yes, I think it wouldn't be so terrible if he contributed those funds ($3K) to our wedding. We have an early dismissal at work. I'm blue 'cause I'll only face a grumpy man and a lingering catering contract on the kitchen counter when I get home. But, it's a new year coming... and I want to wish you all a very, very healthy and happy one and I look forward to our continued brilliant chats!
fignewton,
Your previous divorce certainly explains some natural hesitancy and it is hard to move in together and make space for each other and often causes friction. Also, while I don't agree at all that a man should pay more for the wedding or a house this is not a bizarre idea that you've come up with on your own but part of weird societal expectations. I think if you remember it's those same societal expectations that expect him not to wash the dishes it might be easier for you let go of them. I think it sounds like you want to make it work and that it will work!
My strong advice for right now is to go home and write the check for the caterer, after all he has paid other deposits and there will be plenty of checks in the future to write that he can contribue to more. But this will be a gesture of good faith and allow you to say, Honey I know we need to talk seriously about X and Y but just know that I love you and want to marry you and I'm willing to discuss and compramise too. Let's celebrate New Years Eve.
If you are always going to make more than you are going to have to shed your idea that the man should pay for things. Maybe it would be a better idea to start thinking of the money as your collective money ("ours") rather than "his and mine."
I make more than my SO... there is another thread that's probably easy to find, but there seem to be A LOT of us here who make more than our male counterparts for whatever reason. So, if you are worried that your situation is not normal, it is. :)
I agree with h4baine. When the FI and I moved in together we were each splitting everything down the middle. I make signifigantly less than him and began to struggle. We consulted Suze Orman and started splitting things based on the percent of total income we each brought in. It was way better (then we just combined everything together in one pot). It also sounds like you should sit down and talk about what you each want.
I totally agree that the big issue is that you seem uncomfortable being the bigger breadwinner in your relationship. Thus it seems like you're asking your fiance to make bigger sacrifices than you are making to pay for the wedding. You want him to sell his sports memorabilia, you want him to spend every cent in his savings account...meanwhile, you play your cards a little closer to the chest because you have sensitivities from your divorce and needing to take care of your daughter, he's encroaching on your space and changing your way of doing things... Even if you say "he asked for this big wedding" I doubt he really knew what he was getting himself into.
Like others have said, I don't think you're being fair to him, but you do seem insightful and willing to change your tune. I would talk about your financial future with him, definitely. Most though I would work on your partnership skills. You don't want to spend your marriage quibbling over who is paying for what and what is mine and what is yours. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Good morning everybody! Happy New Year! My FI is sleeping.. daughter is at a sleepover. We had a very nice evening last night; not the usual fireworks 'cause we've been a lot cooler towards each other lately. I was snarky a bit, but otherwise pretty okay. Here's the snarky part -- I told him I see four options here -- we split up (don't start screaming at me ladies; I'm not a quitter, I just generally like to head for the door before I think the guy might); we continue to live together and work out our issues without marriage/a wedding hanging over us; we we get married at city hall; we discuss our money issues, resolve them, we pay proportionate (for wedding, etc.) to our earnings and comingle finances (ugh-more on that in a sec) and we move forward with our wonderful wedding plans. He was nice. His usual quiet self, and said he'd think about these options and we'd talk when he's ready (he wasn't nasty here at all). I wholeheartedly agreed New Year's Eve wasn't the time.
Okay. I seem to have a fear of commitment. I crave closeness and compansionship yet I'm terrified of it. I'm working on this real hard with a therapist. Moves real slow though, let me tell you! I don't want to lose this lovely man whom I love, but since he's moved in I'm seeing all his faults (you know it's nuts - before he moved in, I mainly saw his great points, and loved them all, so I'm trying to find a realistic balance here). Now on the money front, I guess I'm also terrified of sharing (do you ALL hate me by now). He works on his feet and will probably have to slow down later in life long before me. I have much more put away and invested and will likely inherit a very decent amount; he has nothing really but his income, his honesty and decency, great credit, integrity and fine character (all good). But I have my child.. and I guess yearn to give everything to her (for those of you who have kids already, you may understand that aching feeling better than most). For the moment, I have two kinds of muffins in the oven right now (No, not more babies-we don't plan any together. I had cancer some years back-and can't and he knows this)-so I'll have to shove off for now... but I look forward to hearing back from you. Many, many thanks. I also look forward to helping out the beehive whenever I can, now that I've jumped in-head and feet (is this possible) first! p.s. the cancer reference was not in any way intended to evoke sympathy. It was not caught early and was the fight of my life, BUT i'm cured, glowing even!
I just want to say that I understand that you want to leave money to your child and that is perfectly normal and fine. You can give her everything that you had before the wedding or certain other things. You and your FI should talk about that so that you have an amount that you feel comfortable leaving to your child and an amount that you feel comfortable leaving to your husband. Make sure you have a prenup and a will so that the money will automatically go to your child (or a trustee for your child if you child is still under 18) so that it will be done.
I suggest you pick up a copy of Young, Broke and Fabulous and a copy of Women & Money both by Suze Orman. They tackle a lot of these issues.
I agree with both of those Suze Orman books! They are great!
I don't really understand your concern about things not being 50/50. Once you're married, your assets will be joint anyway. So what you're spending now you should consider 'ours' not 'mine' and 'yours'.
If I were your FI I'd also be refusing to spend my last penny on the wedding. That sounds like a really dangerous financial move in this economy- regardless of your income. What if one of you gets laid off and you've blown all your savings on deposits for the wedding? Are you sure he's not hanging on to his sports stuff as a safety net in case he needs the money later?
Neither my husband, nor myself would have been willing to empty our bank accounts for a wedding.
i can somehwat understand where you are coming from. My husband and I come from very different backgrounds, financially speaking. However, my expectations have had to be lowered and his have raised in regards to OUR household. If you expect things to be the way they jsed to be (nice) then you'll end up paying for most of it, frankly. Then you'll be upset and he'll feel, well, perhaps less masculine. but when you become married, if you are resentful that you are the breadwinner, it'll become problematic. If you can't respect your man (whether or not he's educated, makes more money, whatever you value), it'll breed issues down the road. Whoever makes the most generally ends up paying more towards the household anyways, in order to provide a nicer quality of life, right? If you are concerned about your daughter, well, that's what prenups are for. And you can have your inheritance set up in a way that your FI can't have access to it. Trust me, I understand. Mine is set up like that, too. When we are old, we will both retire early and live comfortably off it. But should we hit problems in our 30's or 40's, the inheritance will stay in my hands and go to my children, pay for their college, and when i die, go to them. not to my husband. it's just set up like that.
marriage is all about sharing. it's tough to give up 'your' space (trust me--i emptied out half my closet for my husband ad it was WEIRD learning to share a house) but totally doable. part of me was like "awww" and part of me was thrilled.
You may love yoru man but you need to learn to respect him and from your posts, i'm not 100% sure if you do. I know it sounds snotty, but i guess i am projecting myself onto you. See, i dated a guy once with no college education who made like $10 an hour doinmg contract work. We had different backgrounds, too. I was gong to college and i just started to feel so much smarter and better than him and i started looking down on him, his intelligence, etc. It didn't last. I hope the therapy helps, i can see how a nasty divorce would change your perceptions and mess with your head, for lack of better words. Good luck!
Thanks for checking back in....I am so glad to hear you are in therapy. Don't take that as a dig---I think therapy is awesome and that everyone should go (even got a degree in it myself). I agree that all of these issues originate with commitment. I just wanted to say kudos to you for acknowleding that you have those issues, taking yourself to therapy, and soliciting to and being receptive to outside advice, professional as well as lay. Even though you are experiencing troubles now, with your attitude toward working on it, I think you'll see some real changes in yourself and your relationships in the future.
Thanks Chelseamorning! I can't tell you how great it was waking up to your post today. Therapy is very slow going. I'm honest with myself, but I must be resistant to the changes I need to make.. or something. As for loving my FI but not fully respecting him, I confess, as the last bee suggested, that has me worried and I'm thinking about that this weekend. On a practical note, I've discreetly removed the caterer contract and FI's check from the kitchen counter and we've agreed to talk tonight after he gets home from work, but just my bringing it up again spoiled a really nice two days for us. It's as if being together, without the wedding stress, is really nice and makes me think we'd very probably get back to the phenomenal place we were only a few months ago... 'cept we'd still have to deal with the adjustment of him having moved in and all the money stuff, diff socio-economic stuff, I realize. O' well. Happy Saturday, ladies. Any more thoughts are welcome and if you're not too bored with this topic, I may just keep you posted!
Happy New Year :)
Our situation isn't hugely different from yours. My salary is about 60% of my fiance's salary. We each came into the relationship with similar family and education backgrounds but different philosophies and practices about money.
We've been together five years this month, and have been living together for one year and engaged for five months. When we moved in together, we combined our finances. He added me as his beneficiary, I added him as mine. We share credit card accounts and savings and checking accounts. He has made it very clear to me that our money really is our money, and despite the insecurities I have on viewing it as such, he has never made me feel as though my contributions are in any way smaller than his, even though in reality, they are.
He works in finance (and I don't!), and I'm very comfortable with him managing our money. He's also very open with me about what he's doing and keeps me very much in the loop so that I can feel involved.
Of course, the important difference here is really one about gender. It's somehow easier to swallow when the man in the relationship makes more money, despite how "we've come a long way, baby." I wish I had some words of advice to help you to find some peace with that. I suppose the best thing I can suggest is what other posters have suggested: have a nice, long chat with your fiance about money, uncover what your respective issues are with it, and try to come up with a solution to overcome those issues, or at least have compassion for each other whenever those issues rear their ugly heads.
Keep us posted. Good luck! And thanks for sharing.
I can definitely see that you guys are frustrated, and would suggest using this as a golden opportunity to have a serious talk about money after the wedding. My fiance and I have taken the approach of treating our finances as joint with regard to the wedding and debt. Since our money will be joint after the wedding, it makes sense to approach decision making in this way beforehand (even though we haven't moved bank accounts, etc yet). If you guys were to view your assets as "joint", it really would solve this problem. Very soon, you will be a "we" and there will be no "He paid for this, she paid for that". Your paying for your wedding TOGETHER. In the end, your money will be his, his will be yours, and it is about doing what's smartest for both of you in the long run. There is no "his" or "my", unless you decide to have separate bank accounts that alow each of you fun money every month (in which case, the big joint bills, such as a wedding, home, bills, etc are still tackled together!). You aren't floating him, you are providing for each other - both of you contribute to the relationship in ways that are far more important than monetary gain, and you should respect that aspect of each other! Otherwise, you'll end up driving it into the ground over money issues. Try to take a step back, and have that all-important money talk soon. You guys love each other - and that should allow you both to rise above the status issue of who provides more money. As long as you are both doing what you want in your careers, and supporting each other in the decision, that should be all that matters.
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I hate to start off with an emotional rant because I'm new to posting (not so new to the site), but I hope I can be as helpful as you all have been to each other in the hive! You're wonderful. Anyhow, here goes. I earn twice as much as my fiance. He has a steady job/income, health insurance, and he's a good, hard, honest and decent worker, great credit, blah, blah, blah, so there's really no problem there. But he doesn't have any savings really. Just a tiny bit, which is disappearing because of the wedding. I have some savings, but most of what I have is tied up (downpayment) in my (pretty valuable) home which I bought on my own (also have a smallish mortgage). The rest of the background looks like this -- FIs taste and mine clash a bit; we grew up differently. I'm used to (slightly) nicer things than him and used to spending more. I've lived better, in nicer homes and towns than him and, like I said, I earn more and am surrounded by very well educated people (who will be invited to the wedding), whereas he is not. I'm not trying to be a snob here; just laying the groundwork for the big blow-up that has happened and my appeal to ya'all for advice. He's flipping out over basically spending his last penny on the deposit for the caterer. And he keeps asking me why we're not going to some banquet hall to have a much cheaper wedding. We are planning a very nice wedding, NOT extravagant by NYC standards, but not low-low budget either. And several contracts are already out. I'm pretty creative and am doing my best to keep the numbers well in check, believe me. He has paid the downpayment on the space and the photographer and now -- about to pay it on the caterer. After that, he'll basically be tapped outa cash. I know, in the end, that I'll wind up paying for the rest. (He contributes about 1/3 of our living-housing bills each month). I guess I have not wanted to feel like I'm 'keeping' my man, paying his way, especially not paying for our wedding. So it's been comforting to me to have him commit to these vendors and pay the initial downpayments. Make sense? To me it does. As I see it, when all is said and done, I will have paid 50 to 60% (maybe inching towards 65%) of this wedding and it feels a little funny to me, me being the woman and all. Add to this -- he's got an extraordinary collection of sports memorabilia and old LPs from his dad. On some of the sports stuff, he's been offered $3,000 on Craigslist, but is refusing to sell now, telling me that I'll "take" the money, his last dime basically, to put it to the wedding. Wow! I mean, that's like me saying I'm going to stage a work slowdown or stoppage, cut my earnings because he'll "take" it for the wedding or it'll wind up going to some joint vacation or something. I mean, who thinks like that? I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought it was great that he could sell these things that just take up closet space in his nephew's apartment... that he could contribute a greater share to our wedding. But he seems to want to hold on to this stuff (I know, I know, there's something deeper at play here). So, we're at presently in a stand-off - the caterer's downpayment (his check) is sitting on the kitchen counter. Neither of us will mail it. The caterer says he has two more people wanting our date. I know my guy loves me, that we really love each other. I also know that since he moved in three months ago, what was a heavenly relationship is going to hell fast, with the stress of the wedding and the adjustment I'm trying to make having someone move in on "my" space. I know most bees on the hive seem thrilled during their engagement periods, but I think this is one tricky time. Your thoughts, advice in these last hours of 2009 (and maybe, of my engagement)?